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As long as you're taking in a steady amount of protein and carbs a day you shouldn't be losing muscle mass while you're cutting. You could theoretically keep a 1,000 calorie diet per day of high-quality proteins and carbs while cutting and not lose any lean mass. Or so says my mom.

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Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:13 am
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trying to cut down on my rest times. it's kicking my ass.


Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:04 am
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Trip wrote:
The thing is, aside from my 3-4 workouts a week, I'm sedentary in the worst way.


So am I. Never stops me from losing weight. :P

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Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:41 pm
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Izzy Black wrote:
As long as you're taking in a steady amount of protein and carbs a day you shouldn't be losing muscle mass while you're cutting. You could theoretically keep a 1,000 calorie diet per day of high-quality proteins and carbs while cutting and not lose any lean mass. Or so says my mom.


Everything I've read suggests it's a lot stricter than that once you've surpassed the initial phase of "noob gains" as they're often referred to in the fitness community. There's debate about the amount of each of the macronutrients that is optimal for retaining LBM, but the consensus seems to be that a deficit should be no more than roughly 10% of your maintenance so as to avoid muscle loss. Then there's debate about the role of cardio in this process. Most will say to either avoid it completely or keep it minimal and never near weight training. Part of the reason I want to go to school to study this and not just run through a 4 week course to get certified is so I can actually know this stuff and understand the data these people are working with when they come to these conclusions. All I have is anecdotal data about myself and the opinion of experts and "bro"-type commentators. I think, given my relatively high protein intake and the fact that I'm still training at the same intensity as I do when bulking, that I'm not losing any appreciable amount of LBM. If anything, I'm pretty much stagnant, which I guess is better than regressing.

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Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:48 pm
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B-Side wrote:

So am I. Never stops me from losing weight. :P

Well, I don't have a lot of weight to begin with BURN

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Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:50 pm
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Trip wrote:
Well, I don't have a lot of weight to begin with BURN


:x

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Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:50 pm
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Verite wrote:
Are you around 172 pounds?

Trip wrote:
Yes.

I see. The reason I asked is because 1700 calories for a 172-lb person exercising about 3-7 hours per week is a 29% to 38% deficit below maintenance which is considered a large deficit. Deficits beyond 25% have the highest potential for problems with stalling....if only because large deficits is seen as a significant stressor by the body which will keep cortisol (stress hormone) elevated which will cause water retention. For people who don't carry much fat mass, large deficits also have a significant impact on metabolic slowdown: active thyroid, adrenaline, noradrenaline, and leptin go down quicker.

The other factor to consider is the kind of exercise you're doing. If high intensity cardio is in addition to or in place of your weight training, then that's adding another extreme stressor to the caloric deficit stressor. If you prefer to train intensely, you'll do better with increasing calories to a 10% to 25% deficit. There's even a possibility that significant recomposition (i.e. "simultaneous" fat loss and lean mass gain) may occur with "maintenance" calories. That can be the case for people within the first few weeks to months of consistent training.

On the other hand, if you want to keep a deficit larger than 25%, you can make good/great progress with it if you do something like this:

weight training (to prevent muscle loss, hopefully a little lean mass gain) --
1) about 1.5 to 3.5 hours per week
2) on a scale of 1-10, keep intensity to an 8 (i.e. terminating sets with 2-4 reps left in the tank) with perhaps the last set for each body part rating a 9 (i.e. 1 rep left in the tank)

low-intensity cardio --
1) 30 to 60 minutes; 1-4 times per week (or drop it entirely)
2) keep intensity down to 3-4 on a scale of 1-10

So when you do a large caloric deficit, majority of the fat loss is attained by the caloric reduction. When you do a small caloric deficit, majority of fat loss is stimulated by caloric expenditure (training). A moderate caloric deficit is a situation in which the fat loss is "split" between caloric reduction and caloric expenditure (training).

To detect changes, a cheap skin caliper is really good. Like weight scale readings, there will be fluctuations, though. With calipers, if your skin folds go down, you lost some subcutaneous fat. If skin folds go down but your weight stays the same, you likely lost some fat and gained some lean mass.


Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:04 am
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Izzy Black wrote:
As long as you're taking in a steady amount of protein and carbs a day you shouldn't be losing muscle mass while you're cutting. You could theoretically keep a 1,000 calorie diet per day of high-quality proteins and carbs while cutting and not lose any lean mass. Or so says my mom.

