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 A Corrierino Awareness Thread 
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
When I say the left, I simply mean the center left, the establishment left (DNC, CNN, NYT). I am not speaking of all, but rather a conspicuous and public aspect of this cultural formation. A nice vocal chunk of middle.

So more the center than the left, basically. Cable TV left. So this would include Brian Williams, Chris Matthews and Fareed Zakaria, etc. PC establishment centrists.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
you're a bit premature (tellingly so) in severing these people from the "true faith."

Too bad then that this is not what I did. What I actually wrote, above, was describing the spectrum of "the left" and their positions on Trump. That spectrum must include Greenwald and Taibbi, which is why I included them. I did so precisely because this left is hardly attacking Trump from the right for not being jingoistic enough. Almost as if my premise was to demonstrate the lack of the left currently doing so.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Since even one counter-example of a member of the left would refute your claim, it's obvious that you are NOT talking about just ANY people who self-avow themselves as being "progressive" or "left,"

Yes. One counter-example. Where or whenever permitting. But it would still be true that I am unaware of any such example, which is why I ask for an example to increase my awareness. So far, what I see are several centrists from corporate media who are actually attacking Trump from the right.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
the authority of sources like Clapper, Mueller

Neither one a leftist, obviously, and I find it difficult to see how Mueller's "attack" is of a partisan orientation (seeing how he's a Republican). Therefore, this is not helping to make your case.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
We're not talking about those who condemn peace talks with North Korea. And we're certainly not talking about the universal praise that the "cockholster-in-chief" got for ordering a missile strike in Syria in response to an alleged gas attack.

Then what are we talking about? Your claim was about the left (however formulated) attacking Trump from the right, for jingoistic reasons and "etc." Since my knowledge of the left, currently, is either attacking Trump for any dozen of reasons that do not involve increased military action (in fact, attacking Trump for recklessly making such action more probable), or attacking Trump for his corruption (with Russia primarily, but certainly not ignoring India, Phillipines, UAE, etc.) or, as evidenced by The Nation, advocating a deescalation of these international tensions.

And, quite obviously, the left that is supporting the Mueller investigation is not doing so for conservative reasons, "from the right". So that leaves the very same CFR centrists who were mad with Obama for refusing to bomb Syria in 2013.


Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:29 pm
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I do not wish harm on the farmers and businesspersons who will be harmed by the Chinese tariff retaliation. and hopefully Trump does too.



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Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:21 pm
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I've been reading the new book from Michael Isikoff and David Corn, Russian Roulette, over the past week. It's main flaw is that it's almost certainly going to be rendered obsolete within a year (months?) as the story of the Trump/Russia investigation unfolds. The book doesn't even touch on the latest revelations regarding Erik Prince, George Nader and the UAE/Russia connection at the Seychelles, and only barely references Cambridge Analytica. The book does do an admirable job in laying out what the basic blueprint of the story is, intersecting Trump's decade+ history with shady Russian money, Putin's escalating feud with Hillary Clinton over this same period, and finally a chronology of conspicuous coincidences throughout Trump's campaign which align these interests.

The book has several tidbits that are new to me, but nothing so revelatory as to make much of a difference on what I already know about the case. There are some amusing points regarding Hillary's campaign which, in hindsight, may actually be kinda tragic. The book doesn't shy away from pointing out the paranoia at the heart of the decision to use a homebrew email server, for the specific purpose of avoiding FOIA oversight. This paranoia was so extreme that it initially hindered the case when the FBI first began to suspect a system breach at the DNC. There's an account of Robby Mook turning away the Feds when they showed up at Hillary's offices in Brooklyn, refusing to allow them access to the campaign's server out of a fear that they might find something that would "blow up" the campaign - "The Clinton team was so paranoid about the FBI that Clinton's campaign manager did not want to be in the same room with its agents." Even after the FBI had explained its concerns regarding the DNC hack, Mook was convinced that "it was a ruse". This lack of cooperation led to a lot of unnecessary foot-dragging in the valuable months between the Cozy Bear hack and the later, more disruptive, Fancy Bear hack. Also, Podesta was hacked in the interim (because his IT guy sent him a typo - lol!), also a result of miscommunication and confusion.

More hilariously...I mean, tragically....was the DNC's similar paranoia about turning over its computer logs for analysis to the FBI after an intrusion was detected: "(DNC Chief Operating Offcier) Lindsey Reynolds was concerned that sensitive DNC material might leak out and that if information were handed over to the Bureau, it could later be obtained under the Freedom of Information Act."

This neurotic aversion to transparancy not only got them embroiled in the email server scandal, but it also kept them from cooperating with the FBI to try to avoid the worst of its own data breach. I have to giggle a little that they found the prospect of foreign hackers to be less problematic than disclosures to the American people, but obviously FOIA was considered much more of a boogyman than the GRU. Reynolds, incidentally, had to have it explained to her that, being a national security breach, any information turned over in this investigation would be automatically classified and not subject to a FOIA request. (Reynolds, later on, tried to accuse the FBI of not notifying the DNC of the breach until June 2016, or several months after having the FBI explain this FOIA issue to her in order to access the same breached system.)

Not to victim-blame too hard, but the Clinton campaign really was hot garbage.


Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:56 am
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FBI is currently raiding Michael Cohen's house, hotel room, car, shoes, wallet, and swabbing his mouth for good measure.

A no-knock raid on the president's lawyer kinda seems like something that matters.

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Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:43 am
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DaMU wrote:
FBI is currently raiding Michael Cohen's house, hotel room, car, shoes, wallet, and swabbing his mouth for good measure.

A no-knock raid on the president's lawyer kinda seems like something that matters.

Haha. Apparently, Cohen may very well have used campaign funds to pay off Stormy. As I pointed out somewhere upthread, Cohen is not a smart man.

But more intriguingly, for me, is how this raid has prompted Trump into making his most explicit threat to fire Mueller, even though Mueller would not have been responsible for an FBI raid, and I haven't seen any mention of the special council being involved with it. This could be an exasperarted Trump making a conflation, or it could also very well be an understanding that material relevant to Mueller was also seized in the raid. If anyone had a map to the proverbial bodies.....


Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:25 pm
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Yes, this "apparently unrelated case" of Michael Cohen seems exactly like the sort of thing that could serendipitously shed light on Mueller's investigation.


Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:56 pm
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Jinnistan wrote:
Haha. Apparently, Cohen may very well have used campaign funds to pay off Stormy. As I pointed out somewhere upthread, Cohen is not a smart man.

But more intriguingly, for me, is how this raid has prompted Trump into making his most explicit threat to fire Mueller, even though Mueller would not have been responsible for an FBI raid, and I haven't seen any mention of the special council being involved with it. This could be an exasperarted Trump making a conflation, or it could also very well be an understanding that material relevant to Mueller was also seized in the raid. If anyone had a map to the proverbial bodies.....
Cohen's lawyer says the warrant was obtained after Mueller provided a "referral" to the FBI. This would suggest Mueller came across evidence of criminality outside his mandate under the Russia probe and forwarded it to the Justice Department, which then sought and obtained a warrant independent of Mueller's investigation.

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Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:01 pm
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BL wrote:
Cohen's lawyer says the warrant was obtained after Mueller provided a "referral" to the FBI. This would suggest Mueller came across evidence of criminality outside his mandate under the Russia probe and forwarded it to the Justice Department, which then sought and obtained a warrant independent of Mueller's investigation.

Right. My understanding was that the referral was basically an admission that the search was unrelated to the Mueller investigation. Rather he found something and passed it along since he couldn't use it. Nevertheless, he's still being blamed for it as if he orchestrated the whole thing.

Considering how, presumably, the DA probably signed off on the warrant, and the DA (as well as Rosenstein, of course) being a Trump appointee, that one should consider the likelyhood that whatever Mueller found was compelling enough to justify the action. But that requires sanity in an insane media environment. From virtually every professional (ie, legal) perspective that I've seen, the assumption has been that this is probably pretty huge. Obviously, Trump seems to think so.


Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:48 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
Considering how, presumably, the DA probably signed off on the warrant...
Actually, it's being reported that Geoffrey Berman, the relevant U.S. attorney, was recused from the matter, and other officials at the DA's office handled the raid. Presumably, he's taken some dance lessons from one Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III.

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Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:58 am
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Live footage of Mark Zuckerberg:

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Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:41 am
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BL wrote:
Live footage of Mark Zuckerberg:

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Zuckerberg's so full of shit on all of this, none of this privacy stuff is transparent. My eyes are shiftier than ever, and the worst people to be grilling him on this are old people. What a garbage fire, America is just the worst at everything


Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:05 am
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I'm watching this on Twitch and what the justice system needs is Twitch chat to openly grill Zuckerberg on all of his lies. Everyone here, as in all the cool kids, are just rolling their eyes because there is very basic stuff being transcribed and Zuckerberg can just techno-babble his way through this because the old people are all rich and detached and have no freaking clue. It's like I'm trying to explain Facebook to my grandparents, you end up over-simplifying. It's like he's responding entirely off of a script in favor of so called transparency. I want to hear the truth, not the mission statement!


Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:13 am
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Please sign a law that ensures that we own our precious content, make it clear on how to delete facebook data, make it clear what exactly constitutes as "data", don't bury this information in menus but make it forefront, clean up the data breach and adequately inform users if their data has been breached and how

I want to be able to delete my account but save all of my pictures into a file. I'd also like my posts in a text document. Make archiving simpler, make leaving this stupid site easier.


Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:20 am
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BL wrote:
Actually, it's being reported that Geoffrey Berman, the relevant U.S. attorney, was recused from the matter, and other officials at the DA's office handled the raid. Presumably, he's taken some dance lessons from one Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III.

Weird. Is Berman recusing himself from all cases concerning Trump or for some other reason?


Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:04 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
Weird. Is Berman recusing himself from all cases concerning Trump or for some other reason?
Not sure. It's all "according to sources" with a decline to comment from the DOJ.

