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 A Corrierino Awareness Thread 
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Jinnistan wrote:
Such sweeping "all or nothing" extremism is a rejection of the necessary nuance that this requires. The intimate issues of consent, which no one seriously has suggested to be criminal, require more careful judgment. I've noticed a lot of people slinging "rape" around, as if this is some rational component to Ansari's case. Since some men rape, then Ansari is equally culpable to bear that brunt. The reason why some people have been fearing the #metoo movement becoming a witch hunt might just be due to the torches in the street and the enthusiasm to lower the criteria for which crimes get sentenced to the pyre. Ansari doesn't deserve the judgment that a rapist or assaulter receives, and there's no justification for erasing that distinction.


The discussion of rape is relevant to Ansari's case, not because he committed a rape (and no one that I'm familiar with has said he did) but because the deliberate ignoring of the messages from a sexual partner is exactly how many sexual assaults do happen. Men have to acknowledge that the single-minded pursuit of sex, badgering women into submission, and normalizing these kinds of sexual encounters is normalizing scenarios that do lead to rape. The woman telling the story didn't use the word rape--she used the words "assault" and "violation", and I get why she used them. I don't get the impression that she was using the word "assault" in a legal sense, but in the sense of being overwhelmed and pursued in an overly aggressive manner. Similarly I don't think that she used the word "violation" as just a place holder for rape. I think that if someone repeatedly puts his hand in your mouth, repeatedly puts your hand on their body after you have removed it, and refuses to let you keep personal space, that person is violating your boundaries and your bodily autonomy. I know that everyone has opinions about how women should respond to assaults or improper behavior, but just because someone doesn't react the way you think she should doesn't mean that what happened to her wasn't wrong. There are women who spend the night in bed next to their rapists; they don't deserve less sympathy because they didn't immediately call a cab and flee.

When I say burn it all down, I don't mean lump every sexual impropriety together. It's insulting to say that women don't understand the difference between sexual assault and a dirty joke. Believe me--many women have had enough experiences all along the spectrum that we can easily understand degree. What I mean is that women need to speak out about the range of their experiences, large and small. The pressure that women shouldn't speak up because of the effect it will have on men is something that has kept a lot of women quiet about a lot of horrible (and sometimes illegal) experiences. I'm not saying that every man who commits a sexual impropriety should be destroyed, but I do think that brushing away behavior like this with a dismissive "Yeah, but it's not as bad as Weinstein" is wrong.

It's frankly hard to hear people saying "A man's career could be ruined!" when we've actually seen evidence that women have had their careers deliberately derailed for not "playing the game". Women speaking out about more "minor" incidents comes at a higher cost to men. Women staying silent (and implicitly accepting) about these "lesser" crimes comes at a higher cost to women. If you don't want to be raked over the coals, behave like a decent human being.


Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:10 am
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Takoma1 wrote:
The discussion of rape is relevant to Ansari's case, not because he committed a rape (and no one that I'm familiar with has said he did) but because the deliberate ignoring of the messages from a sexual partner is exactly how many sexual assaults do happen. Men have to acknowledge that the single-minded pursuit of sex, badgering women into submission, and normalizing these kinds of sexual encounters is normalizing scenarios that do lead to rape.

I haven't seen a lot of people acting like the incident was "normal", and very little condoning of Ansari's behavior. Even the more generous views, that's he's oblivious, are in agreement that it's wrong. The Guardian article I posted was more interested in exploring why it was wrong, to look beyond the more vindictive responses towards Ansari as a celebrity in order to have a discussion about this power dynamic. As I said upthread, I think that this is entirely where the conversation should be. We should look at the tacit ways in which men willfully ignore cues. If that includes Ansari, so be it. But we should also consider those men who are blind to cues, not out of a willful sense of conquest, but either due to inexperience or nervousness. (Some men and women simply have no gauge for social cues at all.) These are the men who need to be reached, the ones who are willing to learn to respond to these cues. A man who is violently prone to drugging, choking or raping a woman, or who'd respond violently if a woman attempted to leave, may not be willing to learn to be a better listener. I'm not "normalizing" that or saying it's right. It would be lovely if these men didn't exist. Telling bad people to stop being bad only goes so far.

Takoma1 wrote:
The woman telling the story didn't use the word rape--she used the words "assault" and "violation", and I get why she used them. I don't get the impression that she was using the word "assault" in a legal sense, but in the sense of being overwhelmed and pursued in an overly aggressive manner.

It's starting to come to light that the term "assault" may have been deliberately injected into the account by the writer Katie Way. There are a number of ethically questionable aspects to the manner with which Babe.net procured and published this story that has even those sympathetic to Grace's story alarmed. The editor of the site, when asked about its journalistic obligations, simply said that they are not journalists. That doesn't make what they did any less irresponsible. This Jezebel article, which is entirely sympathetic to Grace's POV, still has to recognize the shady way in which it was produced.

Going beyond that, I think it's a little naive to act like the term "assault", in the context of #metoo, does not have a more definite implication and association.

Takoma1 wrote:
bodily autonomy

Again, I respect bodily autonomy enough to endorse moving a body from an uncomfortable or dangerous situation, but...

