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 Love is the Beginning of All Terror: New German Cinema 66-86 
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Post Re: Love is the Beginning of All Terror: New German Cinema 6

Four movies and six posts later, I guess I'm not so good at thread-hogging after all. But, hey, when in doubt, rank! So far I've covered 11 years/11 films, and I think I'd rank them like this:

Alice in the Cities
The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser
Kings of the Road
Artists under the Big Top: Perplexed
Katzelmacher
The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum
Wrong Move
Heinrich
Yesterday Girl
I Only Want You to Love Me
Shadow of Angels



EDIT: That's not to say I won't watch the rest of my list. I will. I need wig to come back, though!

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Tue May 03, 2016 5:45 am
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I'll be back-back-forreal-back June 1st. I've fallen in love and my world shall soon turn to order once again

Edit: Great ranking! Love the countdown 10-1 structure! :P


Mon May 16, 2016 8:09 am
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wigwam wrote:
Love the countdown 10-1 structure! :P
Haha! Aw...

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Tue May 17, 2016 12:51 pm
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I wish I could get a few people to watch this one and discuss it. So strange! In Palermo oder Wolfsburg, Schroeter sets up an Italy of sunshine and shouting (and lots of other stereotypes). Then he sends his impossibly innocent hero into a grim Germany of dark prejudice and fickle women. The fun is in the stylized shots, in contrast and angles, while the story marches tritely on. Of course Nicola commits an impulsive murder. Of course he's caught and brought to trial. But now it gets weird. One of the judges falls asleep. A witness gets a makeover mid-testimony. The defense attorney crawls into the prosecutor's lap. But the surrealism doesn't seem any more meaningful than the earlier clichés! I'm entertained, but thoroughly confused.

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Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:56 am
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hi SMaiden!! I'm going to watch this tomorrow, thx for keeping the flame alive, you're the best!


Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:48 pm
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Yes, please! I haven't been here in forever, but New German Cinema is still on my mind. :)

I'm watching Schroeter all out of order, for some reason. I've only seen Malina and now Palermo. Guess I'll go back and catch at least Eika Katappa.

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Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:44 am
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Palermo oder Wolfsburg | Werner Schroeter | 1980 | DISLIKED

It had great atmosphere and energy in the first/Italy part (and maybe the change is thematic) but the 2nd half was too tedious for me so I was desensitized by the time the weirdness kicks in and it's didn't even register with me [also I watched the two parts in two sittings, which can't have helped?]

I think we have another San Domingo here between us, SMaiden :( I defer to you and your superior quality of viewership, of course

but thx again for keeping it going and inspiring me to get back to these! danke :heart:


Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:42 pm
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Shieldmaiden wrote:
This is how good Alice in the Cities is: so good I was compelled to watch the rest of the trilogy before I could move on. And, how good is the road trilogy? Great! I didn't want it to end.
I've been watching all of Wenders' 70s movies recently as part of a Robby Müller retrospective in Amsterdam. And I have to agree about Alice, even though it ended being the last one I saw. For a moment I thought it might even become my new favorite Wenders, but today they screened Until the End of the World in its full 5 hour, newly restored version, with Wenders in attendance and I might have to reconsider. Still mulling over that film though. Such a rich experience, with so much going on in it and so much to think about. It certainly seems to me to be the most Wenders of all Wenders, the ultimate Wenders if you will. Also got to shake his hand and get his autograph.

Shieldmaiden wrote:
Wrong Move is a quirky, rather weightless adaptation of a novel (the original Bildungsroman) by Goethe. I'm not sure how many ideas made it through the transformation, though there are some weird, meta things going on (very Certified Copy-like) that probably make more sense to readers of the book. It's entertaining, if not as great as the other two in the series. Still, the colors are warm, Schygulla and Kinski are beautiful, and the camera-work is delightful, so it holds its own.

