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 A Corrierino Awareness Thread 
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So, controlling the borders of your nation = fascism? So, is everything fascism now?

We should note that he was responding, at least in part, to this article which argues for radically open borders

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/16/opin ... ation.html

This article closes by noting that (at the time of the writing) a new caravan was forming in Honduras and that we should simply "let them in."

OK, let's imagine what that would look like. Anyone who wants to come America can,

Manjoo wrote:
if you passed a minimal background check, you’d be free to live, work, pay taxes and die in the United States.


How would one conduct a background check on a random person from Honduras? I mean, you could look, but you're not very likely to find anything. What if they have no documents? What if they use a made up name? What if our system fails to find anything in coordination with a non-cooperative foreign nation? So, in they go. And this means that billions of people would have an equal right to come into the nation. And out of the billions who could legally come, how many millions would come?

The word would get out very quickly. America, sliding as all empires do into oblivion, is still in a much better position that many people around the world. And now everyone would know that all it takes to live here is to get here. And there would be many nations happy to off-load their tired, hungry, and poor to us because they themselves cannot provide basic services for them. India recently called for 90,000 railway workers and got 25,000,000 applicants. Foreign states would probably be inclined to subsidize boatload after boatload the people to immigrate. We, of course, have robust services and could care for innumerable masses of people who would now enter our nation, right? It wouldn't matter that the people streaming in were from different cultures, speaking different languages, and without job skills translating to our service economy. We can all "learn to code" I suppose?

If we want a shining example of what this would look like, we need look no further than the shining example of California which is in no way strained under the sheer mass of humanity living there. The economy is robust and policies are fair. You can find housing in Silicon Valley and San Francisco at reasonable prices (for millionaires).


Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:14 pm
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
So, controlling the borders of your nation = fascism? So, is everything fascism now?

We should note that he was responding, at least in part, to this article which argues for radically open borders

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/16/opin ... ation.html

At issue are Trump's ideology and policies, not border security as such. The NYT article doesn't represent the Democratic consensus. Frankly, it's closer in spirt to a hardline libertarian stance on immigration. The Democratic party has consistently pushed legislation for comprehensive immigration reform that includes substantially increased border security. It happened under W in 2006 and under Obama in 2013. It died in the House both times because Republican leadership refused to put it up for a vote, knowing that it would pass with Republican votes but without a Republican majority. Tacking right in an attempt woo conservatives, Clinton extended the wall in the nineties (which just increased our illegal population by settling seasonal workers here) and Obama deported more immigrants than probably any other president in American history. For all the handwringing over the wall, Democrats already offered it up to Trump several times with the requirement that he extend protection for Dreamers like he said he wanted to and like most of the country wants. Instead, he tacked further right and called for further reductions in legal immigration, something he didn't even run on:

https://bearingdrift.com/2018/12/13/as-a-shutdown-looms-a-reminder-that-trump-already-turned-down-a-border-wall-deal-twice/?fbclid=IwAR3rSnSi2TjG2-AesMnpXTKqXpTNHhewq8XMMI0mIT3SbTWG3esJTdBPoyg

What we've seen, in other words, is a Democratic party routinely tacking right to get legislation passed and Republicans tacking even further and further right in an endless game of shifting goalposts to no discernible end beyond whipping up fear, anger, and votes. Trump is the logical endgame of this process, bottoming out in the most racist, reactionary and purely symbolic positions of the party. For Democrats to tack even further right at this point plays into the worst incentives of our political discourse.

Frum is smarter than this.


Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:32 am
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Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
hey I was just thinking, don't Muslims get the duel loyalty thing thrown at them, like, a lot? though not allegiance towards any one country but Islam itself.

I have to admire the, *ahem*, chutzpah of FOX News trying to double down on their charge against Omar that she believes Jews are not sufficiently loyal to America by.....charging that Muslim women cannot be sufficiently loyal to America. Because, hobgoblins? I dunno.


Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:42 pm
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Ergill wrote:
People have rightly pushed back at the double-standard leveled against her, and I'd say this veers much more into the "antisemitism as cudgel" than genuine antisemitism folder.

This is obviously the reasonable read, but I'm afraid that the mainstream news is too eager to give "balance" to this cudgel, illustrated by Chuck Todd giving Liz Cheney a platform to make these charges against Omar which went largely uncontested.

Ergill wrote:
This is a far throw from Tamika Mallory allegedly claiming that the Jews fueled the slave trade.

It's so depressing that anyone still takes Farrakhan this seriously. The Secret Relationship has become the Protocols for the black community.

Ergill wrote:
she rejects attempts to render the movement illegal. I can't knock her.

It's clearly a 1st Amendment issue to force anyone to either buy or not buy certain products. Boycotts work because they are voluntary. On the opposite side of the coin, I also oppose certain international efforts to punish those companies, groups and individuals who refuse to join the BDS movement.


Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:56 pm
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I sure don't want to distract from today's college admissions scandal, which has caught the imagination because it involves a couple of vaguely celebrities.

Because we also saw Wells Fargo testifying before Congress today, I want to remind of a story which was quickly ignored, the Wells Fargo scandal where they defrauded thousands of college students by charging them exponentially higher fees for their debit services. The scandal is multi-pronged. You have WF fraud, you also have the schools and universities taking kick-backs from WF for pushing Wells Fargo accounts onto freshmen students, and you also have the Trump administration's Education Department deliberately burying the report for two years.

In other words, it should be a much larger story.


Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:10 pm
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Ruling for today re: Manafort.

73 total months (could've been up to 120 months).

30 of them to be served concurrent with prior 47-month ruling under Judge Ellis, so 47 + 43 = 90 months.

9 of them considered "time served" due to pre-sentence imprisonment.

Which means 81 total months of imprisonment, ~7 years.

Not what I was hoping for, but that mostly falls on Judge Ellis and not Judge Jackson, whose ruling today seems fair.

The additional indictments against Manafort from the state of New York is nice to see.

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Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:56 am
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I do not know why Beto is running for president and not the Senate. I don't think he's gonna make it.


Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:15 am
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also judging from the news coming out of New Zealand, we are still living in a post-Gamergate world.

my apologies to anyone reading this who is gamer. I know you're not all like that.


Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 pm
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That guy is a white nationalist. His entire ethos was, "Kill immigrants - but only brown immigrants, not the ones that have only had an official territory since 1840." This has nothing to do with Gamergate and everything to do with ethno-national separatism.

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Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:50 pm
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Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
also judging from the news coming out of New Zealand, we are still living in a post-Gamergate world.

my apologies to anyone reading this who is gamer. I know you're not all like that.


Note this guy's manifesto. He wants division and polarization. He's hoping for a civil war in the U.S.

There was a crazy liberal who shot up a baseball field of Republicans, but we don't blame Bernie.


Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:52 pm
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LEAVES wrote:
That guy is a white nationalist. His entire ethos was, "Kill immigrants - but only brown immigrants, not the ones that have only had an official territory since 1840." This has nothing to do with Gamergate and everything to do with ethno-national separatism.


I wasn't being entirely serious, it was a reference to the shooter name-checking a vlogger ("subscribe to PewDiePie") who has a habit of spreading right-wing talking points.

sorry about that, I know there is much much much much more to this incident than "gamer culture".


Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:11 am
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Oxnard Montalvo wrote:

I wasn't being entirely serious, it was a reference to the shooter name-checking a vlogger ("subscribe to PewDiePie") who has a habit of spreading right-wing talking points.

sorry about that, I know there is much much much much more to this incident than "gamer culture".
I was reading The Guardian to find info on the shooting and there was a post that basically said, "The terrorist did something called "shitposting" where he included a lot of miscellaneous nonsense in order to generate more publicity. Journalists should be careful using anything the terrorist posted." It's basically the real-world equivalent of Mugatu training Zoolander by saying, "DON'T BE DISTRACTED BY ALL OF THE BEAUTIFUL CELEBRITIES!" Hilarious, in a sad way. This guy has to be the worst terrorist in history. Is a society defined by how pathetic their terrorists are? Or perhaps it's a complement that only the worst of the worst would be against your society, because everyone with any sense realizes that you're at least in the neighborhood of something good?