Takoma1 wrote:
I know that everyone has opinions about how women should respond to assaults or improper behavior, but just because someone doesn't react the way you think she should doesn't mean that what happened to her wasn't wrong.

I don't think it's just an opinion to suggest that someone leave a situation that they don't want to be in. It's common sense. And I haven't seen a lot of reasonable excuses for why it isn't. For example, I saw earlier someone say that her leaving means that what Ansari did was OK. I don't understand this line of thinking. If a woman's date suddenly began defecating on his floor, her deciding to leave immediately is hardly an indication that his behavior was OK. It's the sensible thing to do. It's only on her in the sense that she has the right to take her body wherever she feels like taking it.

The irony about the rationales of acquiescence is that this is precisely what these men take advantage of. If a man believes that a woman won't leave, then he comfortably amps up his obnoxiousness. The threat to leave is both a necessary escape strategy and an effective reminder that she is not to be taken for granted.

Takoma1 wrote:
It's insulting to say that women don't understand the difference between sexual assault and a dirty joke.

I haven't ascribed to "women" any such universal attributes. I do understand the difference between some women who think that Ansari committed an actual assault, and other women who have called this ridiculous. There are even a few women who welcome assault, if you can believe it. I believe women are a lot of things.

Takoma1 wrote:
What I mean is that women need to speak out about the range of their experiences, large and small. The pressure that women shouldn't speak up because of the effect it will have on men is something that has kept a lot of women quiet about a lot of horrible (and sometimes illegal) experiences.

Yes, I only disagree in speaking out in the moment. The thing with Ansari is that this moment does not seem fraught with peril.

Takoma1 wrote:
I do think that brushing away behavior like this with a dismissive "Yeah, but it's not as bad as Weinstein" is wrong.

I'm not sure who I'm supposed to be talking to anymore. I said that it wasn't assault, by definition not metaphor. I don't think he should be blacklisted like Weinstein (and to be fair, there really hasn't been a significant call for such a thing), but if anything, this is the kind of either/or-ism that I've strictly been avoiding.

Takoma1 wrote:
It's frankly hard to hear people saying "A man's career could be ruined!" when we've actually seen evidence that women have had their careers deliberately derailed for not "playing the game".

This is also a false dichotomy. I can say that this incident should not cost Ansari his career, and still be completely outraged at the professional damage suffered by Mira Sorvino, Ashley Judd, Sophie Dix, Annabella Sciorra - not to mention the dozens, hundreds of non-famous secretaries and assistants who either wouldn't cooperate who decided to no longer bear it. I shouldn't have to choose between these opinions.

Takoma1 wrote:
Women speaking out about more "minor" incidents comes at a higher cost to men. Women staying silent (and implicitly accepting) about these "lesser" crimes comes at a higher cost to women. If you don't want to be raked over the coals, behave like a decent human being.

We can talk about intimate sexual protocol without a head hunt. That's all I'm saying.


Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:47 am
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I don't think it's just an opinion to suggest that someone leave a situation that they don't want to be in. It's common sense. And I haven't seen a lot of reasonable excuses for why it isn't. For example, I saw earlier someone say that her leaving means that what Ansari did was OK. I don't understand this line of thinking. If a woman's date suddenly began defecating on his floor, her deciding to leave immediately is hardly an indication that his behavior was OK. It's the sensible thing to do. It's only on her in the sense that she has the right to take her body wherever she feels like taking it.


And you could say the same thing about a woman being hit by her husband. It's just common sense that she leaves, right?

Or if you want to take violence out of the equation, I can only say that an incredibly common response that women seem to have to these situations is to freeze up, to go into a weird denial that they are happening, to try to compromise or negotiate to a more comfortable interaction, etc. A lot of women don't leave these situations, and figuring out why is really important.

I thought that this quote (from a Guardian piece) was very on-point: The Mad Men cliche of the boss cornering his besotted secretary is the modern cliche of the pop icon with his adulating, naked-ish harem in a story that never changes: attracting male attention is a woman’s success. Rejecting it feels rude, like refusing an award. It feels ugly.


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There are even a few women who welcome assault, if you can believe it.


I . . . don't believe it. Assault is unwanted physical contact. You can't consent to an assault--it's contradictory. Women might enjoy sexual aggression, rough sexual encounters, a man "taking the lead", being demeaned, etc. That's not the same as being assaulted because there is consent. And if you somehow think that a woman is secretly enjoying an assault, than you sure as hell better be getting affirmative consent on that point.

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Yes, I only disagree in speaking out in the moment. The thing with Ansari is that this moment does not seem fraught with peril.


Women should be able to speak up in the moment. But they should also be able to speak up after. I think that her "morning after" text was pretty well written and something that was probably a lot easier to articulate when not having someone's fingers shoved in her mouth.

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This is also a false dichotomy. I can say that this incident should not cost Ansari his career, and still be completely outraged at the professional damage suffered by Mira Sorvino, Ashley Judd, Sophie Dix, Annabella Sciorra - not to mention the dozens, hundreds of non-famous secretaries and assistants who either wouldn't cooperate who decided to no longer bear it. I shouldn't have to choose between these opinions.