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I haven't read the book but I do know that all the dialogue was written for the movie by Peter Handke. And the conclusion of the film is the opposite of the novel, with Wilhelm ultimately not going through the "bildung" he thought he'd get from the trip. I don't know if the search for meaning ending with a subversion of that makes it weightless though, with all the alienation, suicide, the not-to-mention Nazi and war past (the national 'wrong move'), it seemed more like one of his heavier movies to me.

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Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:57 am
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Colonel Kurz wrote:
Until the End of the World
ultimate Wenders

:up:


Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:21 am
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Colonel Kurz wrote:
Such a rich experience, with so much going on in it and so much to think about. It certainly seems to me to be the most Wenders of all Wenders, the ultimate Wenders if you will.
Oh, yeah, I agree. :)
Quote:
I haven't read the book but I do know that all the dialogue was written for the movie by Peter Handke. And the conclusion of the film is the opposite of the novel, with Wilhelm ultimately not going through the "bildung" he thought he'd get from the trip. I don't know if the search for meaning ending with a subversion of that makes it weightless though, with all the alienation, suicide, the not-to-mention Nazi and war past (the national 'wrong move'), it seemed more like one of his heavier movies to me.
Good points, and, yeah, kind of silly of me to draw conclusions about a book I haven't read. But my "weightless" comment was really more about style. The characters are so aimless. It reminds me a little bit of Bartas. Sure, there are heavy reasons behind it, but the characters are still just drifting.

wigwam wrote:
:up:
Don't you want to watch some New German Cinema, wig?

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Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:04 am
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Shieldmaiden wrote:
Don't you want to watch some New German Cinema, wig?


I do! I saw a couple recently when I stopped dating to avoid Halloween parties, but need to update here. I have to start taking off Mondays to burn off my PTO balance at this new job so I'll be watchong more soon

the title film of this thread is spectacular by the way!!


Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:17 pm
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wigwam wrote:
Eika Katappa | Werner Schroeter | 1969 | LOVED

Oh, I agree! At first I wondered what you'd gotten me into, but once I fell into the rhythm of operatic images and silliness, I had a lot of fun. I really enjoyed Magdalena Montezuma. She has a beautiful silent film star face and apparently endless enthusiasm for what Shroeter is doing. (Don't miss her Quasimodo!) As far as what exactly Schroeter is doing, I'm not even going to guess. The main theme seemed to be performance, so I concentrated on absorbing. Though I admit I did do a little armchair psychologizing of Werner Schroeter, haha. What did you think of the Maria Callas stills? Affectionate or hostile?

Pro tip for anyone thinking of watching this: You really don't need subtitles. There are several languages being spoken (and sung), there's no plot to understand, and the key speeches seem to be in English for some reason anyway.

Image Image

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Wed May 30, 2018 5:26 am
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siiiiiiick! I remember this movie being crazy (but not the Callas stills? can they be both in a sick sadistic way?)

I'm gonna watch some Schroeter this weekend thx for reviving this thread (:

PS I want to know what your armchair psychologizing resulted in...


Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:11 pm
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wigwam wrote:
PS I want to know what your armchair psychologizing resulted in...
Nothing too deep. When the woman in my pic above (right) is in her nightgown and looking the worse for wear, it's quite a contrast to the sparkly dress and flowers of her imagination. There's a young man in the room in the former scenes. So I'm guessing Werner had a complex relationship (empathy, loathing) with his mother. (See also all the histrionic women and hapless, dying men, haha.) And that answers the question above about the Callas stills. I think they're probably both, yeah.

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Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:41 am
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Sisters, or the Balance of Happiness is a well-told story of creepy relationships, with a strong Persona influence. It's really good! I love the way the film itself is a sort of trick with mirrors. Perhaps it's a bit too schematic? It is right out of a psychology text book, but I think it works. Still, the most compelling parts leave things to the imagination – those brief flashbacks to childhood, the awkward figure of the mother.

Also, there's a clear sightline to the Berlin School here, though the drab colors wouldn't fit. There's the same everyday feel (work-life, cooking, driving), the slowly revealed uneasiness under those surfaces, the (very subtle) situational humor. I should revisit Jedi's thread to see if there's any mention of von Trotta.