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Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:09 am
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The Nameless One wrote:
I'm watching this on Twitch and what the justice system needs is Twitch chat to openly grill Zuckerberg on all of his lies. Everyone here, as in all the cool kids, are just rolling their eyes because there is very basic stuff being transcribed and Zuckerberg can just techno-babble his way through this because the old people are all rich and detached and have no freaking clue. It's like I'm trying to explain Facebook to my grandparents, you end up over-simplifying. It's like he's responding entirely off of a script in favor of so called transparency. I want to hear the truth, not the mission statement!
Say what you will about the late, vile Ted Stevens, but "a series of tubes" is a goddamn poetic analogy compared to the crap these fogies were spouting today. I don't know why Bill Nelson was so fixated on chocolate bars, but I hope somebody tucks him in nice and tight after he crashes from that sugar high.

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Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:11 am
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The Nameless One wrote:
Zuckerberg's so full of shit on all of this, none of this privacy stuff is transparent. My eyes are shiftier than ever, and the worst people to be grilling him on this are old people. What a garbage fire, America is just the worst at everything

I have a question for Mr. berg. Does his definition of 'privacy violation' include allowing third party access to messages which are already helpfully designated as 'private'?


Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:13 am
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I can't even have dinner in peace.

Since Trump has decided to take this upcoming weekend off, apparently in response to the Cohen thing, I'm afraid that we're going to have some answers over what Republicans intend to do when he fires Mueller sooner than later.


Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:29 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
I have a question for Mr. berg. Does his definition of 'privacy violation' include allowing third party access to messages which are already helpfully designated as 'private'?
Fuckerberg, see, this is why I don't use Facebook for all but posting memes and existential despair updates. I'm very paranoid using Facebook and this all confirms my doubts, it's an insecure platform for communication. When a monopolized system grows too large the balloon begins to tear like this. It's very hard communicating this to people because there is an air of "how exactly does this effect us?" which comes naturally with all this newfangled technology stuff. This makes it a bit more realistic, like, no one wants their PMs outed, yeeeeesh. I personally don't have much to hide as a result of my internet hermit status but I imagine this strikes a chord. Even with the extent I use Facebook it's always been weird to me how it's algorithms go about themselves, like, shit knows me better than I know myself


Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:30 am
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Attacking from the right.
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Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:42 am
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Attacking from the right.
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Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:51 am
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I guess I can't even take time to sleep without something crazy happening.

What is this shit?

"Just the fact that they're not giving this to us tells me there's something wrong here." - Devin Nunes

Or, it could tell you that there's something wrong with trusting Nunes to be the messenger of intelligence documents, as if he may have publicly misused such documents in the recent past.


Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:48 pm
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And this is why I was concerned about the left attacking Trump from the right.

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Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:24 pm
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that is concerning.... you'd think there would be an investigation before we do any bombing.

although, if he's announcing the stuff ahead of time does that make it less likely that it will actually happen?


Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:46 pm
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Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
that is concerning.... you'd think there would be an investigation before we do any bombing.

There was a proposed UN investigation. Guess who vetoed it.


Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:59 pm
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
And this is why I was concerned about the left attacking Trump from the right.

Incidentally, Trump followed up this tweet by blaming "the left" (the totally Dem witch hunt) for causing all of his problems with Russia. I'm sure if he wasn't under investigation, everything would be peachy in Syria right now.


Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:02 pm
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
And this is why I was concerned about the left attacking Trump from the right.

Image


This likely isn't a result of attacks from the left (even if Howard Dean is indulging in dumbfuckery), it's either Bolton's influence or Trump's Fox & Friends obsession.

Holding the administration's (and the GOP's) feet to the fire over Russia is perfectly reasonable, but not as a way of stoking tension with Russia. It should be assumed that Russia will act in its own interests and those interests will frequently diverge from ours. What's alarming is the potential that Americans may have been willing to subvert democratic norms in pursuit of power. That should be the focus of Democratic attacks on Trump, and while Russia shouldn't skate I would be inclined to play down their actions. It's us we have to worry about.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:16 am
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kgaard. wrote:
This likely isn't a result of attacks from the left (even if Howard Dean is indulging in dumbfuckery), it's either Bolton's influence or Trump's Fox & Friends obsession.


Regardless, people who are allegedly on the left should not be pushing this guy from the right. This is like calling Marty McFly "Chicken". This is the guy who obsessively defensively tweets about how he's the greatest at everything.

Moreover, Fox offers some of the few voices not beating the drum for war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjPJRo0KSas

It troubles me that Bernie Bros and Tucker Carlson are in agreement and on the sidelines, but that the establishment left and right are ready to go to war over unproven/uninvestigated claims of WMDs again.

I don't trust Trump to ethically or successfully prosecute a war. This is the sort of guy Douglas MacArthur would probably find a need for restraint with.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:01 am
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Moreover, Fox offers some of the few voices not beating the drum for war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjPJRo0KSas

Yeah, I saw where Osman just posted this clip at Kateland.

Carlson isn't presenting a pacifist argument here, though, rather than siding with Russia's denials of the chemical attack (which Russia refuses to allow the UN to investigate, because innocence): "All the geniuses tell us that Assad killed those children. But do they really know that? Of course, they don’t really know that, they’re making it up. They have no real idea what happened."

And, of course, Trump would not be starting a firefight in Syria because he feels goaded from the left. It's because he would like to take news of Michael Cohen and speculation about Mueller off of the front pages. That seems like an important thing to point out. Either way, I assume that John Bolton still has more sway over Trump than Howard Dean or Michael Moore, just as Fox & Friends commands his attention far more than Foreign Policy.