I've seen a ton of posts bemoaning the ruined careers of men who are super rich and, let's face it, will be back at some level of their profession. The conversation about whether these accusations are fair because of the career damage they might cause just seems crass to me. Like, sorry you behaved in a completely inappropriate way in a cultural moment where such actions are being held up to strict scrutiny? Sorry you wore a pin purporting to support women (and wearing that pin could be considered a career move in itself) and someone called you out on it? His "Wow! I thought everything was cool, sorry you didn't feel the same!" text is almost identical to the text sent to the woman I referenced who was grabbed by the throat in the car.

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We can talk about intimate sexual protocol without a head hunt. That's all I'm saying.


There are women with literally decades of harassment, assault, and mistreatment who are finally able to speak about their experiences and be believed and supported. That's a lot of bottled up anger and I think that a lot of stories and experiences are spilling out. Women are in the middle of an ugly cry and all I can say, based on the conversations I'm having with women I know, is that there are still a ton of women who will not share their stories and very few women are impulsively sharing their stories. If you have one of those stories to tell, you literally hold it inside of you and imagine telling it all your life. I've yet to encounter any accusations that seemed purely vindictive, and the response to "finally, someone will LISTEN" says a lot about the way that such stories have been repressed, dismissed, and ignored in the past.


Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:51 am
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Takoma1 wrote:
And you could say the same thing about a woman being hit by her husband. It's just common sense that she leaves, right?

The stark difference is that in a dating scenario, there's much less of an emotional entanglement involved. That's why I think that it's much more crucial to leave as these toxic signs emerge before it becomes too complicated. And I empathize with the difficulty in this. Many men, especially of the sociopathic variety, are skilled at masking their violence in cheap charm. Little hints of indifference and dismissiveness need to be alarms that it's not going to get better.

But, yes, in fact, to your question. I do fully support helping abused women get out of these kinds of relationships. The fact that it is much more difficult for a wife than a date is why I'm supportive of the hard work of social workers who have to deal with addressing domestic violence and lending shelter for these women, their children and the psychological dependency that some women need to break free from. There's a lot of good work being done along these lines everyday that remain unfortunately invisible to most people, and a lot of it is dependent on tax dollars that are always on the budget chopping block. And in case it isn't clear, I also fully support having abusive men prosecuted if they are unwilling to undergo mental health treatment.

Takoma1 wrote:
A lot of women don't leave these situations, and figuring out why is really important.

This is what I've been trying to get at. This really should be the crux of the conversation. I've already made my point about trained acquiescence. Subtle forms of intimidation need to be discussed. Motives should be investigated.

Takoma1 wrote:
attracting male attention is a woman’s success. Rejecting it feels rude, like refusing an award. It feels ugly.

That seems a little simplistic. Most women have few qualms about rejecting the attention of catcallers, for example. I think the power dynamic is more important - "attracting powerful male's attention" is more like it. Is this a healthy motive? I don't believe so, by itself, and leads to those kinds of men who are motivated to exploit the attraction.

Takoma1 wrote:
I . . . don't believe it.

You're probably better off, but they exist. I've avoided them, because that's not the kinds of issues I want to get emotionally involved in. You can call it technically consensual, but I know for a fact that "affirmative consent" is explicitly forbidden in the act, it's a turn off apparently. I don't pretend to understand sexual degradation, I presume a lot of it is rooted in childhood abuse, but what do I know?

The point I was making though is that I appreciate that women come in all shapes and sizes and shades and greys, and I don't like being characterized as someone making blanket, monolithic statements about what women can or cannot do or discern.

Takoma1 wrote:
Women should be able to speak up in the moment. But they should also be able to speak up after. I think that her "morning after" text was pretty well written and something that was probably a lot easier to articulate when not having someone's fingers shoved in her mouth.

Let's agree that Ansari is a dipshit and say that he should be accountable for this. But can we also ask whether or not the night could have been better had she said unequivocably, "Hey, I'm seriously about to bite next time you try that"? Say it jokingly maybe, followed by a "for real though, it's annoying and I don't like it". It's no guarantee that Aziz won't try it again, but I doubt the night would have been any worse.

Takoma1 wrote:
I've seen a ton of posts bemoaning the ruined careers of men who are super rich and, let's face it, will be back at some level of their profession.

I'm not one of them, however. I'm saying that this particular case shouldn't result in a ruined career - but I've been far less sympathetic to most of those men being accused, especially those in the most powerful positions. I've actually been pretty consistent in calling out other powerful men (Donald Trump, Jeffery Epstein, 50 "revenge porn" Cent) who have not suffered the professional consequences proportional to their abuses as well.

Takoma1 wrote:
sorry you didn't feel the same!

I think what he said was "I'm very sorry", but I only bring it up to note how important the context of perception is in these things. It's in these subjectivities where the truth becomes most elusive.

Takoma1 wrote:
There are women with literally decades of harassment, assault, and mistreatment who are finally able to speak about their experiences and be believed and supported. That's a lot of bottled up anger and I think that a lot of stories and experiences are spilling out. Women are in the middle of an ugly cry and all I can say, based on the conversations I'm having with women I know, is that there are still a ton of women who will not share their stories and very few women are impulsively sharing their stories. If you have one of those stories to tell, you literally hold it inside of you and imagine telling it all your life. I've yet to encounter any accusations that seemed purely vindictive, and the response to "finally, someone will LISTEN" says a lot about the way that such stories have been repressed, dismissed, and ignored in the past.