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Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:17 am
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I had a hard time with Madame X: An Absolute Ruler. It gets off to a good start (pure Wes Anderson) as various women intercept a secret message calling them to adventure at sea. But once on board, it's a lot like Rivette's female pirate movie, Noroît, in that scenes go on so long I'd forget who was who. Not that characters or plot matter much, haha. There are some great bits (the food seduction, the bathing grotto, the do-over ending), and I enjoyed the silly sound effects; but overall it left me as cold as Daisies. I guess maybe these girls-gone-amuck movies aren't for me.

I did think of Kira Muratova once or twice, and wondered if the weird scene in The Asthenic Syndrome where some girls tear a fish to shreds was meant to echo the chopstick scene here:

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Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) ▪ Hocus Pocus ▪ Night of the Comet ▪ Nadja ▪ Deathdream ▪ Bad Timing ▪ Tremors ▪ Dishonored ▪ Flamingo Road ▪ Let the Sunshine In ▪ Céleste

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Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:27 am
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Shieldmaiden wrote:
it left me as cold as Daisies.

Whart! :?:

Shieldmaiden wrote:
I guess maybe these girls-gone-amuck movies aren't for me.

That's fine. That's all the more amuck for me.


Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:42 pm
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Jinnistan wrote:
Whart! :?:
Yeah, I'm infamous around here for disliking that one.

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That's fine. That's all the more amuck for me.
Haha. You can have them!

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Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:45 pm
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Die Endlose Nacht (1963) - dir. Will Tremper

I have virtually no knowledge of German cinema between 1945-1966, outside of a random Eva Bartok flick or two. This film, from 1963, moves the hashmarks a little bit, but its writer/director, Will Tremper, is considered an early German analogue of Nouvelle Vague filmmaking. It isn't surprising that he's obscure though, as it seems he finished up the decade by moving into soft-core comedies.

This film, however, does very acutely draw on the contemporary influences of its Italian, French and British neighbors (and, presciently, channeling a little of Altman's ensemble humor). The situation is straightforward - an airport is shut down due to poor weather and its passengers find ways to spend their time interacting, conniving, drinking and bowling (because German airports have bowling alleys?) The charms then are with the actors, or more precisely the actresses (all of whom exceed the males in their roles), and the trivial frivolities of their best laid plans.

Not an essential film, and understandably not part of the New Cinema canon, but a very "new wave" film nonetheless. Now I want to check out Tremper's 50s biker rebel films with Horst Buchholz :shifty:


Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:46 am
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Shieldmaiden wrote:
I had a hard time with Madame X: An Absolute Ruler. It gets off to a good start (pure Wes Anderson) as various women intercept a secret message calling them to adventure at sea. But once on board, it's a lot like Rivette's female pirate movie, Noroît, in that scenes go on so long I'd forget who was who. Not that characters or plot matter much, haha. There are some great bits (the food seduction, the bathing grotto, the do-over ending), and I enjoyed the silly sound effects; but overall it left me as cold as Daisies. I guess maybe these girls-gone-amuck movies aren't for me.

I just saw this and loved it, it felt kinda like that Luc Moullet western with Leaud, but also I was smitten since Yvonne Rainer was in it

I also dislike Daisies and can see how the energies of the two are the same, I felt like this articulated something more useful about female solidarity (which I can mansplain to you if you need... :P )


Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:39 am
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Female solidarity? Sure, they all longed for solidarity, but they failed quite badly at it! Unless we're talking about the ending/epilogue, which I admit was awesome and hopeful. Mansplain away!

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Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:18 am
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no I was just kidding abt mansplaining, I know nothing, but yeah the ending and just their whole escape and banding together to chase a utopia and everything


Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:22 am
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:)

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Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:31 am
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Shieldmaiden wrote:
but overall it left me as cold as Daisies.