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Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:32 am
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LEAVES wrote:
This has nothing to do with Gamergate and everything to do with ethno-national separatism.

I'm not sure there's much daylight between these things. Wasn't Gamergate, at root, railing against the kind of Cultural Marxism that was forcing diversity down the throats of gamers (ie, straight white men)?

I think that the Gamergate connection has more to do with the associations with 4chan that may have been involved in his radicalization. I haven't read his manifesto, but it appears to be all over the place. The toxic stew of the kind of malicious memes, conspiracism and entitlement definitely seem relevant to the same kind of atmosphere surrounding a lot of alt-right/MSM sensibilities. I guess Gamergate is not exactly accurate, but it does capture the infantilism of their narcissism ("little boys with joysticks"). The problem with that is that it underestimates the real-world lethality of this radicalization.

I hate to be the Nazi here, but I'm about two memes away from supporting a law that would ban a whole lot of motherfuckers from the internet for good. A lot of these men deserve to sit in their boring-ass jobs, which is such a poor excuse for trolling. Unfortunately, I think that many of them would turn to torturing small animals instead.


Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:02 pm
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Jinnistan wrote:
I'm not sure there's much daylight between these things. Wasn't Gamergate, at root, railing against the kind of Cultural Marxism that was forcing diversity down the throats of gamers (ie, straight white men)?

If we're playing the association game, we can link a lot of stuff to a lot of stuff. We can Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon anything, really.

Fake reviews, representation in games, feminist criticism of video games, Doxxing, shadowbanning, Wikipedia edit wars? This is not quite the same thing as attempting to start an international race war by murdering dozens of people.

Jinnistan wrote:
I think that the Gamergate connection has more to do with the associations with 4chan that may have been involved in his radicalization.


The various Chans are a gateway to potentially anything and everything, but let's bracket Gamergate (which is connected to Reddit and Twitch and who knows how many other sites) and consider the Chan boards, which are basically an algae bloom of free speech and everything that comes with it. There is a much more direct connection to Islamophobia and racism here than anywhere else. How many times now have mass shooters made their announcement that they're about to go on a killing spree on a Chan board? Why? Well, in large part, because these are the largest free speech ports on the internet. As a result, however, for the lowest of the low it is basically the only port available, so they've colonized these sites.

Jinnistan wrote:
I haven't read his manifesto, but it appears to be all over the place. The toxic stew of the kind of malicious memes, conspiracism and entitlement definitely seem relevant to the same kind of atmosphere surrounding a lot of alt-right/MSM sensibilities.


The self-announced purpose of his manifesto is to sew dissent.

Joan Donovan, PhD wrote:
Journalists must not annotate the NZ murder’s manifesto. The coded language is not worth your time. Moreover, his social media celebrity call outs don’t mean you need to ask those influencers to speak on this. Those references were strategically placed to create coverage.


Jinnistan wrote:
I guess Gamergate is not exactly accurate,
And I think that this is why we need to be careful with casual characterizations.

Jinnistan wrote:
but it does capture the infantilism of their narcissism ("little boys with joysticks").
We have a generation of lost boys out there who have retreated to video games, in part, because we don't have a use for them. We have toxic masculinity because we don't have a valorized masculinity to embrace. If your options are to be a silent "ally" because you're guilty for the sins of your father or to withdraw and play video games, you might just withdraw into video games. Why do you think Jordan Peterson is selling so many books? People want a positive vision of themselves and they want to make meaning in the world.