B-Side wrote:
Everything I've read suggests it's a lot stricter than that once you've surpassed the initial phase of "noob gains" as they're often referred to in the fitness community. There's debate about the amount of each of the macronutrients that is optimal for retaining LBM, but the consensus seems to be that a deficit should be no more than roughly 10% of your maintenance so as to avoid muscle loss. Then there's debate about the role of cardio in this process. Most will say to either avoid it completely or keep it minimal and never near weight training.

Caloric deficits can be really severe for all level of trainees: newbies to advanced. The key to success with such a regimen will be a high protein intake (higher than usual: 1.5 grams to 2 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass) and sound application of training (maintenance load and maintenance volume resistance training + no/minimal low intensity cardio). An example of this are variations of protein sparing modified fasts (PSMF). For lighter individuals, they'll consume less than 1,000 calories per day and successfully lose fat while maintaining lean mass (or losing an insignificant amount at worst).


Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:12 am
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Verite wrote:

I see. The reason I asked is because 1700 calories for a 172-lb person exercising about 3-7 hours per week is a 29% to 38% deficit below maintenance which is considered a large deficit. Deficits beyond 25% have the highest potential for problems with stalling....if only because large deficits is seen as a significant stressor by the body which will keep cortisol (stress hormone) elevated which will cause water retention. For people who don't carry much fat mass, large deficits also have a significant impact on metabolic slowdown: active thyroid, adrenaline, noradrenaline, and leptin go down quicker.

The other factor to consider is the kind of exercise you're doing. If high intensity cardio is in addition to or in place of your weight training, then that's adding another extreme stressor to the caloric deficit stressor. If you prefer to train intensely, you'll do better with increasing calories to a 10% to 25% deficit. There's even a possibility that significant recomposition (i.e. "simultaneous" fat loss and lean mass gain) may occur with "maintenance" calories. That's can be the case for people within the first few weeks to months of consistent training.

On the other hand, if you want to keep a deficit larger than 25%, you can make good/great progress with it if you do something like this:

weight training (to prevent muscle loss, hopefully a little lean mass gain) --
1) about 1.5 to 3.5 hours per week
2) on a scale of 1-10, keep intensity to an 8 (i.e. terminating sets with 2-4 reps left in the tank) with perhaps the last set for each body part rating a 9 (i.e. 1 rep left in the tank)

low-intensity cardio --
1) 30 to 60 minutes; 1-4 times per week (or drop it entirely)
2) keep intensity down to 3-4 on a scale of 1-10

So when you do a large caloric deficit, majority of the fat loss is attained by the caloric reduction. When you do a small caloric deficit, majority of fat loss is stimulated by caloric expenditure (training). A moderate caloric deficit is a situation in which the fat loss is "split" between caloric reduction and caloric expenditure (training).

To detect changes, a cheap skin caliper is really good. Like weight scale readings, there will be fluctuations, though. With calipers, if your skin folds go down, you lost some subcutaneous fat. If skin folds go down but your weight stays the same, you likely lost some fat and gained some lean mass.

Wow :up:

I can assure you I am not exercising nearly that much, however. I am currently doing no more than 2 hours. In fact, more or less what you've outlined lower down.
It's possible I've lost a bit of fat so steadily I can't even really tell. Buying a caliper could help.

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Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:38 am
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Trip wrote:
I can assure you I am not exercising nearly that much, however. I am currently doing no more than 2 hours. In fact, more or less what you've outlined lower down.

I see. ~30-40 minute workouts, 3-4 times per week. 1700 calories with that workload can/should work.

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It's possible I've lost a bit of fat so steadily I can't even really tell.

That could be the case here.


Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:51 am
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Trip wrote:
Well, I don't have a lot of weight to begin with BURN


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Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:54 am
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Verite wrote:
Caloric deficits can be really severe for all level of trainees: newbies to advanced. The key to success with such a regimen will be a high protein intake (higher than usual: 1.5 grams to 2 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass) and sound application of training (maintenance load and maintenance volume resistance training + no/minimal low intensity cardio). An example of this are variations of protein sparing modified fasts (PSMF). For lighter individuals, they'll consume less than 1,000 calories per day and successfully lose fat while maintaining lean mass (or losing an insignificant amount at worst).