If we're taking the temperature of Daisies, I probably lean more towards the cold side as well. But, after a recent rewatch, I'm thawing a bit. I like it. But it's one of those movies I'm equally curious about the opinion of those who love it as to those who could completely do without it. I sometimes feel weird being stranded in the middle of a film that seems to have pretty strong reactions either way. Polarization is usually the defining aspect of almost everything I am drawn to, and with this one, not so much.

What I am basically asking for is for some people to expound a bit on Daisies. Yourself or Janson. This is one of those times I'm sad that billtheburger never made the leap here, since I am pretty sure this was one of his favourite movies (if not his favourite), and he was a fountain of good opinions.


Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:13 pm
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It's been too long, sorry. I remember my reaction more than the actual film. It's not that I don't like slapstick or absurdity or tangled allegory. I love Birds, Orphans, Fools, for example, and Celine and Julie Go Boating. And I've had passionate reactions to Greenaway films that have been described (in this forum) as cold and alien. But the antics in Daisies left me as blank as the actresses' stares.

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Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:07 pm
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crumbsroom wrote:
This is one of those times I'm sad that billtheburger never made the leap here, since I am pretty sure this was one of his favourite movies (if not his favourite), and he was a fountain of good opinions.

I was thinking about his occult thread the other day. I got into an argument with someone who says he doesn't like occult films, but his favorite film happens to be Manchurian Candidate. I realized that what he meant is that he doesn't like satanic-themed films, but I went ahead and noted to him that Candidate is deeply occult as a point of fact, dealing with the manipulation of subconscious symbolism. The comparison with Caligari is quite clear, Cure maybe more so.

Anyway, bill's occult thread did have a strong German flavor to it, even if more on the Expressionist side.


Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:55 am
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Sheer Madness is great – a really good feminist film! The plotting is satisfyingly messy (like real life); the characters are three-dimensional (even the men); the pedantry is diagetic (classroom and trip to Egypt). I love the natural way the relationships build, the surprising lightness of touch with what could have been melodrama, the ambiguity of the ending. Oh, yeah, and the dark hints of mother-daughter relationships (in both this and in Sisters). I need to see more by von Trotta!


Back to my list, if that's where you want to go.

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Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:46 am
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Shieldmaiden wrote:
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Sheer Madness is great – a really good feminist film! The plotting is satisfyingly messy (like real life); the characters are three-dimensional (even the men); the pedantry is diagetic (classroom and trip to Egypt). I love the natural way the relationships build, the surprising lightness of touch with what could have been melodrama, the ambiguity of the ending. Oh, yeah, and the dark hints of mother-daughter relationships (in both this and in Sisters). I need to see more by von Trotta!


That bottom left screenshot and your avatar are like deja vu.


Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:51 am
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*covering eyes*

Just got back from Barry Lyndon and am starting it now!


Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:01 am
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I havent seen any of her movies in a couple of years so maybe all I was attuned to before was how her spectrums of female personalities differ yet compliment and mostly fall naturally into helping each other but what jumped out at me here was how uniformly each male is so suffocatingly selfish and it felt terrifying and true, what a great movie!

will add more and/or respond to specifics tomorrow, I'm exhausted, ouch


Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:54 pm
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Takoma1 wrote:
That bottom left screenshot and your avatar are like deja vu.
Yep. Even the colors! Although now I feel a Hanna Schuygulla avatar coming on...

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Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) ▪ Hocus Pocus ▪ Night of the Comet ▪ Nadja ▪ Deathdream ▪ Bad Timing ▪ Tremors ▪ Dishonored ▪ Flamingo Road ▪ Let the Sunshine In ▪ Céleste

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Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:03 am
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wigwam wrote:
what a great movie!
Yes!

I don't know if you've seen Sisters, or the Balance of Happiness yet, but the women aren't really "helping each other" in that one.

And, yes, Franz is terrifying. I hated him, but I also believe he was scared of losing her. He genuinely thought he was doing the right thing every time. Like if Charles Boyer genuinely thought he was helping Ingrid Bergman. Eek!

Can't wait to hear more thoughts!