Jinnistan wrote:
The problem with that is that it underestimates the real-world lethality of this radicalization.


We pay attention to what is widely mediated. The media drives the narrative and we follow the narrative and crazy people will hop onto the narrative. We pay a lot more attention to white girls who get abducted than we do to black girls who get abducted. We pay more attention to acts of religious terrorism Muslims in white countries like New Zealand than acts of terrorism against Christians in countries we don't care about (i.e., non-white).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... iddle-east

It's hard to keep this stuff in perspective, but I agree that the tides are rising. We're polarizing and losing resources for cooperation.

Jinnistan wrote:
I hate to be the Nazi here, but I'm about two memes away from supporting a law that would ban a whole lot of motherfuckers from the internet for good. A lot of these men deserve to sit in their boring-ass jobs, which is such a poor excuse for trolling. Unfortunately, I think that many of them would turn to torturing small animals instead.


If free speech were always agreeable, we would not have to argue for it and protect it with laws.


Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:37 pm
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
If we're playing the association game, we can link a lot of stuff to a lot of stuff. We can Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon anything, really.

It's far more relevant than that. The narrative that Cultural Marxism is shoving diversity down an unwilling nation's throat is at the heart of the anti-immigrant narrative, the "other people's babies" narrative, etc. And, since you mention it, it doesn't seem to be a coincidence that Cultural Marxism is one of Jordan Peterson's primary bugaboos.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
How many times now have mass shooters made their announcement that they're about to go on a killing spree on a Chan board? Why? Well, in large part, because these are the largest free speech ports on the internet.

It could also be that, given the manifest absurdity of the premise of the site which refuses to distinguish between sincere expression and ironic pwning, that such an announcement affords such a distance and deniability that comes with the luxury of not being taken seriously. And, funny enough, this continues after a number of plausible announcements on the site.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
The self-announced purpose of his manifesto is to sew dissent.

Yes, precisely like 4chan and its brethren. The chaos principle. Hence the association.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
We have toxic masculinity because we don't have a valorized masculinity to embrace.

What's wrong with The Rock? (Other than his non-whiteness?)

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
The media drives the narrative and we follow the narrative and crazy people will hop onto the narrative.

The narrative advanced by 4chan does not receive "the media" attention, so it doesn't follow here. In fact, such incidents like this, or Elliott Rodgers, etc, surprise the media because it tends to be unaware of such narratives until they burst into violent attention.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
We pay more attention to acts of religious terrorism Muslims in white countries like New Zealand than acts of terrorism against Christians in countries we don't care about (i.e., non-white).

Please take advantage of this to double down on a number of stereotypes.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
If free speech were always agreeable, we would not have to argue for it and protect it with laws.

I guess it's necesssary to point out that the comment you quoted was facetious, but, sure, I agree with the obvious. It's a frustration drawn from the number of meaningless speakers insisting on being heard.


Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:46 pm
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
We have a generation of lost boys out there who have retreated to video games, in part, because we don't have a use for them. We have toxic masculinity because we don't have a valorized masculinity to embrace.
When men treated women as property, that was toxic masculinity. This is not a new thing.

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Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:13 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
I'm not sure there's much daylight between these things. Wasn't Gamergate, at root, railing against the kind of Cultural Marxism that was forcing diversity down the throats of gamers (ie, straight white men)?

I think that the Gamergate connection has more to do with the associations with 4chan that may have been involved in his radicalization. I haven't read his manifesto, but it appears to be all over the place. The toxic stew of the kind of malicious memes, conspiracism and entitlement definitely seem relevant to the same kind of atmosphere surrounding a lot of alt-right/MSM sensibilities. I guess Gamergate is not exactly accurate, but it does capture the infantilism of their narcissism ("little boys with joysticks"). The problem with that is that it underestimates the real-world lethality of this radicalization.