I can appreciate the catharsis. That sounds glib in text, but I really mean it. There is a strong positive potential in all of this, to lance this abscess of abuse and hopefully move forward into healthier and happier relationships. I think that should be the goalpost. But there is also a negative potential. One line in Grace's story has resonated with some women the most, "You men are all the fucking same". I feel for that disappointment and frustration, but it's also being taken quite literally. In this discussion, I've seen where "men" and "women" have become more absolute. "Men do this", "women do that". By extension, I, a man, become a surrogate for all of those who have abused before. There have been some commentors who feel that it is only right for men to collectively suffer for the crimes of these abusers. In many ways, it's almost an analogue of what the MRA shmucks do, by making certain female targets the face of "women", and the surrogates for all of their frustrations and resentments. (I'm pointing out the similarity of this process, not any similarity in the scale of trauma between what women and men face.) Inevitably, we stop speaking to each other as individual human beings, and become gender avatars. I think that we need to be conscious of this tendency and avoid it. We need reconciliation, and I don't believe that this will diminish the quality of the catharsis one bit.


Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:34 pm
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Jinnistan wrote:
How very surprising that the conservative institution which proves to have the closest Russian ties happens to be the NRA.

Welp.


Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:10 am
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A mint article on sexual harassment, shithole countries, and everything wrong with the world

Michael Harriot is just... *swoons*


Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:23 am
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So, totally my bad, but it turns out that I actually hadn't read Way's article. I think because I had been going through so many other websites that were commenting on what had been published in Babe, all of which were very excerpt heavy, that I came under the impression that I had actually read the article itself. Which I hadn't. At all.
I realized this when I began seeing elements from the story that I didn't recognize as having happened which confused me. To clarify for myself, I looked the original up and it became very clear after a paragraph or two that I hadn't even bothered to read it first hand. So, duh, my fuck up.

Now better informed, I am considerably less sympathetic to whatever Ansari's defense was in not picking up on Grace's non verbal and (most importantly) verbal clues. And I really think they are deserving of being termed as more than 'clues'. It all becomes pretty condemning of his behavior when one reads the chronology of the events of that night. There was a long process of her making her objections known, him backing off, giving her reason to think he would stop, and than starting all over again once she became settled. The only way to read this is that he was quite deliberately both ignoring her, misleading her and manipulating her. Is it sexual assault? As has already been pretty uniformly agreed upon here, no. But it's an awful lot more than the simple miscommunication between two parties the articles I had been reading seemed to paint (and this was in articles that were both pro Grace and critical of Grace). The synopsis' I read seemed to give to me the impression that this was a not terribly long moment of intimacy, a handful of suggested 'not now's, followed by a couple of 'ah, come on babe's', before Ansari got the hint and quit it. I gave him the benefit of the doubt since, through just reading excerpts (and not always the most important ones to be choosing) it didn't give me the indication that the episode dragged on in the manner that it appeared to. Ansari had a long time it seems to figure shit out.

One of my biggest problems with this whole incident still remains though. The role of journalism. Having now finally actually bothered to read Way's article, it is an absolutely dreadful piece of journalism (which it isn't). It instead opts to read more as lurid fan fiction. But this isn't the most egregious failing. That lays in how it articulates the issue that it is recounting. It frequently jumbles up time frames taking readers out of the context of what is happening to talk about moments that happened earlier or later, it misses sight of the more problematic actions of Ansari, doesn't place things into their proper context, is littered with rambling and uncertain sounding quotes, doesn't familiarize the readers with the victim in any way outside of the context of her date, almost deliberately writes her as being a helpless victim. This is just scratching the surface. Ways' failure, in so many ways, to get this article to resonate the way it maybe should have, is likely the root cause of why I found so many articles in defense of it seriously lacking (they ultimately focus on Ansari's arrogant behaviour, but not the surrounding elements that make what he does more troubling than just him being a boorish cad) , and those dubious towards it more reasonable (it doesn't convince readers of anything beyond the details, leaves so much out of the story, doesn't do its protagonist justice, focuses on luridness instead of the greater discussion to be had and basically dares those not already convinced by the metoo movement to come out blazing). It is too simple minded to be read on its face as anything more the an unpleasant fluff piece, which considering the discussion it has opened up in spite of itself, is an indictment of how little Way seemed to understand the potential importance of what she was writing.

I'm sure many here have already read it, but there is a Jezebel article which I believe does a considerably better job of articulating the kinds of issues I found with the Babe piece, how it drops the ball on the more substantive elements of the story and leaves the victim vulnerable to initial critics, like myself, who found themselves a little worried over an incident which seemed to have become sensationalized for maybe all of the wrong reasons.

Now this isn't to say that I still don't have some reservations about using Ansari's name in the piece. I generally believe that more care needs to be used in such matters since I do feel the public airing of these stories could be problematic, not because I have issues with victims speaking out, but because I have worries about how responsibly journalism will continue to be in vetting these stories. The shoddiness of the Babe article, does not help these concerns of mine. But I do feel the article, once read, at least presents me with enough details that I'm certainly not seeing Ansari as some hapless victim here. He should have known better. And while he might not be the standard villain that the metoo movement has been exposing, I can at least rest a little easier knowing that he did a lot of shitty things to himself and his date to get where he is now.


Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:06 am
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though this story doesn't de-legitimatize the MeToo movement for me, I'm still wary that it might for the kinds of people looking to paint accusers in this worst possible way (assuming the worst of those critics' intentions). and I'm wondering if focusing too much on that takes away from talking about some of the issues that ought to be raised about the story i.e. the issues that Takoma has brought up.

I still know its not top-tier Men Abusing Their Power but because its not top-tier, it's far more familiar to a lot of women too.


Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:41 am
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crumbsroom wrote:
One of my biggest problems with this whole incident still remains though. The role of journalism. Having now finally actually bothered to read Way's article, it is an absolutely dreadful piece of journalism (which it isn't).

I had read the piece immediately, and feel that its problems are almost designed to provoke the wrong reaction. This has only been confirmed in the more recent comments from Katie Way herself. The "assault" language appears to have been her idea, and she hasn't been shy in admitting the reason: clicks. Also, despite the fact that there's no shortage of examples of Ansari being an utter dickhead, there's other details that don't have much relevance to the issues Grace is trying to focus on, leading me to believe that it was included to humiliate Ansari further than the already damning evidence of his persistence.

The two things that have altered my initial impression have been 1) Ansari's book - I saw someone describe him as acting like a freshman horndog, and I was willing to believe his obliviousness was due to a lack of experience with women, but the book seems to make clear that he's far more familiar with exactly the things he's claiming to be clueless about; and 2) My reaction of noting what Grace had the power to do - like put her foot down or leave - should have been part of the point of what needed to be discussed, and the Babe article doesn't question her acquiescence so much as take it as a matter of fact. Instead, framed as it is as a he said/she said, we can't point out her agency without somehow condoning Ansari's behavior, and visa versa. Therefore, we can't talk about improving the sexual politics in these interactions without taking sides. Suggesting that young women should exercise their agency gets called victim-blaming, but since the article is framed as '"assault", her agency is paramount to that context.

Way seems to have gotten herself in her own trouble by exercising her own ageism and beauty-shaming a TV anchor. You know, like a true feminist does. Her self-congratulatory "Not too shabby!" is pure Trump-tweet worthy. Katie Way just might end up coming off as the worst person in this whole story.


Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:10 pm
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Michael Douglas, Alleged Harassment, Media and the #MeToo Moment

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Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:01 pm
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This whole sexual harrassment thing seems like crying wolf to me. Everyone is now doing it. You can't even touch a person without them writing a whole book about their experiences.


Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:33 pm
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Jinnistan wrote:


I'm definitely not a fan. And the fact that Michael Wolf and Way have been the two most talked about 'journalists' of the past month says something. Or rather, I really hope it doesn't.


Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:17 am
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crumbsroom wrote:
One of my biggest problems with this whole incident still remains though. The role of journalism. Having now finally actually bothered to read Way's article, it is an absolutely dreadful piece of journalism (which it isn't). It instead opts to read more as lurid fan fiction. But this isn't the most egregious failing. That lays in how it articulates the issue that it is recounting. It frequently jumbles up time frames taking readers out of the context of what is happening to talk about moments that happened earlier or later, it misses sight of the more problematic actions of Ansari, doesn't place things into their proper context, is littered with rambling and uncertain sounding quotes, doesn't familiarize the readers with the victim in any way outside of the context of her date, almost deliberately writes her as being a helpless victim. This is just scratching the surface.


While the article was really poorly written, my focus was purely on the quotes from the woman herself, and those made me feel almost sick to read because I can't even count the number of times that women in my social circle have told similar stories using similar language. There's this horrible middle ground for a lot of women between ,for lack of a better term, obvious assaults and just a bad date/lack of chemistry/etc. There are really upsetting things that happen to women (and men--I realize that I default to referring to victims as women because women are the ones I hear these stories from) and not a great deal of language to use for it. To me, what happened to the woman in the story isn't sexual assault, but neither is it merely someone acting boorish or rude.

I'm also going to step away from this conversation because it is very challenging for me emotionally. The last time that a man made me feel threatened, ignored signals I was giving, and invaded my physical space was . . . 5 days ago. It was a non-sexual situation, but very upsetting. Why didn't I run away? (1) I was there for business purposes, and didn't want to sour the relationship, (2) I realized too late that I was physically outnumbered and isolated in a closed in space, and my inclination in that kind of situation is to deescalate and hope that if I stay calm everyone else will, (3) I've been given messages all my life to not overreact, make a big deal, take things out of proportion, give people the benefit of a doubt, not be that girl who falsely screams "harassment" etc, and so I give people the benefit of the doubt long after they stop deserving it.

It's exhausting to experience things like this, or hear about my friends experiencing things like this, literally every day. Among the small group of women with whom I regularly communicate (~40 women), a calendar marked with a non-minor incident with a man would take up every day. I've just gotten to a point of exhaustion with it. It's hard to have a conversation that is nuanced when I just feel like screaming that I just want men to stop putting their hands on me and my friends without our permission.


Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:43 am
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Dan Rather just started working for The Young Turks here:


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Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:01 pm
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Since the Russian bots have arrived here at the Corrie, let's try to involve them in some of the ongoing discussion.

For instance, let's ask a simple question, kind of a yes or no situation: Could it be a coincidence when Russian bots are employed to sway public opinion against the special council's Trump-Russia investigation? Lulz, perchance? Is 'shame' a programmable algorithm?


Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:01 am
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I'm going to chalk that up as a "no".


Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:43 am
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I took a step back and tried to really just process how ridiculous everything is and it's like idk anymore. I actually do not know. Like, seriously, who is writing this script!


Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:56 am
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The Nameless One wrote:
Like, seriously, who is writing this script!
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:01 am
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:22 am
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One of Harvey Weinstein's personal assistants speaks, and now I need some kind of radiotherapy to singe the phrase "erectile dysfunction injections" out of my synapses.


Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:26 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
One of Harvey Weinstein's personal assistants speaks, and now I need some kind of radiotherapy to singe the phrase "erectile dysfunction injections" out of my synapses.
What, is he freebasing viagra now? This script!


Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:34 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
One of Harvey Weinstein's personal assistants speaks, and now I need some kind of radiotherapy to singe the phrase "erectile dysfunction injections" out of my synapses.
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:35 am
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I'm pretty sure (I hope) the injections are inserted somewhere else, but needless to say the image remains like an unshakeable stain.


Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:55 am
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Dear God that was an unpleasant google image search


Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:01 am
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The Nameless One wrote:
Dear God that was an unpleasant google image search

That's the spirit. Taking one for the team.


Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:23 am
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Travisbacle and Rebeccatup - just....don't even try, k?


Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:44 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
I'm pretty sure (I hope) the injections are inserted somewhere else, but needless to say the image remains like an unshakeable stain.
If it’s alprostadil we’re talking about, I’ve got some bad news for you: That Donald Duck gif is more medically accurate than you might think. It’s administered either as an injection into the shaft or (and somehow it can get worse) a suppository DIRECTLY INTO THE URETHRA.

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Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:26 am
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BL wrote:
If it’s alprostadil we’re talking about, I’ve got some bad news for you: That Donald Duck gif is more medically accurate than you might think. It’s administered either as an injection into the shaft or (and somehow it can get worse) a suppository DIRECTLY INTO THE URETHRA.

It seems that vigourous friction to the applied area would be discouraged, rendering the procedure ineffective. Maybe Harvey likes the sting as much as he gets off on the shame and shock of masturbating on surprised women. I'm not a doctor, by the way.


Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:31 am
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BL wrote:
If it’s alprostadil we’re talking about, I’ve got some bad news for you: That Donald Duck gif is more medically accurate than you might think. It’s administered either as an injection into the shaft or (and somehow it can get worse) a suppository DIRECTLY INTO THE URETHRA.
See, this is what I was googling for

Don't do that


Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:46 am
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I guess this is news

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/us/politics/trump-mueller-special-counsel-russia.html

but mostly I just want this to wrap the hell up


Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:37 pm
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Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
I guess this is news

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/us/politics/trump-mueller-special-counsel-russia.html

but mostly I just want this to wrap the hell up

This is a good analysis of this news.

Experienced prosecuters have been saying all week that signs of Mueller attempting to negotiate a Trump interview are indications that the investigation is indeed wrapping up, but this latest scoop makes it even more clear that an obstruction charge will be brought to Congress (who may or may not act on it). That article points out that the main difficulty in obstruction is demonstrating criminal or corrupt intent. Of course, Trump casually admitted this intent to Lester Holt, but the question was whether he could weasel out of it by claiming other reasons for firing Comey other than to end the Russian influence investigation. Basically, considering what we now know about Trump's attempts to prevent Sessions from recusing himself, his badgering of Republican senators to push back against the investigation, and now the revelation that he actually attempted to fire Mueller, there's very little ambiguity left whether Trump was intentional or not in trying to obstruct this investigation. (And plus, the recent hubbabaloo over this "secret" Nunes memo, touted nearly entirely by Congressmen who have already called for Mueller to be fired, is a pretty straightforward indication of panic among the minions.)

I also liked how the Joe Arpaio situation has come to bite Trump back. In establishing a pattern of behavior, the Arpaio parden illustrates how Trump tried to interfere with a Justice case, was explained precisely why he should not by Sessions, and then chose to act on his executive power anyway. That pardon is most likely perfectly legal, but the hubris it shows lends credence to the motive for firing Comey.


Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:52 am
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I'm still going to prepare myself for the possibility that Trump's actions fall just short of impeachable.

and I guess they could be impeachable but then the Republicans in Congress do nothing. and I guess that would mean the midterms would boil down to "impeach Trump, y/n?" which would be damn tiring.


Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:25 am
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Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
I guess they could be impeachable but then the Republicans in Congress do nothing.

This is the more likely scenario. I have no doubt that his obstruction would be an actual impeachable offense, but as commentators have recently noted, the definition of impeachable happens to be whatever Congress is willing to make it. I have a bit more faith in the Senate, which doesn't have nearly as many of these Freedom Caucus folks who are railing against Mueller, but the fact that right-wing media is actually trying to claim that obstruction of justice is something that a president is inherently immune to - despite the fact that both Nixon and Clinton had obstruction listed in their articles of impeachment - shows the extent to which the GOP will try to resist such a charge. (Or maybe it's more like a trial balloon, like claiming that collusion with a foreign government isn't actually illegal, a claim which seems to have evaporated rather quickly from public credulity.)


Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:05 am
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Of course, it's good to get outside of Trump, and, at the moment, with Turkey in open warfare with the Kurds, the Taliban resurging its aggression and whatever the hell it is that MBS is doing, there's a lot of other worrisome developments lately.

Personally, I was just happy to see Michelle Goldberg hand Bill Maher his ass for trying to support Trump's decision to strongarm the Palestinians. I know Maher is deeply invested in his bullshit atheism, but he should probably just admit that he's Jewish at this point. Not just having a Jewish mother, but that he's strongly supportive of Zionism - a fundamentally religious concept - and this informs both his hostility to a two-state solution and his refusal to question illegal settlements in Religulous while standing in an illegal religious settlement next to a convicted religious terrorist (Yehuda Etzion). (The only Jewish person Maher derided in the film was an anti-Zionist rabbi who believes that both Israel and the Temple are abstract, transcendent states - a view that an atheist who opposes religion-based nationalist policy would be more accommodating to.)


Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:17 am
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Richard Roeper haters will love this.

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Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:19 am
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I'm not sure if there's a better euphemism for "bullshit artist" than "brand ambassador".


Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:05 am
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The NYT article linked in here is a monster. Over 15% of Twitter accounts, approx. 60 million, are fake, bought and sold for the illusion of influence. So sad. And Twitter refuses to clean them up because they're also useful for their own bullshit illusion, making their user growth appear greater than it is. People simply need to start realizing that all of this data telemetry - the perceived value of views, clicks, likes and followers - is all a rigged casino. Like Bitcoin, we should be suspicious of any platform where the overwhelming majority of "winners" happen to be douchebags.


Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:12 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
The NYT article linked in here is a monster. Over 15% of Twitter accounts, approx. 60 million, are fake, bought and sold for the illusion of influence. So sad. And Twitter refuses to clean them up because they're also useful for their own bullshit illusion, making their user growth appear greater than it is. People simply need to start realizing that all of this data telemetry - the perceived value of views, clicks, likes and followers - is all a rigged casino. Like Bitcoin, we should be suspicious of any platform where the overwhelming majority of "winners" happen to be douchebags.

Mark Cuban said pretty much the same thing, and I agree, but like you said, the resulting loss of all the value-inflating fakeness would probably tank the company.

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Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:02 am
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"So tonight I call on Congress to empower every cabinet secretary with the authority to reward good workers and to remove federal employees who undermine the public trust, or fail the American people."

that sounds eerie.


Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:33 pm
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Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
"So tonight I call on Congress to empower every cabinet secretary with the authority to reward good workers and to remove federal employees who undermine the public trust, or fail the American people."

that sounds eerie.
"Commander, execute the biggest, most beautiful Order 66 you've ever seen."

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Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:55 pm
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Coincidentally, just started reading Snyder's On Tyranny.

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Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:02 am
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Looks like the GOP has literally slammed into garbage.

I haven't even begun to post about all of the shit that went down this week (so far), but anyone paying attention is likely as frayed as I am over all the nonsense. I don't even know where to begin - Russian sanctions, Puerto Rico, 3/4s cut in green energy - and not to mention all of the Nunes memo nonsense.

Nunes has apparently not even read the classified material from which the memo was drafted. The Pubs on the HIC declined the opportunity to read those materials or be briefed on them. They are calling for "total transparancy", except voting to keep the Dem response in the dark. As if Trump's threats to fire Mueller, Sessions, Rosenrod and successfully removing McCabe and two of the top FBI lawyers didn't give anyone the sense of obstruction, then we helpfully have John Kelly browbeating Justice officials who are stepping out of line with Trump on releasing the memo. And as Trey Gowdy proves, the GOP would rather resign from office than attempt to stand up to all of this legal interference. Now there's even word that Trump may be thinking of actually prosecuting Mueller and his team in addition to firing them.

The only thing more jawdropping than this week's events have been how few jaws seem to be dropped over them.


Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:38 am
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Meanwhile in Germany, it looks like some people have been watching Raiders of the Lost Ark for the wrong reasons.

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Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:42 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
Looks like the GOP has literally slammed into garbage.

I haven't even begun to post about all of the shit that went down this week (so far), but anyone paying attention is likely as frayed as I am over all the nonsense. I don't even know where to begin - Russian sanctions, Puerto Rico, 3/4s cut in green energy - and not to mention all of the Nunes memo nonsense.

Nunes has apparently not even read the classified material from which the memo was drafted. The Pubs on the HIC declined the opportunity to read those materials or be briefed on them. They are calling for "total transparancy", except voting to keep the Dem response in the dark. As if Trump's threats to fire Mueller, Sessions, Rosenrod and successfully removing McCabe and two of the top FBI lawyers didn't give anyone the sense of obstruction, then we helpfully have John Kelly browbeating Justice officials who are stepping out of line with Trump on releasing the memo. And as Trey Gowdy proves, the GOP would rather resign from office than attempt to stand up to all of this legal interference. Now there's even word that Trump may be thinking of actually prosecuting Mueller and his team in addition to firing them.

