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 We Didn't Start The 80s 
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Wooley wrote:
I totally dig Falco.

Wooley wrote:
I like that song. :shifty:

Thief wrote:
I kinda like Don Johnson's "Heartbeat" :shifty:

Apex Predator wrote:
I liked the Bruce Willis one. But She's Like the Wind is OK, too.

Apex Predator wrote:
Kinda prefer Blaze of Glory myself. But yeah, I liked Livin' on a Prayer, too.

Thief wrote:
Name an 80's "hair metal" band and I probably like something of them :D


You're killin' me, fellas! :)

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Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:17 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
Duran Duran, ftr, were much better. John Taylor was one of the funkiest bassists of the decade.

As a Hard-Rocker it was my duty to hate Duran Duran at the time, but even I had to admit Power Station rocked.

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Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:25 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
These are the choices?

Pat Benatar, Chaka Khan, Sade, Heart, Teena Marie, Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam, The Bangles, The Go Gos, The Slits, The Raincoats, Siouxie and the Banshees, Anita Baker, Bananarama? Little girl known as Madonna? I will listen to goddamn Klymaxx before I consider Taylor Dayne or Debbie Gibson viable fucking options.


You're welcome.


Most of the artists you mentioned were better. Ones in bold I hadn't heard of/heard about/question about being better (mainly Lisa Lisa).

And I will grant Duran Duran and Power Station their dues. Hell, DD is still doing pretty good music NOW.


Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:48 am
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Captain Terror wrote:






You're killin' me, fellas! :)

Keep in mind, "Puttin' On The Ritz" was written by Irving Fucking Berlin, has appeared as the centerpiece of multiple musical films, and was famously performed by both Bing Crosby and Gene Wilder/Peter Boyle.
"...the central device in the A section is the "use of delayed rhythmic resolution: a staggering, off-balance passage, emphasized by the unorthodox stresses in the lyric, suddenly resolves satisfyingly on a held note, followed by the forceful assertion of the title phrase." The marchlike B section, which is only barely syncopated, acts as a contrast to the previous rhythmic complexities. According to Alec Wilder, in his study of American popular song, for him, the rhythmic pattern in "Puttin' On the Ritz" is "the most complex and provocative I have ever come upon."


Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:17 pm
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Don't mind me, I'm being way too judgmental for a guy that owned a Quiet Riot record. Metal health drove me mad, what can I say?

Fun fact: In the late 70s Don Johnson was part of the Allman Brothers' social circle and sang backup on a song or two, also got a co-writing credit here and there. This probably had nothing to do with cocaine.

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Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:48 pm
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Captain Terror wrote:
As a Hard-Rocker it was my duty to hate Duran Duran at the time, but even I had to admit Power Station rocked.

"Some Like It Hot" was a legit great single (rest of their album, meh), but even on the better known Duran stuff Taylor can do some amazing things with the instrument. The complexity of his patterns is probably too subtle for the average listener (and the joke is always how nobody pays attention to the bass anyway), but Taylor found some kind of middle ground between Bernard Edwards and Sting, between disco and reggae-inflected new wave, and was nimbly fluid between both. He was always the band's secret weapon.

Captain Terror wrote:
This probably had nothing to do with cocaine.

It took till the fourth page before the white elephant of the decade showed up.


Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:36 pm
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As a whole, I found the '80s, musically, the worse decade to date for talent. With that being said, every decade has their superstars but overall underwhelming. Between hair bands, elementary rap, pop tarts and new age fodder that never heard of a guitar or bass.

Odd that I found the film scene the same way. No, I was not abused or molested during this period. Just my view....


Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:00 pm
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Speaking of Duran Duran, thoughts on Arcadia?

Election Day makes a fine opening statement, but never heard more from them.


Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:02 am
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Apex Predator wrote:
Speaking of Duran Duran, thoughts on Arcadia?

Election Day makes a fine opening statement, but never heard more from them.

They were just a side project, concurrent with Power Station. Probably weren't meant to be anything more substantial.

Another underrated 80s bass player is Devo's Gerald Casale. Stiff in the right places.


Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:42 am
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Thief wrote:
I grew up surrounded by "hair metal", so I'm not ashamed to admit it's a genre I gravitate to frequently. I do acknowledge some of its shortcomings, and obviously my tastes have grown beyond that, but I enjoy it. Name an 80's "hair metal" band and I probably like something of them :D
HM was always one of my least favorite sub-genres of metal, but even I'll admit that I enjoy a number of the singles that Def Leppard released during that decade...