I've mixed in LISS with bouts of HIIT. HIIT can be pretty draining, especially after you've just finished lifting heavy. I typically save it for the days between lifting. I don't feel it compromises my recovery, which is something I've been warned about. I'm training at full capacity, but my protein intake is definitely not 1.5-2x my LBM, which is around 170-175 lbs if I use BIA-style devices as guidelines. That range would have me consuming over 250g of protein a day. I aim for 150-200, and probably rarely reach 200. Is this an instance in which it may actually be beneficial to use a BCAA supplement? I know they're essentially useless for the average trainee, but I've read that they may actually help preserve lean mass when one chooses to enter a deficit larger than is typically prescribed, especially with the addition of 5 bouts of cardio a week. They're never longer than 20 mins, but it's clearly more than is generally advised. 250g of protein would be 1/3 of my total caloric intake. I can try to squeeze in more protein, but as it is I down protein bars and 2 shakes per training day to hit the levels I currently do. I'm not very patient, so trying to come up with a dozen different ways to cook chicken and actually go through with prepping it and incorporating it into a larger, but also relatively low calorie dish is really trying. I don't like fish, so that's off the table. I like chicken, turkey sausage, eggs, beans, milk, cheese, grains, nuts, etc. for protein, but I'm also more of a pre-packaged meal guy. I find a Lean Cuisine or something that has one or more of these ingredients and I eat that. My sodium intake is probably ridiculous. I know a certain elevation in sodium is necessary when training and utilizing cardio, but I can imagine it possibly hindering my weight loss. I am going to try and gradually move away from pre-packaged meals as much as I can. I've begun cooking omelets with two eggs and a handful of servings of liquid egg whites and two slices of reduced fat cheese, which gets me a good amount of protein for so few calories, so that's a start. I've got pre-cooked grilled chicken strips I can incorporate into dishes. I'm not a 2-3 meals a day kind of guy, so I like to spread it out a bit. If you have any cool recipes you've stumbled upon or made up yourself that you think might appeal to me and get me as much protein as possible in something that's relatively low in calories, that'd be awesome. I've got ideas, but I'm always afraid I'm gonna waste food since my taste is pretty narrow. This needlessly long rant brought to you by an active and neurotic mind.

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Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:06 pm
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B-Side wrote:
I'm training at full capacity, but my protein intake is definitely not 1.5-2x my LBM, which is around 170-175 lbs if I use BIA-style devices as guidelines. That range would have me consuming over 250g of protein a day. I aim for 150-200, and probably rarely reach 200.

Too lazy to browse through past posts :D but isn't your caloric deficit on your current cut only 10%? If so, you don't need to do 1.5-2x. That's for severe caloric deficits especially if it's a PSMF.

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Is this an instance in which it may actually be beneficial to use a BCAA supplement? I know they're essentially useless for the average trainee, but I've read that they may actually help preserve lean mass when one chooses to enter a deficit larger than is typically prescribed, especially with the addition of 5 bouts of cardio a week.

Animal proteins have BCAAs already. Whey is about 20-25% BCAAs. Milk (~80% casein, ~20% whey) is about 21%. Chicken, beef, fish, etc. is about 18%. Considering the typical strength/power and/or bodybuilding trainee consumes high levels of protein already, BCAA supplementation is unnecessary. Moreover, whey is a better choice than BCAAs pre-workout and intra-workout. BCAAs have the potential to raise free ammonia levels which may impair exercise performance. Whey doesn't have that problem because the other amino acids that accompany the BCAAs can bind to the ammonia and prevent the potential performance decrement. Whey is cheaper, too. Icing on the cake: whey has stuff in it that are immunomodulatory (e.g. lactoferrin), BCAAs don't have them.


Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:25 am
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Verite wrote:
Too lazy to browse through past posts :D but isn't your caloric deficit on your current cut only 10%? If so, you don't need to do 1.5-2x. That's for severe caloric deficits especially if it's a PSMF.


My maintenance is around 3,400, and I aim for about 3,000, not including cardio, so my net caloric intake is likely somewhere closer to 2,700 on training days.

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Animal proteins have BCAAs already. Whey is about 20-25% BCAAs. Milk (~80% casein, ~20% whey) is about 21%. Chicken, beef, fish, etc. is about 18%. Considering the typical strength/power and/or bodybuilding trainee consumes high levels of protein already, BCAA supplementation is unnecessary. Moreover, whey is a better choice than BCAAs pre-workout and intra-workout. BCAAs have the potential to raise free ammonia levels which may impair exercise performance. Whey doesn't have that problem because the other amino acids that accompany the BCAAs can bind to the ammonia and prevent the potential performance decrement. Whey is cheaper, too. Icing on the cake: whey has stuff in it that are immunomodulatory (e.g. lactoferrin), BCAAs don't have them.