The only thing more jawdropping than this week's events have been how few jaws seem to be dropped over them.


The lack of jaw dropping on my end may have to do with the fact that as far as I'm concerned the writing has been on the wall for this sort of behaviour for weeks, if not months. I'm now just fully immersed in a rage. As much as I loathe Bill Maher, and prefer to disagree with everything he says on principal, his claim over a year ago that the GOP is involved in what is essentially a slow moving coup haunts me, since I can't help shake the feeling that this is exactly the kind of stink that this is giving off. Maybe not happening as far back as he was saying it, but it is absolutely become more and more concerning over the past month. At this point, they have dug themselves in so deep in their acceptance and explanations for Trumps behavior, that I hardly see any way back for them. No matter what happens in the investigation into Trump, or how irrefutable some piece of evidence regarding his guilt might eventually be, there is no reason to even believe containment of this president is ever going to happen, let alone impeachment. He's going nowhere. And the GOP will defend him. The only reason to even court the hope we will ever be rid of him is if we hold these fucking scumbags to the standard of those politicians that came before. Which at this point would be ridiculous. Because they are fucking scumbags. I can't even tell if they ust don't care that they are dismantling the US's democratic institutions, think the damage they are doing is repairable, or if they are simply just going for it since, why not, nothing is going to stop them it appears.

The only hope for finding some remedy in regards to the current situation is the 2018 elections. But I don't even want to think of what horrible sort of things will happen between now and then to make even that seem a completely hopeless dream.


Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:59 am
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crumbsroom wrote:
The lack of jaw dropping on my end may have to do with the fact that as far as I'm concerned the writing has been on the wall for this sort of behaviour for weeks, if not months. I'm now just fully immersed in a rage.

There is a decidedly 'frog-in-the-skillet' aspect to all of this. I joked a couple of months ago about the right-wing media attempts to claim that collusion with a foreign government isn't actually a crime (so why continue to deny it?) and that a president, by nature of his office, cannot obstruct justice (despite both Nixon and Clinton having obstruction listed in their articles for impeachment). There's a side of me that wants to savor the desperation of this chicken-shit sophism, but another side that, noticing that no one else seems to be laughing at the absurdity of these antics, believes there just might be enough suckers for them to get away with it.

This week has been particularly egregious. Starting with learning about Mueller being fired, only stopped by a lawyer who found the limits of his self-respect. Then we learn that Trump has attempted to either fire or force the resignation of both Sessions and Rosenstick. The head of the FBI threatened to walk if they fired his deputy, but then the deputy was just forced into early retirement anyway. Plus two top-level lawyers at the FBI have been removed. This all follows a pattern of removing or reassigning officials at Justice and State for purely political reasons, with Trump unprecedently asking their party affiliation and whom they voted for. The John Kelly thing is beyond the pale though. Having your Chief of Staff scold Justice officials for doing their nonpartisan jobs is extraordinary, even by Trump's standards. This bullying of the FBI and DoJ is a whole new ballgame that I don't think we've seen in modern American history.

As an aside, but an apt example of Trump's insanity, he refers to Rod Rosenthunder as "the Democrat from Baltimore". Rosenstein is actually a Republican. Trump's logic is that "I've never met a Republican from Baltimore". This is how fucked in the head he is. And this is also how easy it is for right-wing media to characterize Mueller (also a registered Republican) as a pro-Clinton conspirator. It's madness.

crumbsroom wrote:
The only hope for finding some remedy in regards to the current situation is the 2018 elections. But I don't even want to think of what horrible sort of things will happen between now and then to make even that seem a completely hopeless dream.

Oh. I have more good news for you then. The DNC CEO just resigned, most likely due to the sad fact that the DNC has only managed to fundraise about half of what the RNC raised in 2017. So....recap: These sorry fucks can't even raise money against the least popular president in goddamn history.


Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:16 am
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I want to think that it is still too early to be despondent about the midterms.... but even if there was no reason to be despondent, I'm sure nobody wants to wait that long for there to be any accountability either.

I can't think of anything else to add that hasn't already been said. :/


Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:47 pm
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Things might improve if the Dems actually behave as if they were a leftist opposition party and not moderate corporate Republicans.

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Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:06 pm
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MadMan wrote:
Things might improve if the Dems actually behave as if they were a leftist opposition party and not moderate corporate Republicans.


that's the hope though I still fear that would lose support from the kinds of people who voted for Hillary because they though Bernie Sanders was too radical. (but I wouldn't mind being proved wrong)


Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:35 pm
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MadMan wrote:
Things might improve if the Dems actually behave as if they were a leftist opposition party and not moderate corporate Republicans.


This is more than a reasonable complaint about the Democrats on its own, but at this point I would still settle for them being moderate corporate Republicans, if they could at least not be directionless, disorganized, toothless, moronic moderate corporate Republicans. You know, a party that at least has some kind of vision. Anything. For Christ's sake.


Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:34 am
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hopefully a party that sticks up for the FBI and the DoJ isn't too much to ask for. at least for the very near future.

(which is a very strange position for a left-winger to take but here we are)


Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:33 pm
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