:oops:
John Dumbear wrote:
As a whole, I found the '80s, musically, the worse decade to date for talent. With that being said, every decade has their superstars but overall underwhelming. Between hair bands, elementary rap, pop tarts and new age fodder that never heard of a guitar or bass.

Odd that I found the film scene the same way. No, I was not abused or molested during this period. Just my view....
Well for me, as a mostly metal sort of guy, the 80's were pretty good for me; of course, during the early part of that decade you've got plenty of classic releases from the New Wave of British Heavy Metal, but you also basically saw the births of modern thrash and death metal later in that decade, as well as the seeds being planted for what would eventually grow to be black metal during the 90's, and those 3 styles are, as far as I'm concerned, the most important trio of metal genres, and that's not even going into all the other exciting stuff that was going on grindcore, doom, and power metal during that period, so the 80's were rather kind to the more metallic musics, definitely.

As for 80's movies, while they weren't as good as what was going on during the 70's (New Hollywood ftw!), or the 90's for that matter, at the very least, it was the best decade for Action movies, easily; I mean, we saw the releases of Escape From New York, The Road Warrior, AND Raiders Of The Lost Ark, and that was just in '81 alone, let alone all the other classic actioners that came out later...

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Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:36 am
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Stu wrote:
HM was always one of my least favorite sub-genres of metal, but even I'll admit that I enjoy a number of the singles that Def Leppard released during that decade...


Def Leppard used to be my older brother's "favorite" band so I picked up on that a lot. I still listen to them frequently.

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Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:01 am
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Pyromania was the first LP I ever bought (age 12 or so), not counting my childhood Kiss records, so it's got high nostalgia value for me. Listened to that for an entire year, but by the time Hysteria came out I'd completely abandoned Def Leppard. I still like the first 3 albums though.
For a couple of years my entire record collection consisted of 1. Pyromania and 2. the Rocky III soundtrack.

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Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:58 am
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Captain Terror wrote:
Pyromania was the first LP I ever bought (age 12 or so), not counting my childhood Kiss records, so it's got high nostalgia value for me. Listened to that for an entire year, but by the time Hysteria came out I'd completely abandoned Def Leppard. I still like the first 3 albums though.
For a couple of years my entire record collection consisted of 1. Pyromania and 2. the Rocky III soundtrack.


Pyromania would probably be my favorite album of them, but my favorite Def Leppard song ("Bringin' on the Heartbreak") is from their previous album.

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Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:11 am
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Thief wrote:

Pyromania would probably be my favorite album of them, but my favorite Def Leppard song ("Bringin' on the Heartbreak") is from their previous album.

:up:
The 2nd album became my favorite as I reached adulthood.

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Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:13 am
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Captain Terror wrote:
by the time Hysteria came out I'd completely abandoned Def Leppard.

I should clarify: By the time Hysteria came out I'd completely abandoned Def Leppard and any other band that was new or current. I was a full-blown contrarian by that point, so I wasn't specifically singling out DL. This means I escaped the Metal scene before things got even cheesier, but it also means I missed G'n'R among others. My one friend and I were convinced we were cool, at least. :)

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Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:21 am
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I think each decade had its share of hits and misses musically. Even the 70s (my least favorite decade because it drowned itself with disco, cringey soft pop rock, and dull progressive rock) had Led Zeppelin, Blondie, The Ramones, and James Brown to ease the pain.

As for film, I think there were some good times for both action (Die Hard, Commando, Lethal Weapon) and comedy (Caddyshack, Airplane!, The Naked Gun, Ghostbusters).


Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:54 am
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Apex Predator wrote:
Even the 70s