Anyway, I'll be happy to see how many on the left are cheering Trump's tweet about the missles on their way. I can't seem to find any.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:50 am
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I don't think quibbling about causality is really appropriate when we're talking about a narcissist who is desperate to score points. You don't shrug and say that the other team has already mashed his foot to the gas pedal, so your team is off the hook. You stop playing teams for a moment and you try pump the brakes.

I don't think that Trump is personally interested in starting a war, but he isn't a pacifist either. If he gets pushed hard enough to attack by both wings of the establishment and the popular press, he will have to prove that his (allegedly) "man-sized" hands can curl into fists. Stop him from doing illegal stuff. Push back on bad policy. But for the love of God, don't goad Trump to say "Hold my beer."

We've been wanting to oust Assad and/or take Syria for a very long time now. The CIA tried a coupe and failed in 1957. Wesley Clarke talked about Syria being on the agenda way back in the run up to Gulf War II on Democracy Now years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSL3JqorkdU

And it appears that we've already been in some scrapes with Russian (regular and irregular) forces in events that have not been widely mediated (although whether this is a failure of the agenda setter or the audience is an open question).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaeDMOWkCwU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0iiAYWX6mc

I am not sure what is going on, but we have seen the is pattern before. We're pushing for payback for WMDs not on proof but on allegations.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:19 am
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
I don't think quibbling about causality is really appropriate when we're talking about a narcissist who is desperate to score points.

It definitely wouldn't be helpful for the said narcissist who was trying to duck accountability. But if we were interested in such matters as actionable events, then the causes and, more importantly, the motives of those involved are always helpful to scrutinize.

Of course this is also a pattern. That Patrick Lawrence article I posted upthread is a good example. He rails against NATO for destabilizing acts like fortifying defenses in the Baltics because that's an easier charge to make when you don't have to consider it as a response to previously destabilizing provocations in the region by Putin. Lawrence admonishes the West for its sanctions and expulsions, as if these were spontaneous acts of cruelty, and can't be bothered to quibble over the causality of who assassinated whom or who laundered which ill-gotten assets. It's much easier to play the victim when you don't have to quibble over the responsibility of provoking responses. And similarly, Trump is apparently incapable of being responsible for his own agency, rather the blame seems to fall paradoxically on those who criticize him for being irresponsible. Suddenly this criticism is what's going to start Trump's war for him.

And that's exactly why Trump blamed the current tensions, not on Assad (assuming he believes what he's said about him), but on Mueller. I think that bears repeating. It's Mueller's fault, Rosenstein's fault, Hillary's fault. Why? Because if Trump wasn't under investigation for collusion/obstruction, then he wouldn't need to posture against Putin. As a matter of fact, I remember you saying the very same thing before RT went down, asserting that the investigation itself was making war with Russia more likely. Again, this is all easier to swallow as long as you don't mind ignoring all of the causes of these sanctions and investigations.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
You don't shrug and say that the other team has already mashed his foot to the gas pedal, so your team is off the hook.

But this is exactly what you're saying. Trump is off the hook, because those meanie liberals are mashing his gas pedal or something.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
If he gets pushed hard enough to attack by both wings of the establishment and the popular press, he will have to prove that his (allegedly) "man-sized" hands can curl into fists.

I still haven't seen anything like a mainstream consensus for an all-out ground war in Syria. I think I browsed an article on FOX which was supporting Trump's braggadocio, sending the right signal or something. It was pretty tepid on actually shooting people, but enjoyed the symbolism of his posture. Other than that, most of the responses I've seen have been of the more anxious variety.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
We're pushing for payback for WMDs not on proof but on allegations.

Last week's chemical attack is currently an allegation, true. This conveniently ignores (as Tucker Carlson ignorantly does) the facts of what we know about last year's attack.

This is also a pattern that we can see. Whether it's the digital forensics of 2016's cyberintrusions, or the downing of MH17, or the doping scandal in Sochi. As Roger Stone says, "admit nothing, deny everything, counterattack". It's the tactic of Putin, as well as Trump, to simply deny not only the facts as we can ascertain, but to deny the possibility that anyone is even capable of ascertaining knowledge in the first place. Therefore, it's all allegations. All 400-pound dudes. All deep state pedophiles as equally plausible culprits in this epistemological chaos.

The UN vote was interesting. The difference came down to the Russians not wanting the investigators to have the authority to attribute blame. The resolution supported by everyone else would have allowed investigators to make conclusions as the facts warrant them. Russia insisted on maintaining their security council veto on the conclusion of their report. To paraphrase Trump, if Putin were covering up for an Assad war crime, would we even be capable of finding out?


Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:54 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
It definitely wouldn't be helpful for the said narcissist who was trying to duck accountability. But if we were interested in such matters as actionable events, then the causes and, more importantly, the motives of those involved are always helpful to scrutinize.


For fuck's sake.

It's already stipulated that Trump is Trump. Get off it already. Stop with the "He's bad too!" nonsense. Yes, he's bad! That's why you don't push him from the right. This is not inconsistent with my argument.