Right, right. I'm just looking for a buffer that doesn't include me having to micromanage my meals to the point of near-madness to insure I'm getting over a third of my calories from protein. I could drink more whey, but the money for that stuff adds up, even if you're buying the cheap shit from Wal-Mart.

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Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:16 pm
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B-Side wrote:
I'm just looking for a buffer that doesn't include me having to micromanage my meals to the point of near-madness to insure I'm getting over a third of my calories from protein.

Was in a rush when writing my last post and I forgot to mention that 1.5 to 2 x lbm is for lean to sort of lean trainees on severe caloric restriction. If you're more than ~15% BF, then you're likely to do fine with less like 1 to 1.5 x lbm.

You're between 216 and 220 pounds. If I were you, on training days, I would try to consume more than 173 grams of protein. Remember that the ISSN's current position is that 0.8 grams of protein per pound of total body weight is adequate to prevent muscle loss for active individuals consuming maintenance calories. Protein requirements do seem to be higher during a deficit than when in maintenance or a surplus.


Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:19 pm
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Verite wrote:
Was in a rush when writing my last post and I forgot to mention that 1.5 to 2 x lbm is for lean to sort of lean trainees on severe caloric restriction. If you're more than ~15% BF, then you're likely to do fine with less like 1 to 1.5 x lbm.

You're between 216 and 220 pounds. If I were you, on training days, I would try to consume more than 173 grams of protein. Remember that the ISSN's current position is that 0.8 grams of protein per pound of total body weight is adequate to prevent muscle loss for active individuals consuming maintenance calories. Protein requirements do seem to be higher during a deficit than when in maintenance or a surplus.


I do try and make my protein intake slightly higher, if at all possible, on training days at the very least. According to two different body fat measuring devices (that both seemed to utilize the same timed electrical current method), my body fat is somewhere around 18-19%. As we've discussed, calipers are not feasible due to my loose skin, so I can't say with any sense of certainty what my real body fat percentage is. I know there are no absolutely perfect methods of measuring, but something a little more accurate would be helpful. I basically just use myself as a gauge; how I feel, how I look in the mirror, the definition (or lack thereof) in my arms, my back, my chest, etc.

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Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:05 pm
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B-Side wrote:
so I can't say with any sense of certainty what my real body fat percentage is.

Yeah, I know your situation. That's why I brought up the ISSN reco which is based on total body weight.


Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:44 pm
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You haven't criticized my 4 day full body routine yet, Verite. Kinda feels like I need more quad work. Becoming too hamstring-dominant I think. Need to pack some size on my vastus medialis. It's all on my lateralus.

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Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:53 pm
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B-Side wrote:
You haven't criticized my 4 day full body routine yet, Verite. Kinda feels like I need more quad work. Becoming too hamstring-dominant I think. Need to pack some size on my vastus medialis. It's all on my lateralus.

That routine has you hitting each body part 4 times per week?


Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:25 am
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Verite should start charging. :D


Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:28 am
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Verite wrote:
That routine has you hitting each body part 4 times per week?


Indeed. With super low volume, of course. It's essentially an "every other day" routine. I suppose saying it hits every body part 4 times a week might be overstating it. My rear delts, calves, upper chest, forearms and middle delts only get direct work twice a week. My anterior delts get touched all 4 days, but all as part of other compound movements. It certainly feels odd to be limiting myself to 2 compound movements a day for my legs, and two days working calves a little. Jason Blaha says a full body can be done 4 times a week by an intermediate, but it's unclear how he would actually program such a thing. I really feel as if actual muscle mass may be a major limited factor for me right now when it comes to increasing strength, which is why I've programmed a largely hypertrophy program focused on frequency of training rather than volume. I could switch back to an upper/lower split, but I've become fond of the idea of a full body split simply because it seems to be the optimal path for growth in natural lifters. The common guideline is 3 days a week, of course, but I want 4 days training. Considering I'll be keeping the cardio on the low end and will have a full day of recovery between every training day, I don't think I'm being too outrageous here. That said, I'm not opposed to suggestions on how I might condense both routines a bit. They both stand at 10 exercises apiece. A total of 16 sets a week for my chest. 28 a week for my back if I include RDLs and standard deadlifts as back exercises as opposed to chiefly leg exercises. 8 a week for all the remaining muscle groups, not including the compound movements in which they would receive some indirect work. 24 for my legs. Those numbers do look a bit high, but I can only assume the extra volume is mostly permissible due to how it's spread out. I can see alternating more compound, nervous-system-dominant strength work with less compound, more hypertrophy-oriented work. The major muscle groups would end up being hit just as often, but the smaller muscle groups would only get isolated twice a week. Considering the isolation work is the least taxing, I'm not sure how helpful this would be.