I hate to be the Nazi here, but I'm about two memes away from supporting a law that would ban a whole lot of motherfuckers from the internet for good. A lot of these men deserve to sit in their boring-ass jobs, which is such a poor excuse for trolling. Unfortunately, I think that many of them would turn to torturing small animals instead.
Let's compare Gamergate to the guy that murdered 50 people at two mosques:

There's really no comparison.

Let's compare the guy that murdered 50 people at two mosques to the guys that mudered a lot of brown people at churches and mosques in recent history:

Oh, it's the exact same.

Just because you have an ethno-nationalist who is also interested in 4chan doesn't mean that 4chan is a more insidious force than ethno-nationalism. You can tell this, in fact, because instead of harassing women online he murdered brown people.

One of those social forces is simply immensely more conducive to real world mass murder than the other, and it has been that way for millennia. It is possible that ethno-nationalism on the internet is a huge problem, but that to me seems distinct from Gamergate. It's also the case that mass murders spawned from ethno-nationalist sentiments long predated the internet, so the power of the internet in that arena needs to be proven, though it certainly could be a driving force. It could also merely be a substitution - people spend less time recruiting ethno-nationalists in real life and do it on the internet, so the problem is the same and the number of "converts" is the same they just changed venue. One thing is certain: Ethno-nationalism is far, far more dangerous than whatever Gamergate was.

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Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:17 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
It could also be that, given the manifest absurdity of the premise of the site which refuses to distinguish between sincere expression and ironic pwning, that such an announcement affords such a distance and deniability that comes with the luxury of not being taken seriously. And, funny enough, this continues after a number of plausible announcements on the site.


Interesting thought.

I wonder how much of it is mischief that takes wings. Like the resurgence of flat Earth shit. Who in their right mind would believe that? But... ...if you're impressionable and you stumble into YouTube videos with "proofs" and questions and when you have pranksters who pretend to believe, how many people wind up the unwitting butt of the joke while in the process making the joke real. Kind of like Slender Man becoming "real" in a certain sense when two little girls stab another girl to appease him or David Foster Wallace's warning about the exhaustion of irony.

There are a lot of people who are concerned that social media and the internet is threatening our democracy, but strongly suspect that what we're witnessing are the destabilizing effects of the democratizing of the public sphere. It's not that we're losing democracy, but we're terrified at the unintended democratizing effects (anyone can say anything and really have a platform and no matter how crazy you are there is an echo chamber for you get affirmation in) of the information age.


Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:22 am
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IDK where to post this. But the poster who went by "Joss Whedon" has died. Some of you knew him as Adam in real life. He actually passed a few weeks ago. I only found out cuz today would be his birthday.


Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:37 am
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LEAVES wrote:
Just because you have an ethno-nationalist who is also interested in 4chan doesn't mean that 4chan is a more insidious force than ethno-nationalism.

I think that you're confusing the medium with the message. The latter being ethno-nationalism, an insidious force indeed, but that's a message which has long been associated with the alt-right internet culture, the meme-generating medium which festers these messages. It's worth considering the engine itself, the culture which has given rise to this. Gamergate was always about more than video games, it was a bellweather of the kind of authoritarian backlash against social progress for which ethno-nationalism is a logical extension. The fact that it also encompases anti-feminism and homophobia as its primary mission doesn't dispel the fact that it is, fundamentally, an anti-tolerance movement, which pushed the narrative of a Marxist conspiracy to rewrite white men into subservient roles. This is not appreciably distinct from the narrative of white genocide, of being replaced. These are all tentacles of the same invertebrate beast.


Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:46 am
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Like the resurgence of flat Earth shit. Who in their right mind would believe that?