Jinnistan wrote:
But this is exactly what you're saying. Trump is off the hook, because those meanie liberals are mashing his gas pedal or something.


No, Trump isn't even dignified enough to deserve a hook. You don't hold rocks, infants, and the mentally unstable morally responsible in the way that you hold others responsible.

Besides this, unless we hold Trump absolutely responsible for everything wrong in the world, then YES we have to hold other people accountable as causes and this means having analysis where others are treated as effects. This is an ineliminable feature of analysis, so don't object that this mitigates his responsibility. ALL analysis of alternate causality mitigates, at a conceptual level, the influence of the central cause.

We can both say that a rapist is a bad person AND that encouraging and emboldening a rapist is bad. And yes, to the extent that we are talking about how the actions of the emboldeners are bad, we are, at least momentarily, focusing on the agency and culpability of people outside of the rapist.

If we want to rumble in Syria, do we want Trump leading us into it? If we want war, do we have an exit strategy? If we want war, do we presently have adequate justification? If we want war, do we (the little people) really have a grasp the true reasons why we're going to war?


Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:16 am
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Yes, he's bad! That's why you don't push him from the right. This is not inconsistent with my argument.

So far, what's most inconsistent with your argument is the lack of examples of "the left" pushing Trump from his right. Or really anyone. As I said, I still don't see very many voices in the mainstream press calling for an all-out strike on Syria. I certainly do not see this in anything that could be called the left press.

I think you're confused. I think that you may be conflating criticism of Trump's foreign policy and posturing as some kind of implicit call for WWIII, which is crazy, stop it. Like, say, where Madeline Albright (not a leftist, mind you) criticizes Trump for having an incoherent policy on Syria. Yet, she has not recommended war as a viable alternative. Such criticisms do not automatically imply that Trump should be more "jingoistic", as you say. To say that Trump has an incoherent foreign policy or to criticize the various mistakes that he's made along the way in implementing his policy shouldn't necessitate that war is the default option we're looking for.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
You don't hold rocks, infants, and the mentally unstable morally responsible in the way that you hold others responsible.

Well, I think I'm going to continue holding the President of the United States morally responsible, and if you honestly don't then you should be among the loudest voices demanding the removal of his unfit ass.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
unless we hold Trump absolutely responsible for everything wrong in the world

Your zero-sum thinking is really getting out of hand.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
We can both say that a rapist is a bad person AND that encouraging and emboldening a rapist is bad. And yes, to the extent that we are talking about how the actions of the emboldeners are bad, we are, at least momentarily, focusing on the agency and culpability of people outside of the rapist.

If your definition of 'encouraging and emboldening' however includes someone wearing hot pants and heels, then I think you're a cracked actor. If, let's say, Trump is the rapist in this analogy, then his emboldeners would be his voters, donors and political support squad who, knowing he's a rapist, provide him with lots of one-on-one time with young beauties. It would be quite different to accuse those who denounce his raping on the grounds that, given his deep pathology, this will only inspire Trump to rape that much more out of spite to his opposition. "You know how he is!"

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
If we want to rumble in Syria

And, again, who does?


Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:56 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
I still don't see very many voices in the mainstream press calling for an all-out strike on Syria. I certainly do not see this in anything that could be called the left press.


This is, nevertheless, a shift from when you claimed that you did not see anyone on the left attacking Trump from the right.

Jinnistan wrote:
I think you're confused. I think that you may be conflating criticism of Trump's foreign policy and posturing as some kind of implicit call for WWIII,


On the contrary, I think piling on Trump could have unexpected consequences. I advise pumping the breaks because bad things could happen. It seems to me that we've been spoiling for a fight with Syria for awhile now (and indeed we may already be in more of a fight than we know), but this does not mean anyone wants a full on third world war. That stated, I don't agree with hawkish members of either side of the aisle who want to go charging in. We've been fighting endless wars since phantom WMDs led us into Iraq. This is, to my knowledge, the greatest sustained (continuous) period of foreign hostilities in U.S. history. These wars are expensive, engender bad will and loss of life abroad, and get our own young people killed. Can we please stop already with the damned foreign adventures?

I think that some just have Trump derangement syndrome and want to sling poo at him no matter what he does (You wimp!). There are some who want limited, but military response in Syria. There are some who want full on war in Syria. None want WWIII (duh), but I suspect that many on the left and the right want more of a war than one might suspect (left and right) and that the more "macho" we get in responding the more likely we are to enter into a costly and dangerous conflict. And I don't want this guy leading us into any conflict. I like the pacifistic Trump, because jingo Trump seems to exceed Ronald Reagan in not giving an expletive.

Jinnistan wrote:
Well, I think I'm going to continue holding the President of the United States morally responsible, and if you honestly don't then you should be among the loudest voices demanding the removal of his unfit ass.


Everyone keeps telling me that Pence would be worse. Moreover, within boundaries, I like the fact that he has the government at odds with itself, because now we're finally seeing power checking power.

At any rate, you can treat Trump as both effect and cause. When you are criticizing those attempting to influence him, you treat him as effect. When you speak of Trump directly, you speak of him as cause. This is a matter of conceptual necessity, not ideology.
If you refuse to ever speak of Trump as anything but a cause, then you can never hold ANYONE to account for influencing him. It's not either/or, but both/and. Stop complaining about the both/and as if it were an unfair either/or. It isn't.