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Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:16 pm
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B-Side wrote:
With super low volume, of course.

Your routine is high volume for chest and beyond high volume for back and quads.

There's a research review to take note of. In it, the researchers looked at 50+ studies on hypertrophy. Experienced lifters did best hitting each muscle group 2 to 3 times per week. Beginners did best with 4 times per week:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17326698


And the meta-analysis that I posted a few times that looked at 177 studies? They found that the best volume and frequency for strength among the experienced athletic population was a mean of 8 sets with 85%1RM done 2x week for a mean volume of 16 sets per week per muscle group. Beginners did best hitting each group 3x per week with 60%1RM (mean volume per week: 12 sets).

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Jason Blaha says a full body can be done 4 times a week by an intermediate, but it's unclear how he would actually program such a thing.

What existing programs and/or what research data out there makes a case that 4 full body sessions per week is good for intermediates?

The reason why beginners can do good with 3-4x frequency is because their low level of fitness results in loads that aren't as taxing to the central nervous system as would the loads be for the same trainees at the 12 to 24 month mark of consistent training.


Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:34 pm
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Verite wrote:
Your routine is high volume for chest and beyond high volume for back and quads.

There's a research review to take note of. In it, the researchers looked at 50+ studies on hypertrophy. Experienced lifters did best hitting each muscle group 2 to 3 times per week. Beginners did best with 4 times per week:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17326698

And the meta-analysis that I posted a few times that looked at 177 studies? They found that the best volume and frequency for strength among the experienced athletic population was a mean of 8 sets with 85%1RM done 2x week for a mean volume of 16 sets per week per muscle group. Beginners did best hitting each group 3x per week with 60%1RM (mean volume per week: 12 sets).

What existing programs and/or what research data out there makes a case that 4 full body sessions per week is good for intermediates?

The reason why beginners can do good with 3-4x frequency is because their low level of fitness results in loads that aren't as taxing to the central nervous system as would the loads be for the same trainees at the 12 to 24 month mark of consistent training.


I haven't hit the 24 month mark of consistent training yet. I'm guessing his idea of a 4 day full body would likely be similar to what I'm currently doing. I can certainly reduce the volume and try to condense it into mostly compound movements, or I would even consider doing another upper/lower split. My volume as is would be 8 sets for all of my upper body muscle groups that aren't my back and chest per week. My concern with back and leg work was in splintering my load into too many different exercises to be performing any of them enough to improve efficiency and effectiveness. I wanted to insure I was hitting all regions of my back properly and with enough frequency, and I'm not sure this can be achieved with one movement. I've revised it to reduce volume to 16 sets for my back, not including RDLs and standard deadlifts, 16 for legs, 12 for chest, 8 for the smaller upper body muscle groups, 4 for calves and 4 for forearm/grip work. I removed scheduled ab/core work and will probably just try and work it in every other workout. If this still is inadvisable, I'll step back and likely do another upper/lower split or perhaps something completely different.

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Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:43 pm
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Even with scaled back volume, I still don't think your routine is a good idea.


Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:24 am
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Verite wrote:
Even with scaled back volume, I still don't think your routine is a good idea.


Understood. I'll do some further research and if I can't make it work, I'll go back to an upper/lower split. Thanks.

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Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:13 pm
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Man that egg yolk makes me wanna VOM.


Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:36 am
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jeevo wrote:
Does masturbating count as physical fitness? That's an activity that I partake in weekly.

Sex is 10x better for you :D

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Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:36 am
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B-Side wrote:
I'll do some further research and if I can't make it work, I'll go back to an upper/lower split. Thanks.

Brad Schoenfeld is, hands down, the fuckin' man when it comes to hypertrophy. Get his book The Max Muscle Plan.