I was under the impression that the flat earth thing, in its recent incarnation, was another prank forged by 4chan which became its own creature as more and more people started taking it seriously. It requires such a revolutionary dismissal of elementary knowledge that it's become like an uber-conspiracy. It's not surprising that flat-earthers tend to also subscribe to most other trendy conspiracies as well, as if the only things they're willing to believe are the most defiantly ludicrous. I've also noticed that a number of fundamentalist Christians have joined the flat-earther crowd, as it fits their cosmology better than natural science.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
There are a lot of people who are concerned that social media and the internet is threatening our democracy, but strongly suspect that what we're witnessing are the destabilizing effects of the democratizing of the public sphere. It's not that we're losing democracy, but we're terrified at the unintended democratizing effects (anyone can say anything and really have a platform and no matter how crazy you are there is an echo chamber for you get affirmation in) of the information age.

The problem is not one of democracy though. Democracy would presume a sincerity of voices, each person weighing in on their beliefs. The problem is anonymity, which is not democracy, unless we include the democratic definition to include fake voices. The problem is disinformation, as distinguished from misinformation for being deliberate and weaponized. The problem is a largely uneducated, or at least unmotivated, populace which doesn't exercise the basic media literacy required to defend oneself from propaganda. One of the funniest things about reading Snopes is in how many fake news stories originate from sites which explicitly designate themselves as satire. Nobody gives a fuck. I'm sure many of them don't bother to read past the headlines on their Facebook feed.

I'll go as far as to agree that we're witnessing the destabilizing effects of people coming to terms with the inherent responsibilities that democracy demands, but I wouldn't call that a symptom of too much democracy.


Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:01 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
I think that you're confusing the medium with the message. The latter being ethno-nationalism, an insidious force indeed, but that's a message which has long been associated with the alt-right internet culture, the meme-generating medium which festers these messages. It's worth considering the engine itself, the culture which has given rise to this. Gamergate was always about more than video games, it was a bellweather of the kind of authoritarian backlash against social progress for which ethno-nationalism is a logical extension. The fact that it also encompases anti-feminism and homophobia as its primary mission doesn't dispel the fact that it is, fundamentally, an anti-tolerance movement, which pushed the narrative of a Marxist conspiracy to rewrite white men into subservient roles. This is not appreciably distinct from the narrative of white genocide, of being replaced. These are all tentacles of the same invertebrate beast.
I'm not saying that they're not "capable of co-habitation", but they're certainly not co-equal or even co-habiting. How many people were even involved in Gamergate? Not that many. How many people are white nationalists? This article claims 11 million in the US. Wikipedia says that 10 thousand people wrote in support of Gamergate via anonymoous accounts on Twitter - and likely far, far, far fewer even online harassed someone.

If we were to write about the issue of "radicalization including ethno-natioalism and organized misogynistic groups" Gamergate or the specific subforum on 4chan where Gamergate was spawned would not even get a paragraph, just a mention in a list. It might be interesting to figure out how many "pockets of deplorables" there are in various likely entirely unrelated locations on the internet, but it would never under any condition be sensible to mention Gamergate in the same paragraph as etho-nationalism. I agree that there's cross-polination, but I don't agree that there's a lot of interaction between these "pockets of deplorables". Most people stick to their little echo chamber, and on 4chan it's mostly out of boredom and borne of a youthful desire to antagonize, not to murder. Of the people that murder, it's usually school shooters and the like - lashing out blindly, not in a way tied to any worldview.

If people are so open to new ideas by interacting with a lot of different sources, then they probably wouldn't be ethno-nationalists. These kinds of idiocy require very tight echo chambers, so I don't think there's much chance of these communities being tightly related.

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Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:13 am
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LEAVES wrote:
I'm not saying that they're not "capable of co-habitation", but they're certainly not co-equal or even co-habiting. How many people were even involved in Gamergate? Not that many. How many people are white nationalists? This article claims 11 million in the US. Wikipedia says that 10 thousand people wrote in support of Gamergate via anonymoous accounts on Twitter - and likely far, far, far fewer even online harassed someone.

The fact that you seem to think that I'm making an equivalence between the two shows that you're missing my point. I'm specifically saying not to confuse the two things. One is the steak: ethnonationalism; the other is the sizzle: Gamergate represents the medium of how to push the messaging.