I would argue that the 1970s represented a peak in African American music, a culmination of the blues, jazz, R/B and soul which had preceded it, embodied by the eclecticism of the ensembles which encompassed all of these genres, as well as fostering the future of dance and hip-hop by embracing deconstructive electronics. The commercial constraints which held Motown to AM radio were lifted, liberating artists like Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye and Norman Whitfield to their most classic work. Post-Coltrane jazz filtered freely through the more expansive and culturally conscious soul music (Earth Wind & Fire, Mandrill, Osibisa, etc). Funk, as pioneered through the foundation of James Brown, Sly Stone and George Clinton, was perfected during this period (and, arguably, Brown and Stone also peaked in their early 70s period). Aretha Franklin, Curtis Mayfield, Al Green and Diana Ross were all at the top of their game. Miles Davis was making extraterrestrially innovative music which still sounds like the future 40 years later. This was the last decade when one could still reliably be able to catch such blues pioneers as Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf and Lightnin' Hopkins before that generation died off. In a Bronx basement, hip-hop is born, but we get its first fruits in Treacherous Three, Cold Crush Brothers and the Sugarhill Gang by the end of the decade. And, obviously, disco wasn't really all that bad anyway. Real disco, I mean, not that Bee Gee horseshit.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:57 pm
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Jinnistan wrote:
And, obviously, disco wasn't really all that bad anyway. Real disco, I mean, not that Bee Gee horseshit.


You mean gems like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjw1aQ0M9WM

;)


Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:11 pm
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John Dumbear wrote:

Great track, but not the best performance of it. Labelle, Donna Summer, Chic, all of that stuff.

It's true that the more spiritual and community-minded messages of love and togetherness turned a bit hedonistic in the later years of the decade, but it was all good times.


Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:20 pm
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John Dumbear wrote:

Beyonce would be so much cooler if she occasionally whipped out a Fender bass on stage.

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Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:33 pm
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Jinnistan wrote:
I would argue that the 1970s represented a peak in African American music, a culmination of the blues, jazz, R/B and soul which had preceded it, embodied by the eclecticism of the ensembles which encompassed all of these genres, as well as fostering the future of dance and hip-hop by embracing deconstructive electronics. The commercial constraints which held Motown to AM radio were lifted, liberating artists like Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye and Norman Whitfield to their most classic work. Post-Coltrane jazz filtered freely through the more expansive and culturally conscious soul music (Earth Wind & Fire, Mandrill, Osibisa, etc). Funk, as pioneered through the foundation of James Brown, Sly Stone and George Clinton, was perfected during this period (and, arguably, Brown and Stone also peaked in their early 70s period). Aretha Franklin, Curtis Mayfield, Al Green and Diana Ross were all at the top of their game. Miles Davis was making extraterrestrially innovative music which still sounds like the future 40 years later. This was the last decade when one could still reliably be able to catch such blues pioneers as Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf and Lightnin' Hopkins before that generation died off. In a Bronx basement, hip-hop is born, but we get its first fruits in Treacherous Three, Cold Crush Brothers and the Sugarhill Gang by the end of the decade. And, obviously, disco wasn't really all that bad anyway. Real disco, I mean, not that Bee Gee horseshit.

I agree completely, and we also got Progressive Rock like King Crimson, Yes, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Jethro Tull. We got the dawn of Punk Rock, especially the first three Clash albums. We got the best of Bowie's work, one album after another. As you mention, Marvin Gaye spread his wings and gave us some of the best music ever made, as did Stevie. We got funk, the gritty-ass Meters layin' it down to be sampled by rap/hip-hop artists for decades. Hell, there was even some great COUNTRY music in the 70s (Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard, etc.).
And I'm sure you and I could go on and on. On the surface the 70s had some weak material, as did the 50s, 60s, 80s, and everything since. But there is so much incredible stuff from that decade, it makes up the bulk of my record-collection.
Now the 90s were shit, I'll give you that.


Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:15 am
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Wooley wrote:
We got funk, the gritty-ass Meters layin' it down to be sampled by rap/hip-hop artists for decades.

Ah yes. I forgot about the Allen Toussant/Dr. John dominated New Orleans scene, which brought a whole other avenue in the nexus of a melange of musical tradition and invention.

Wooley wrote:
Now the 90s were shit, I'll give you that.

Boo. The 90s had all kinds of scenes under the radar as well. And even still, simply the fact that groups like Ween, Mr. Bungle, The Boredoms, Dr. Octogon, Jesus Lizard or Daniel Johnston got major label deals and distribution is pretty extraordinary. If you're familiar with Beck's earliest "soul manure", then even his getting a major record deal seems like a minor miracle.


Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:31 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
Ah yes. I forgot about the Allen Toussant/Dr. John dominated New Orleans scene, which brought a whole other avenue in the nexus of a melange of musical tradition and invention.


Boo. The 90s had all kinds of scenes under the radar as well. And even still, simply the fact that groups like Ween, Mr. Bungle, The Boredoms, Dr. Octogon, Jesus Lizard or Daniel Johnston got major label deals and distribution is pretty extraordinary. If you're familiar with Beck's earliest "soul manure", then even his getting a major record deal seems like a minor miracle.