Off the top of my head, other programs I recommend that utilize 4 sessions per week (not 4x frequency) --

-Lyle's Generic Bulking Routine
-Wendler's bodybuilding template for 5/3/1
-Joe De Franco's WS4SB or Washed-Up Meathead template (terrible terrible names, solid programming)
-Eric Cressey's Maximum Strength

All five programs have the option of cardio/conditioning on off-days.

The only 4x frequency that I know of for hypertrophy is Lyle's Ultimate Diet 2.0, but it's only for males at 15% body fat or less. A 2-week break is taken every 6-8 weeks and two of the four sessions use 40-60% 1RM weights.


Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:54 pm
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Verite wrote:
Brad Schoenfeld is, hands down, the fuckin' man when it comes to hypertrophy. Get his book The Max Muscle Plan.

Off the top of my head, other programs I recommend that utilize 4 sessions per week (not 4x frequency) --

-Lyle's Generic Bulking Routine
-Wendler's bodybuilding template for 5/3/1
-Joe De Franco's WS4SB or Washed-Up Meathead template (terrible terrible names, solid programming)
-Eric Cressey's Maximum Strength

All five programs have the option of cardio/conditioning on off-days.

The only 4x frequency that I know of for hypertrophy is Lyle's Ultimate Diet 2.0, but it's only for males at 15% body fat or less. A 2-week break is taken every 6-8 weeks and two of the four sessions use 40-60% 1RM weights.


I actually set up a different 4 day routine after thinking on it some more. It's still full body, but 2 days are strictly strength/compound with maybe half the volume I'm doing right now over 3 days. The other two are hypertrophy, but there are only 8 movements, and the volume is pretty low. With this, I only isolate twice a week, but I'll be benching and squatting all 4 days. Looks like this as it currently stands:

A1: Power/Compound

Squats 3 x 3-5
Deadlift 2 x 3-5
Bench press 3 x 3-5
Barbell row 3 x 3-5
OHP 2 x 3-5

Cardio/abs

A2: Hypertrophy

Squats 2 x 8-10
Lunges 2 x 8-10
Lat pulldown 2 x 8-10
One arm DB row 2 x 8-10
DB bench 3 x 8-10
Lateral raises 2 x 8-10
Skullcrushers 2 x 8-10
Ez bar curls 2 x 8-10

That said, I'm gonna check out the shit you just referenced and see if they suit me or seem to allow for what I'm attempting. I'm gonna deload next week before beginning the new routine.

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Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:55 pm
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Brights, if there's any interest, I can send you an older ebook of Wendler's 5/3/1. But with that said, I'm off to deadlift.

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Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:22 pm
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Immaculate wrote:
Brights, if there's any interest, I can send you an older ebook of Wendler's 5/3/1. But with that said, I'm off to deadlift.


Sure. I'll give it a look. I just checked out those programs, and they seem pretty good. Wendler's seems a bit too strength dominant for me right now. I've been doing nothing but strength work for several months now. I need to start growing a bit in conjunction with my attempts to get stronger, which is why I want to combine both. I think my current plan is reasonable if I keep my calories up, get enough sleep and refrain from training to failure. If I fall on my face, I can always pick up a different routine and give that a go.

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Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:31 pm
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B-Side wrote:
A1: Power/Compound

Squats 3 x 3-5
Deadlift 2 x 3-5
Bench press 3 x 3-5
Barbell row 3 x 3-5
OHP 2 x 3-5

Cardio/abs

A2: Hypertrophy

Squats 2 x 8-10
Lunges 2 x 8-10
Lat pulldown 2 x 8-10
One arm DB row 2 x 8-10
DB bench 3 x 8-10
Lateral raises 2 x 8-10
Skullcrushers 2 x 8-10
Ez bar curls 2 x 8-10


Trying this tonight

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Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:28 pm
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I wouldn't just jump right into something like that. If you don't have at least a reasonably solid base of strength and a year of consistent training, it's probably not going to be very beneficial. If you're a novice, stick to a standard 3 day full body template. Of course, I don't know anything about you, so this may all be misguided advice.

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Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:34 pm
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B-Side wrote:
I wouldn't just jump right into something like that. If you don't have at least a reasonably solid base of strength and a year of consistent training, it's probably not going to be very beneficial. If you're a novice, stick to a standard 3 day full body template. Of course, I don't know anything about you, so this may all be misguided advice.