Jinnistan wrote:
Your zero-sum thinking is really getting out of hand.


Nope. It's only either/or if we refuse the both/and. I am the one arguing against the zero-sum. You are the one who is fixated solely on Trump-as-cause.

Jinnistan wrote:
If your definition of 'encouraging and emboldening' however includes someone wearing hot pants and heels, then I think you're a cracked actor.


Sure. Virtue is signaled. Obvious is stated.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:11 am
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
This is, nevertheless, a shift from when you claimed that you did not see anyone on the left attacking Trump from the right.

Not a shift, an expansion. I still claim not to see anyone on the left attacking Trump for not being jingoistic enough. Now I also have not seen very many from the mainstream press (I've seen one apiece from FOX and The Hill) supporting anything like a full-scale strike on Syria.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
These wars are expensive, engender bad will and loss of life abroad, and get our own young people killed.

Duly noted.

Again, I think that you're missing the tenor of the criticism directed at Trump over Syria. I'll return to Albright to show that not everyone is stuck in the strict choice of retreat and war: "I have not liked foreign policy by tweets, especially the tone of the last one. It’s troubling to me because I do think that what is essential is to deal with an issue from the perspective of the politics that can’t be resolved unless there’s a political settlement of some kind and some way of abiding by the chemical weapons convention which we are all signatories of."

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
I think that some just have Trump derangement syndrome and want to sling poo at him no matter what he does

Likewise, I think some would like to sweep all Trump criticism under the umbrella of Trump Derangement Syndrome no matter what he does.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
I suspect that many on the left and the right want more of a war than one might suspect

As long as we agree that this is your suspicion.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
I like the pacifistic Trump, because jingo Trump seems to exceed Ronald Reagan in not giving an expletive.

Neither one of these Trumps gives a shit. There is only one Trump, and he's 'good-for-Trump' Trump. He just wants a military parade.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Everyone keeps telling me that Pence would be worse.

The question is whether you believe Pence to be morally responsible for his decisions and actions, or whether his supporters will also treat him like a helpless child.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Moreover, within boundaries, I like the fact that he has the government at odds with itself, because now we're finally seeing power checking power.

Yes, our democracy is currently a well-oiled machine, running smoothly over this unpredictable terrain.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
You are the one who is fixated solely on Trump-as-cause.

And you are the one fixated on not quibbling over causality, denying Trump's responsibility like he was a mentally ill mineral.

Anyway, most of my points were more about Russia-as-cause, and the point was more to the effect of how apologists for both like to deflect the question of any causal responsibility in these affairs.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sure. Virtue is signaled. Obvious is stated.

OK. I'll play along. Who do you think is emboldening Trump's insatiable need for rape then?


Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:18 am
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Has YARN really earned all this energy? His evidence for a concerted push from the establishment left to goad Trump into war is a Howard Dean tweet scrounged up a week after the fact. BL's Dukakis was enough.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:21 am
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Ergill wrote:
BL's Dukakis was enough.
Well, thanks. I was really starting to think that hadn't got the point across.

_________________
"It's OK to have beliefs, just don't believe in them." — Guy Ritchie


Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:22 am
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Ergill wrote:
Has YARN really earned all this energy?

I guess I'll finish off the new Tick season then.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:29 am
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Besides this, unless we hold Trump absolutely responsible for everything wrong in the world, then YES we have to hold other people accountable as causes and this means having analysis where others are treated as effects.

Is this supposed to remind us of that time where Harvey Weinstein raped a bunch of women and you opined that we should also consider casting a little judgment on women who use sex to forward their careers because it creates "an expectation"? Why the expectation of a sexual predator should set our moral compass was never clearly established.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:33 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
Not a shift, an expansion.


You reason like Bill Clinton parsing the meaning of "is."

Jinnistan wrote:
I still claim not to see anyone on the left attacking Trump for not being jingoistic enough.


Really, him being called out as a wimp is not enough?

How about the 7th Sign of Cenk Unger agreeing with Tucker?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUFse-4Cxiw

Jinnistan wrote:
Neither one of these Trumps gives a shit. There is only one Trump, and he's 'good-for-Trump' Trump. He just wants a military parade.


Then let him have a parade without a war.

Jinnistan wrote:
The question is whether you believe Pence to be morally responsible for his decisions and actions, or whether his supporters will also treat him like a helpless child.


I don't know. I don't support Trump.

Jinnistan wrote:
Yes, our democracy is currently a well-oiled machine, running smoothly over this unpredictable terrain.


On the contrary, it is being unmasked for the mess that it is.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:34 am
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BL wrote:
Well, thanks. I was really starting to think that hadn't got the point across.

I laughed.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:34 am
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Ohhh it's YARN. No wonder dude's being the sole shit disturber on this entire peaceful, friendly, normal human being website


Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:57 am
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The Nameless One wrote:
Ohhh it's YARN. No wonder dude's being the sole shit disturber on this entire peaceful, friendly, normal human being website


Should I leave Nameless?


Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:16 pm
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:

Should I leave Nameless?
Do what thou wilt and let that be the whole of the law


Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:28 pm
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
How about the 7th Sign of Cenk Unger agreeing with Tucker?