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Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) ▪ Hocus Pocus ▪ Night of the Comet ▪ Nadja ▪ Deathdream ▪ Bad Timing ▪ Tremors ▪ Dishonored ▪ Flamingo Road ▪ Let the Sunshine In ▪ Céleste

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Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:03 am
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no I havent seen Sisters yet, Im thinking more of Marianne & Juliane or Second Awakening, it's always a span of very different women and there are some who are against the protagonists or neutral which reinforces the male/patriarchal antagonism, it's just something interesting to me where it's not competition for survival and it's also not teaming up to prove something about themselves, when there's help or empathy or compassion it's always from an instinctual generosity, idk maybe I just notice it because it's so foreign to me and my worldview haha but also I just dont notice it in other movies

which movie is your current av from? if you do change to Hanna I'm excited to see you match your font colors, that's always lovely how you do that with

lmk when you can watch more and which you want to see...


Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:15 am
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wigwam wrote:
no I havent seen Sisters yet, Im thinking more of Marianne & Juliane or Second Awakening, it's always a span of very different women and there are some who are against the protagonists or neutral which reinforces the male/patriarchal antagonism, it's just something interesting to me where it's not competition for survival and it's also not teaming up to prove something about themselves, when there's help or empathy or compassion it's always from an instinctual generosity, idk maybe I just notice it because it's so foreign to me and my worldview haha but also I just dont notice it in other movies
Got it. I have so much yet to see! (And I'm somehow just noticing that she adapted my favorite play by Chekhov, Three Sisters.) But, yeah, Olga is an extremely generous character, to everyone, not just Ruth. And, unfortunately, it has the usual effect on the people around her.

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which movie is your current av from?
It's Casa de lava.

Quote:
if you do change to Hanna I'm excited to see you match your font colors, that's always lovely how you do that with
Haha, thanks!

Quote:
lmk when you can watch more and which you want to see...
I will! I have some more Ken Russell to watch first.

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Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:57 am
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Oh, yeah, and I meant to say von Trotta has a very lovely, clear-eyed view of people. She can't help but show them in all their complexity even as they follow circumscribed paths set into motion at the start of the film. And, what impresses me about her message is that it's done so... I want to say "subtly," but it's not, it's all stated explicitly. So I'll say "skillfully," in that I don't feel preached to, even in the classroom settings.

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Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) ▪ Hocus Pocus ▪ Night of the Comet ▪ Nadja ▪ Deathdream ▪ Bad Timing ▪ Tremors ▪ Dishonored ▪ Flamingo Road ▪ Let the Sunshine In ▪ Céleste

Voyage | Female Gaze | MACBETH | Sokurov | Fassbinder | Greenaway | Denis | Sono | my bookshelf


Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:06 am
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Post Re: Love is the Beginning of All Terror: New German Cinema 6

yeah, skillfully and organically

did you see Olga's son as developing selfishness/entitlement the other men were already deep into? I wanted to see more of her relationship with him kinda

Im so stoked for you to see more Russell!


Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:44 am
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Post Re: Love is the Beginning of All Terror: New German Cinema 6

wigwam wrote:
did you see Olga's son as developing selfishness/entitlement the other men were already deep into? I wanted to see more of her relationship with him kinda
He seemed pretty normal to me – until Ruth was in the hospital and all he could say was, "Would you ever do that?" I mean, that's a very normal reaction from a young child, but he's surely old enough to also manage some empathy and affection when he knows she's upset. So, yeah, I guess that's a clue...

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Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) ▪ Hocus Pocus ▪ Night of the Comet ▪ Nadja ▪ Deathdream ▪ Bad Timing ▪ Tremors ▪ Dishonored ▪ Flamingo Road ▪ Let the Sunshine In ▪ Céleste

Voyage | Female Gaze | MACBETH | Sokurov | Fassbinder | Greenaway | Denis | Sono | my bookshelf


Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:31 am
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Post Re: Love is the Beginning of All Terror: New German Cinema 6

and just how put upon he seems that she has Ruth or Alexej there

and he's like "I'm thirsty..." knowing she'll get him a drink

his reaction at the hospital didnt even register to me cuz of Ruth's guy going "How could she do this to me..."


Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:54 am
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Post Re: Love is the Beginning of All Terror: New German Cinema 6

omg the new av! *heart eyes emoji*


Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:55 am
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Post Re: Love is the Beginning of All Terror: New German Cinema 6

wigwam wrote:
and just how put upon he seems that she has Ruth or Alexej there

and he's like "I'm thirsty..." knowing she'll get him a drink
Yeah, but even good teenagers are still... teenagers, haha.

Quote:
omg the new av! *heart eyes emoji*
:)

_________________
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) ▪ Hocus Pocus ▪ Night of the Comet ▪ Nadja ▪ Deathdream ▪ Bad Timing ▪ Tremors ▪ Dishonored ▪ Flamingo Road ▪ Let the Sunshine In ▪ Céleste

Voyage | Female Gaze | MACBETH | Sokurov | Fassbinder | Greenaway | Denis | Sono | my bookshelf


Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:55 am
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Post Re: Love is the Beginning of All Terror: New German Cinema 6

yo SMaiden lets watch an NGC this weekend


Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:23 am
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Post Re: Love is the Beginning of All Terror: New German Cinema 6

wigwam wrote:
yo SMaiden lets watch an NGC this weekend
Aw, I just saw this, sorry! This week's been really crazy. I think I could do it this weekend, though. Sunday? I have Love is the Beginning of..., Celeste (1980), and Uliisses. would any of those work for you?

_________________
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) ▪ Hocus Pocus ▪ Night of the Comet ▪ Nadja ▪ Deathdream ▪ Bad Timing ▪ Tremors ▪ Dishonored ▪ Flamingo Road ▪ Let the Sunshine In ▪ Céleste

Voyage | Female Gaze | MACBETH | Sokurov | Fassbinder | Greenaway | Denis | Sono | my bookshelf


Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:23 pm
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hahaha sorry I just saw THIS!

is Celeste the Proust movie?!?! gimme your opinion on that I love it but Im obsessed with him and her memoir of him

we'll do the other two next time we can synch up


Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:47 am
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wigwam wrote:
is Celeste the Proust movie?!?! gimme your opinion on that I love it but Im obsessed with him and her memoir of him
OK, I'll watch that next. :)

_________________
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) ▪ Hocus Pocus ▪ Night of the Comet ▪ Nadja ▪ Deathdream ▪ Bad Timing ▪ Tremors ▪ Dishonored ▪ Flamingo Road ▪ Let the Sunshine In ▪ Céleste

Voyage | Female Gaze | MACBETH | Sokurov | Fassbinder | Greenaway | Denis | Sono | my bookshelf


Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:41 am
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Post Re: Love is the Beginning of All Terror: New German Cinema 6

Image Image
Image Image

Ahhh, Céleste is so good! Adlon's style is deceptively simple, very gradually filling in all the pieces of the puzzle – in flashbacks and flash-forwards, in small moments of understanding – and finally exposing the full, improbable, beautiful relationship between a deeply eccentric, brilliant invalid and a woman perfectly suited to be his maid, nurse, secretary, and confidant. Though mostly confined to the five rooms of a small apartment and limited to Céleste's demanding, unchanging routine, we feel an electric excitement and suspense as the man she calls 'Monsieur' struggles to finish his life's work.

I want to write more, but I think you should just watch it instead!


Back to my list, if that's where you want to go.

_________________
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) ▪ Hocus Pocus ▪ Night of the Comet ▪ Nadja ▪ Deathdream ▪ Bad Timing ▪ Tremors ▪ Dishonored ▪ Flamingo Road ▪ Let the Sunshine In ▪ Céleste

Voyage | Female Gaze | MACBETH | Sokurov | Fassbinder | Greenaway | Denis | Sono | my bookshelf


Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:05 am
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