Gamergate is a manifestation of alt-right white male greivance, one that due to its easily mockable subject (little boys with joysticks) and precedence (predating Trump) makes it seem less significant than perhaps we should see it in hindsight. In many ways, it was the maiden voyage of alt-right messaging. However, it still, at its root, involved a conspiracy to replace straight white males and attracted and provided a platform for those invested in that message.

I could maybe make an ungenerous comparison between the influence of Breitbart and Mein Kampf, in terms of sheer sales figures, and Breitbart is careful not to be too explicitly ethno-nationalist (pinky swear) but Breitbart is still a formidable hub for those with ethnonationalist tendencies. Like Gamergate, Breitbart uses irony as plausible deniability (the lulz!) and considers accusations that they harbor ethnonationalists as a slur stained with liberal tears. Milo can cite "1488" and claim it's a joke. This is the MO of 4chan, and Gamergate was an early manifestation of this kind of duplicitous platforming.


Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:37 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
The fact that you seem to think that I'm making an equivalence between the two shows that you're missing my point. I'm specifically saying not to confuse the two things. One is the steak: ethnonationalism; the other is the sizzle: Gamergate represents the medium of how to push the messaging.

Gamergate is a manifestation of alt-right white male greivance, one that due to its easily mockable subject (little boys with joysticks) and precedence (predating Trump) makes it seem less significant than perhaps we should see it in hindsight. In many ways, it was the maiden voyage of alt-right messaging. However, it still, at its root, involved a conspiracy to replace straight white males and attracted and provided a platform for those invested in that message.

I could maybe make an ungenerous comparison between the influence of Breitbart and Mein Kampf, in terms of sheer sales figures, and Breitbart is careful not to be too explicitly ethno-nationalist (pinky swear) but Breitbart is still a formidable hub for those with ethnonationalist tendencies. Like Gamergate, Breitbart uses irony as plausible deniability (the lulz!) and considers accusations that they harbor ethnonationalists as a slur stained with liberal tears. Milo can cite "1488" and claim it's a joke. This is the MO of 4chan, and Gamergate was an early manifestation of this kind of duplicitous platforming.
...but ethno-nationalists have already figured out the medium. That's why they're at 11 million and have half of FOX News.

I don't think Gamergate is the sizzle that ethno-nationalists are looking for. I think they're happy with Tucker Carlson.

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Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:50 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
The problem is not one of democracy though. Democracy would presume a sincerity of voices, each person weighing in on their beliefs.


I think you overestimate what a pure democracy actually looks like (there is a reason why this form of government is so unstable) and that you are possibly confusing democratic values (the idealized sense of democracy that only gives an valorific definition of the term) and mechanical democracy (which is the open space in which anything may happen - a people may "democratically" vote for theocracy or monarchy or any number of things which violate democratic values).

Jinnistan wrote:
The problem is anonymity, which is not democracy, unless we include the democratic definition to include fake voices.


Curious that you say this, given your recent feeling of being threatened by being called by your own name.

Anonymity is how journalists protect sources. Anonymity is how we we can experiment with ideas without risking the wrath of the mob (e.g., why Madison wrote under the name "Publius"). Anonymity of the ballot box is why people may discretely vote for the their true candidate of choice. Anonymity matters and is a vital aspect of a healthy society.

Jinnistan wrote:
The problem is disinformation, as distinguished from misinformation for being deliberate and weaponized.


There's no way to have democracy and free speech without both being potentially gamed and weaponized. You fight bad speech with better speech.

Jinnistan wrote:
The problem is a largely uneducated, or at least unmotivated, populace which doesn't exercise the basic media literacy required to defend oneself from propaganda.


And that is a cultural problem. We lack values and virtues necessary to sustain a healthy society. This is why mere "mechanical democracies" (societies that mere have the mechanism of democracy without pulsing democratic values, the mere mechanical provision of free speech without the valuing of free speech beyond the mere provision) are dooomed.