Well, ok. There's one liberal, not coincidentally someone who's not on my regular radar. But I was expecting a liberal who is supposedly pushing Trump from the right though, as per your claim. Since cable news has also been off my radar over the last year or so, I have no idea whether there are actually pro-war pundits "all over mainstream media" who, as Carlson claims, have decided that "America must go to war in Syria immediately". If such pundits are saying this on TV, then their views are not being passed along to any of the news sites, because I still don't see much of a push for it, and certainly not in any kind of absolute consensus as Carlson or Cenk are describing.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Then let him have a parade without a war.

Another either/or, eh? So those of us opposed to military parades are also complicit in arousing Trump's war impulse?

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
On the contrary, it is being unmasked for the mess that it is.

How enjoyable. I've certainly never seen a Russian bot say something like this.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:34 pm
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Jinnistan wrote:
Well, ok. There's one liberal, not coincidentally someone who's not on my regular radar.


Perhaps this warrants a little more "expansion"?

Jinnistan wrote:
But I was expecting a liberal who is supposedly pushing Trump from the right though, as per your claim.


Jimmy Dore (part of the TYT crew) spends a lot of time complaining about pushing Trump from the right. I didn't notice it myself until I noticed Dore railing about it, which he does regularly. Seems to me that he has a valid point.

Jinnistan wrote:
Another either/or, eh? So those of us opposed to military parades are also complicit in arousing Trump's war impulse?


I don't know much about the parades. I don't put much stock into Snopes, but I do respect reluctant testimony (I only mention it because it is reluctant testimony - their bias would be to confirm not to deny, so this is an epistemically promising sort of bias) and they report,

Snopes wrote:
The claim that Trump wanted a “full Soviet-style inaugural parade, with tanks, missiles and missile launchers” was widely aggregated by other online outlets, but we’ve so far been unable to locate any corroboration of it other than the unnamed “source involved in inaugural planning” reference by the Huffington Post.


At any rate, if the jingoism can be limited marching around and waving, I can live with that.

Jinnistan wrote:
How enjoyable. I've certainly never seen a Russian bot say something like this.


Even a broken clock is right twice a day. You have heard of the genetic fallacy, I presume?

And if I were a secret Russian bot, I have certainly found the lowest impact places to broadcast my propaganda.

I am not really hip to getting into another war. And I've heard the playing of this tune before (We "know" it's WMDs, trust us!). I have a nephew who is about enter into the military, so I am not particularly keen on seeing him come home in a box with a flag on it. Perhaps, however, this is just something a bot would say?


Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:15 pm
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Jimmy Dore

That imbecile. Yeah, I saw where he accused the Russiagate investigation of being an extention of McCarthyism. I mean, I doubt he's really so stupid. His twist of facts is clearly out of dishonesty. Most recently, I saw where he said something about how Obama really wanted to bomb Syria in 2013 but Congress wouldn't let him, and he also blamed Obama for sending his "thugs" in to beat up Occupy protestors (because we all know how loyal our cities' law enforcement is to Obama's orders). He's only a fool as far as he seems to expect someone to take him seriously, so congrats on that. Anyway, there's a reason why the Young Turks are not on my radar.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
I don't much about the parades. I don't put much stock into Snopes, but I do respect reluctant testimony (I only mention it because it is reluctant testimony - their bias would be to confirm not to deny, so this is an epistemically promising sort of bias) and they report

My source is Politico, which sourced a summary of the memo written by McMaster describing a parade inspired by the Bastille Day parade. My current understanding is that the parade is still scheduled for Veteran's Day, but the JCoS axed the idea of using tanks out of consideration of the damage to the streets.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
I am not really hip to getting into another war.

And who is?

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
I've heard the playing of this tune before (We "know" it's WMDs, trust us!).

There are crucial distinctions for those capable of discerning them. Saddam had not used chemical weapons in several years, so they couldn't have been verified by the WHO or other party, he did not have a nuclear power willing to send troops to the area of attack to prevent investigators, on and on and on. That epistemological chaos. Fool me once, well, I guess we can never know a goddamn thing ever again.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
And if I were a secret Russian bot, I have certainly found the lowest impact places to broadcast my propaganda.

Did you not notice that we recently got swarmed by literal Russian bots, like, a month ago? I'm not saying it's smart targeting, but it's at least a remote possibility.

I'm aware that you aren't technically a bot. I'm pointing out that the standard bot program is to rail against America, and respond to any constructive suggestions for progress with a variation of "democracy is doomed to failure anyway". There are plenty of people who are simply amusing themselves by watching Trump tear down the Dagon pillars, and if that's your boat, so be it.


Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:07 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
That imbecile.


Imbecile or not, he is on the left, has a following, and (IMO) has a point.

Jinnistan wrote:
My source is Politico, which sourced a summary of the memo written by McMaster describing a parade inspired by the Bastille Day parade. My current understanding is that the parade is still scheduled for Veteran's Day, but the JCoS axed the idea of using tanks out of consideration of the damage to the streets.


It's a... ...parade.

Jinnistan wrote:
And who is?