I have only ever done sit-ups, push ups, pull ups, dumbbells and running.. Not as consistently as I should have, but can push myself in these areas? I am most scared of the sound of squats!

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Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:40 pm
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laskman wrote:
I have only ever done sit-ups, push ups, pull ups, dumbbells and running.. Not as consistently as I should have, but can push myself in these areas? I am most scared of the sound of squats!


I would strongly advise you don't attempt that routine. Try this 3 times a week with at least one day between sessions. You can do cardio whenever.

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Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:49 pm
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Tried a low bar squat for the first time... well, ever. Killed my wrists (suggestions?), and my depth wasn't consistent, but it's definitely a little easier than the high bar. I've got work to do on it, but I can see it being valuable if only for the extra weight I'd be able to put up.

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Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:36 pm
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B-Side wrote:
Tried a low bar squat for the first time... well, ever. Killed my wrists (suggestions?)

I'm assuming because your wrists were in a position of forced extension? Do you typically do anything to stretch your wrists -- could merely be an issue of passive range of motion. Regardless, what part of your wrists were bothering you: volar, dorsal, radial, ulnar, or a combination thereof? I assume both sides bothered you in the same aspect of the wrist? Personally, I've always found a higher bar position more comfortable.

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Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:45 am
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Can anyone help me out on a very basic, easy to do, 1hr> routine for Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays that will still have a good impact on mass building? I'd like to keep my squats and burn sets on bicep and tricep and would like to incorporate my ledge jumps into Saturday. Will not do anything properly that I draft up myself so if anyone's feeling charitable xoxo

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Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:57 pm
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low bar and low range are unnecessary additions to squat that give you a bit of a gain boost but in general just increase the difficulty, discomfort and chance of injury

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Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:02 pm
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Immaculate wrote:
I'm assuming because your wrists were in a position of forced extension? Do you typically do anything to stretch your wrists -- could merely be an issue of passive range of motion. Regardless, what part of your wrists were bothering you: volar, dorsal, radial, ulnar, or a combination thereof? I assume both sides bothered you in the same aspect of the wrist? Personally, I've always found a higher bar position more comfortable.


I don't know what those parts are, but I can say it was due to forcibly extended wrists bearing a rather heavy load. Like I said, it needs work. I find it easier to get a comfortable grip on the bar when going high, but I'm kinda liking the feeling of the low bar (outside of the agonizing wrist pain, of course). Not sure why I couldn't just move my grip forward, but it definitely wasn't easy when I tried it. I do squats today, so I'll see if I can work it out.

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Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:39 pm
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snapper wrote:
low bar and low range are unnecessary additions to squat that give you a bit of a gain boost but in general just increase the difficulty, discomfort and chance of injury


I would think the high bar had the higher risk of injury considering the depth needed to be achieved with a more neutral spine. It practically begs for a serious butt wink, which is hell on the lower back.

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Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:40 pm
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snapper wrote:
Can anyone help me out on a very basic, easy to do, 1hr> routine for Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays that will still have a good impact on mass building? I'd like to keep my squats and burn sets on bicep and tricep and would like to incorporate my ledge jumps into Saturday. Will not do anything properly that I draft up myself so if anyone's feeling charitable xoxo


Try this.

You can do jumps and various other body weight stuff on Saturday as you wish.

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Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:47 pm
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ok so I weigh 73kg and the scales say I have 14% body fat
i'm cutting because cheaper & because my home dumbbells probably don't go far enough so that if I started bulking I'd prob just get fat, no?

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Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:55 pm
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Trip wrote:
ok so I weigh 73kg and the scales say I have 14% body fat
i'm cutting because cheaper & because my home dumbbells probably don't go far enough so that if I started bulking I'd prob just get fat, no?


14% body fat is pretty slim. How heavy do your dumbbells get?

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Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:59 pm
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They are 8kg each not including the bar itself (because you can take weight off and add to them), which could only be like one kg. So ~9kg each.
It's join a gym time.

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Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:38 pm
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Having played sports my entire life and lifted 4x daily for 4 years while playing football, these sorts of conversations are terrifying. How could one possibly separate the pseudo-science from the science? Impossible.

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Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:02 pm
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Were you a hottie LEAVES?

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Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:03 pm
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or a

nottie

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Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:06 pm
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you could juggle 9kg


Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:10 pm
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I know, it's why I'm not getting anywhere. Dunno what gym to choose.

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Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:13 pm
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