Hee hee. That was a joke, I can't really say that every decade had good music... except THIS ONE! That doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
I will say that there seems to be less music that has stood the test of time from that decade as from any I can think of before it. I mean in terms of Giants that continue to be listened to and influence today. But I also just didn't really care for most of the music from back then. Mazzy Star, A Tribe Called Quest, Portishead, and The Cowboy Junkies excluded, of course. Maybe Pantera too.


Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:17 am
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Wooley wrote:
On the surface the 70s had some weak material, as did the 50s, 60s, 80s, and everything since. But there is so much incredible stuff from that decade, it makes up the bulk of my record-collection.

Same here, the 70s are my home base, musically speaking. And the more I dig the more stuff I find, stuff that was hidden from a suburban US boy like myself. Krautrock, for example.
I'm sure the same could be said of any decade, but the 70s happens to be the one I've concentrated on the most.

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:09 am
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I really like Full Metal Jacket (all of it, not just the first act) and think R. Lee Ermey is one of the reasons why it is so great.

but I remain uneasy that is it embraced by the sort of right-wingers (including Ermey himself) who you think would be put off by a movie that portrays military leadership and the theater of war in such a negative light. and a lot of the tributes to Ermey have reminded be of that feeling. maybe the simplest thing I can say that is that Truffaut continues to be right about anti-war movies. although I don't put the onus on Kubrick.


Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:29 am
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Captain Terror wrote:
Same here, the 70s are my home base, musically speaking. And the more I dig the more stuff I find, stuff that was hidden from a suburban US boy like myself. Krautrock, for example.
I'm sure the same could be said of any decade, but the 70s happens to be the one I've concentrated on the most.

We need a "I Love the '70s" group hug. :up:


Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:42 am
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Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
I really like Full Metal Jacket (all of it, not just the first act) and think R. Lee Ermey is one of the reasons why it is so great.

but I remain uneasy that is it embraced by the sort of right-wingers (including Ermey himself) who you think would be put off by a movie that portrays military leadership and the theater of war in such a negative light. and a lot of the tributes to Ermey have reminded be of that feeling. maybe the simplest thing I can say that is that Truffaut continues to be right about anti-war movies. although I don't put the onus on Kubrick.


Although I understand Truffaut's sentiment, I don't necessarily agree with it. One of the most common interpretations of his quote is that an anti-war film will undoubtedly end up "glorifying" war and the thrill of combat, but as long as there's enough weight on the other end of the scale, I don't see a problem with that. An anti-war film can be effective in portraying the lure and thrill of combat and the despair and pain of the aftermath. At the end of the day, there is no way to make sure how audiences would interpret a certain work of art, in this case films. Once it is shown, it is out of the hands of the filmmaker.

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Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:55 am
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Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
I really like Full Metal Jacket (all of it, not just the first act) and think R. Lee Ermey is one of the reasons why it is so great.

but I remain uneasy that is it embraced by the sort of right-wingers (including Ermey himself) who you think would be put off by a movie that portrays military leadership and the theater of war in such a negative light. and a lot of the tributes to Ermey have reminded be of that feeling. maybe the simplest thing I can say that is that Truffaut continues to be right about anti-war movies. although I don't put the onus on Kubrick.


If you are uneasy with art being misinterpreted by either a segment or a majority of the audience, you should be worried about more than just anti-war films. I once wrote about my uneasiness regarding the black men talking 'jive' in Airplane, not because I believed the joke to be implicitly racist, but because the person I was watching it with (my brother) took the joke as such. He wasn't laughing along with the actual joke (the disconnect between how their dialect is interpreted by others, and the eloquence of the subtitles supplied beneath), but was instead simply laughing at the black people. It made me realize that, when I was a kid and first watched this movie, that might be part of what I had been laughing at to. And it made me uncomfortable.

I was also made uncomfortable while sitting in an audience setting a few years ago, watching the very same Full Metal Jacket, and having someone seated near me under the impression that the dehumanization of Pyle by Ermy was some kind of comedy gold. Every humiliation he suffered made him laugh uproariously and I was completely nauseated by him.