Jinnistan wrote:
I'll go as far as to agree that we're witnessing the destabilizing effects of people coming to terms with the inherent responsibilities that democracy demands, but I wouldn't call that a symptom of too much democracy.


I think Plato would disagree. And although we should probably dismiss his call for a philosopher king (which in our scientific age is expressed as pining for technocracy), we should remember that he saw all the ways in which democracy can go wrong (e.g., the Tyranny of the Thirty).


Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:08 am
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
I think Plato would disagree. And although we should probably dismiss his call for a philosopher king (which in our scientific age is expressed as pining for technocracy), we should remember that he saw all the ways in which democracy can go wrong (e.g., the Tyranny of the Thirty).

Ah yes, The Thirty Tyrants, an oligarchic, antidemocratic regime forced on Athens by Sparta after years of war. Classic example of democracy gone wrong.


Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:47 am
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Melvin Butterworth wrote:
I think you overestimate what a pure democracy actually looks like (there is a reason why this form of government is so unstable) and that you are possibly confusing democratic values (the idealized sense of democracy that only gives an valorific definition of the term) and mechanical democracy (which is the open space in which anything may happen - a people may "democratically" vote for theocracy or monarchy or any number of things which violate democratic values).

The only "valorific" is the assumption that people will voice sincere beliefs. Individuals may have sincerely anti-democratic inclinations for theocracy or monarchy. This wasn't the issue I was singling out.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Anonymity is how journalists protect sources. Anonymity is how we we can experiment with ideas without risking the wrath of the mob (e.g., why Madison wrote under the name "Publius"). Anonymity of the ballot box is why people may discretely vote for the their true candidate of choice. Anonymity matters and is a vital aspect of a healthy society.

Again, not the issue I was speaking to. This is the problem with breaking my paragraph into bite-size chunks out of context. We'll get to the real issue of using anonymity not to "discretely vote for their true candidate", but to poison the well of discourse.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
And that is a cultural problem. We lack values and virtues necessary to sustain a healthy society.

Thank you. We've finally arrived at the point I was making, which is the neglect of the inherent responsibilities of democracy, most formidably being the necessity of an informed and educated citizenry. This is both an institutional issue (the civic costs of NCLB) but also a personal one, as much of the intellectual neglect surrounding "fake news" and parsing propagandistic sophism lies in a certain willing abdication of thought among an otherwise educated populace. "You can't make me care" is not only the most insanely futile social media retort that I've ever read, but it may also be the most fitting harbinger for the most significant flaw in democracy - it only works if people care.

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
I think Plato would disagree.

I imagine Plato would have preferred a much wiser world. People need to wise up. We need to be smarter than our memes.


Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:21 pm
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LEAVES wrote:
I don't think Gamergate is the sizzle that ethno-nationalists are looking for. I think they're happy with Tucker Carlson.

I called Gamergate a "bellweather" of this movement, and I think that's true. Breitbart and Tucker Carlson are also bellweathers. It's the evolution for this distinctly digital platform for ethnonationalist memes.


Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:26 pm
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nice to know at least one of the candidates is out there sweating the details

https://medium.com/@teamwarren/my-housing-plan-for-america-20038e19dc26


Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:54 pm
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Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
nice to know at least one of the candidates is out there sweating the details

https://medium.com/@teamwarren/my-housing-plan-for-america-20038e19dc26
Estate taxes are the worst way to do this. This will just mean that rich people will find more tax loopholes, not pay more taxes.

Why not fix the hilariously absurd capital gains rates that are much more difficult to find loopholes to and generate hundreds of billions in surplus AND make the tax code make more sense?

The Republicans gave a bunch of money to rich people - and didn't pay for it. I don't see why Democrats have to find "ways to pay" for things that should just be paid for by just undoing all of the awful damage that the Republicans did.

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Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:29 am
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https://medium.com/s/futurehuman/surviv ... f6cddd0cc1


Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:18 am
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