Did anyone "want" WWI? It depends on what you mean by the question. Did anyone want the easy war that they thought they could win? Yes! Many did. Did anyone want the war they actually got? Probably no one. That no one wants a painful and costly war, however, doesn't mean that we don't always have someone pushing for an "easy" and "just", even "necessary" fight with some other country.

Seems like some have been spoiling for a fight with Syria for quite some time now...

https://finance.townhall.com/columnists ... a-n2469204

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 0e712913e3

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/11/opin ... .html?_r=0

The problem is, "Hold my beer while, so I can deliver some 'Merican freedom" often leads into conflicts that are costly and counterproductive. Occasionally, massive war breaks out from something as simple as a political assassination.

Jinnistan wrote:
There are crucial distinctions for those capable of discerning them. Saddam had not used chemical weapons in several years, so they couldn't have been verified by the WHO or other party, he did not have a nuclear power willing to send troops to the area of attack to prevent investigators, on and on and on. That epistemological chaos. Fool me once, well, I guess we can never know a goddamn thing ever again.


Image

Jinnistan wrote:
I'm aware that you aren't technically a bot.


And my nephew who might get shot up in the next bullshit war, what is he, technically speaking? I'd really like to know, since apparently one cannot question and criticize foreign policy without being implicated as unpatriotic and giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

This not only could be a textbook example of fallacious reasoning, it actually is.

Image


Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:18 am
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Imbecile or not, he is on the left, has a following, and (IMO) has a point.

His point being what? That the left is attacking Trump from the right, right? The point that you're still unable to make? Because the two lefties you mentioned - Cenk and Jimmy - are not doing that, and don't appear to be naming anyone who is more specific than "the entire mainstream media". So that leaves us with Brian Williams, Howard Dean and Michael Dukakis.

So I don't know what to tell ya. How about one name of a liberal who you think coould plausibly be responsible for coaxing Trump into a Syrian war?

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
It's a... ...parade.

Yes. Pageantry. That's what a narcissist wants.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
It depends on what you mean by the question.

Alright. Who among the liberal media, or even the establishment center of the mainstream, is currently clamoring for war in Syria?

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Seems like some have been spoiling for a fight with Syria for quite some time now...

No doubt. This doesn't appear to be much of a liberal stance however, much less something liberals are specifically pushing on Trump. As your links show, this stems from what was largely disappointment among the national security folks over Obama's refusal to bomb Syria. Nothing new about that, Leon Panetta wrote a book about quitting over it. I also wouldn't quite put Ben Cardin in the liberal category, I have no idea what the political orientation of Michael Vickers is, other than he appears to be the same kind of national security guy, and so that leaves The Guardian's Michael d'Ancona, who also seems to be a holdover of Obama disappointment. But d'Ancona still retains some nuances in his interventionism, most importantly in that he admits that his suggestions were really only workable if implemented in 2013, so they're irrelevant to today. "A lengthy ceasefire would have stabilised the region, contained its warring factions and offered at least a glimmer of hope that a sustained peace might be brokered...Many thousands of UN-authorised peacekeepers would have been required, as well as a daunting commitment to the reconstruction of the shattered nation’s infrastructure." My god, what a hawk. What his article does not do is encourage Trump to commence in unilateral military action.

I'll just take a second to also point out what a shit rag Townhall is, offering the words of some "fort-russ.com" (russ = Russia) which helpfully add that "The Syrian military takes every precaution that civilians are not killed". Wtf, man?

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Image

Gee, thanks for reposting the exact same tweet from the same BS Townhall article.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
And my nephew who might get shot up in the next bullshit war, what is he, technically speaking? I'd really like to know, since apparently one cannot question and criticize foreign policy without being implicated as unpatriotic and giving aid and comfort to the enemy.


You probably don't want me to answer the first part, but it'll suffice that I assume he's an adult and a voluntary recruit.

Again with the all-or-nothing mindset. Pointing out the error of your claim (that the left is attacking Trump on the right), as well as the error the claim implies (that Trump will ultimately and crucially be swayed into action by anything the left has to say about him rather than John Bolton) are pretty specific things to cite. This does not become "foreign policy" writ large as if all foreign policy skepticism were as equally in error. I called you a bot in jest (surely someone would have unplugged you by now), but there's a difference between pointing out the similarity in your deflective tactics and actually accusing you of being, what?, "the enemy"? Or something? You said you like the fact that our democracy is being exposed as a mess, "a government at odds with itself". Fine. Somehow you disconnect this enjoyment from the concern that a dysfunctional and broken democracy with the largest military on the planet would have some potentially dire consequences. I would agree with the latter, and that's maybe why I don't share the enjoyment of seeing our institutions crumble under Trump. Maybe the best way to prevent your nephew from getting killed in a dumb war would be a stronger, more accountable democracy. Instead, you seem to think that a bunch of hawkish liberals who may or may not exist need to shut up and coddle Trump before he poops his pants and has a tantrum. Meanwhile, here's Trump supporters Tucker Carlson and Townhall with blatant falsehoods...

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
This not only could be a textbook example of fallacious reasoning, it actually is.

I believe that you could write that textbook.


Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:00 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
I believe that you could write that textbook.


And I could use your quotations as examples.


Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:12 am
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