The reality is their are few movies out there that can't be grossly misinterpreted, whether they are light fare like Airplane or more serious work like Full Metal Jacket. It can't be avoided because a lot of people suck. Sometime we ourselves may even turn out to be that person that sucks. But what is ultimately more important is that artists pay people sucking no mind when they are trying to articulate something. The last thing we want is artists to back off because of their fear of misinterpretation, or to become embarrassingly overt in spoon feeding their message in hopes that everyone walks away 'getting' what they are saying. Does this allow art to potentially become dangerous in the wrong hands. Sure, to a degree. But it also will expose those people for who they are. And the hope is, if enough out there 'get it', the correct side will have all the ammunition they need to shoot down those that don't.


Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 am
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m'yeah. because truthfully I may have gone through a similar phase in high school in the way that I consumed Scorsese, Kubrick, Coppola, Tarantino, Leone, and so forth. just the love of that good ol' ultraviolence.

I can't say I didn't find R. Lee Ermey electrifying when I first saw FMJ, in spite of the character's fate. although now that I have seen Paths of Glory and Dr. Strangelove (and the characters played by Adolphe Menjou, George Macready, Sterling Hayden, and George C. Scott), it is easier to see what Kubrick is trying to say through that character. (although for real, the argument against that character should be easy to find in FMJ itself)


Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:14 am
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John Dumbear wrote:
We need a "I Love the '70s" group hug. :up:

Maybe we should have a thread...


Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:01 am
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crumbsroom wrote:

If you are uneasy with art being misinterpreted by either a segment or a majority of the audience, you should be worried about more than just anti-war films. I once wrote about my uneasiness regarding the black men talking 'jive' in Airplane, not because I believed the joke to be implicitly racist, but because the person I was watching it with (my brother) took the joke as such. He wasn't laughing along with the actual joke (the disconnect between how their dialect is interpreted by others, and the eloquence of the subtitles supplied beneath), but was instead simply laughing at the black people. It made me realize that, when I was a kid and first watched this movie, that might be part of what I had been laughing at to. And it made me uncomfortable.

I was also made uncomfortable while sitting in an audience setting a few years ago, watching the very same Full Metal Jacket, and having someone seated near me under the impression that the dehumanization of Pyle by Ermy was some kind of comedy gold. Every humiliation he suffered made him laugh uproariously and I was completely nauseated by him.

The reality is their are few movies out there that can't be grossly misinterpreted, whether they are light fare like Airplane or more serious work like Full Metal Jacket. It can't be avoided because a lot of people suck. Sometime we ourselves may even turn out to be that person that sucks. But what is ultimately more important is that artists pay people sucking no mind when they are trying to articulate something. The last thing we want is artists to back off because of their fear of misinterpretation, or to become embarrassingly overt in spoon feeding their message in hopes that everyone walks away 'getting' what they are saying. Does this allow art to potentially become dangerous in the wrong hands. Sure, to a degree. But it also will expose those people for who they are. And the hope is, if enough out there 'get it', the correct side will have all the ammunition they need to shoot down those that don't.


When I watched FMJ for the first time, I was 15 and the sheer volume and creativity of Sergeant Hartman's verbal debasement was comedy gold to me. I found it infinitely quotable and while clearly meant to chip away at the humanity of the soldiers, I, having been raised in a fairly right-wing household, took that just as "what happens" in the military. I didn't watch it with a particularly critical eye and there was a disconnect between what eventually happened to Pyle and the clear criticism and horror of the world with what the Gunny went through with the privates. I attributed the failures of Pyle more to the failures of his fellow soldiers rather than an extension of the machinations that Gunny represented and it allowed me to compartmentalize and guffaw at "I bet you could suck a golf ball through a garden hose!"

Then, I rewatched it in my early 20s after a few semesters of college with my then girlfriend/now wife. I attribute much of my greater sense of empathy to my relationship with her and seeing it with her, with her not laughing but expressing horror at the way they were treated by the Gunny, and how from the first scene these men are being broken down, I had to completely reassess my every reaction to the film.

I still think there are some lines in there that are hysterical but I think that is what makes them so nefarious. You're disarmed by it and even become complicit because of the entertainment value of it all. It's one of the most brilliant representations to the instrumentation of humans that Foucault outlines in Discipline and Punish that I've seen (though Elite Squad also does this admirably and substantially more overtly).

I agree completely with what you said because I was the person that sucks but I think it only led to greater appreciation of the film's potency and I think Kubrick fully understood the effect it would have in capturing that duality, given the film's explicit themes on that matter.


Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:27 am
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ThatDarnMKS wrote:
I still think there are some lines in there that are hysterical but I think that is what makes them so nefarious.


No question about this. I also believe that at times we are meant to be complicit in the shaming of Pyle. In the beginning of the films my feelings are generally 'for fuck's sake, get yourself together you slob'. But once it become clear what is happening in the second half of the boot camp scenes, there is something generally distressing about a middle aged adult howling with laughter every time Pyle's pathetic face is kicked into the dirt. This wasn't just someone who was missing the point of the movie. This was someone who himself was either a bully, or had always dreamed of being one.

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
I agree completely with what you said because I was the person that sucks but I think it only led to greater appreciation of the film's potency and I think Kubrick fully understood the effect it would have in capturing that duality, given the film's explicit themes on that matter.


I'm frequently a person that sucks. Most of us are at some time. I will probably continue to be in the future. But we can use films, and our reactions to them, as a way to gauge our progress. They sometimes are also substantially the means through which we achieve the progression.


Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:01 am
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crumbsroom wrote:
I once wrote about my uneasiness regarding the black men talking 'jive' in Airplane, not because I believed the joke to be implicitly racist, but because the person I was watching it with (my brother) took the joke as such. He wasn't laughing along with the actual joke (the disconnect between how their dialect is interpreted by others, and the eloquence of the subtitles supplied beneath), but was instead simply laughing at the black people. It made me realize that, when I was a kid and first watched this movie, that might be part of what I had been laughing at to. And it made me uncomfortable.

We should be able to admit, though, that "jive" is just funny anyway, and those idioms (almost entirely not actual black slang) are ridiculously absurd. I also know a bunch of black people who find the scenes hilarious for both reasons. I'm pretty sure if I ever met a white person who believed that this was the actual way black people talk, then, yeah, race-est.

crumbsroom wrote:
I was also made uncomfortable while sitting in an audience setting a few years ago, watching the very same Full Metal Jacket, and having someone seated near me under the impression that the dehumanization of Pyle by Ermy was some kind of comedy gold. Every humiliation he suffered made him laugh uproariously and I was completely nauseated by him.

I happen to believe both that Ermey's performance is comedy gold and that Kubrick is deliberately making us complicit by laughing at the routine. When I first saw the film, I remember feeling pity for Pyle around the time of the jelly donut, and had near-full sympathy with him by the soap-towel scene. Just the sound of him crying was painfully disturbing. I think that by the end of the first half, the dehumanization of the boot camp process should be fairly clear (after all, Pyle was successfully made into a killer), and that as electric as Ermey's performance was, he's still a shitbag whose business is cultivating shitbags. (And I've sometimes wondered if those who hate the second half of the film weren't able to see Ermey's proper context here.)

But I should say that I've also known those who are a little too preverse in their enjoyment of Ermey's shtick and fairly remorseless over Pyle's fate. One friend would replay the jelly donut scene so many times that it became like the Kids in the Hall joke about the guy obsessed with Deliverance for the wrong reason.

crumbsroom wrote:
But what is ultimately more important is that artists pay people sucking no mind when they are trying to articulate something. The last thing we want is artists to back off because of their fear of misinterpretation, or to become embarrassingly overt in spoon feeding their message in hopes that everyone walks away 'getting' what they are saying. Does this allow art to potentially become dangerous in the wrong hands. Sure, to a degree. But it also will expose those people for who they are. And the hope is, if enough out there 'get it', the correct side will have all the ammunition they need to shoot down those that don't.

Absolutely agree. It's fashionable to discard artist intent, but I still see it as, not the only but, a crucial context for framing an appreciation of an artwork. I'm not sure if I see misinterpretations as "dangerous" per se, at least not any more so than the gorge of other bad ideas floating around. Some people think Animal Farm is pro-communist, for example, or that Birth of a Nation isn't racist because that one good black dude (who recognizes his congential failings as a dark-hearted savage). Like you said, some people just have a need to suck or something.


Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:04 am
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I am also one who originally missed the dehumanization themes in Full Metal Jacket and found its 2nd half to be quite boring. When I first watched it, I found most of the lines Sgt. Hartman used to be hilarious. Even though I noticed a gradual change in Pvt, Pyle's behavior, I didn't make the dehumanization connection out of Pvt. Pyle's eventual outcome. After I saw the jelly donut scene, I made the conclusion that Sgt. Hartman was simply going too far in his outbursts towards Pvt. Pyle, and that was what led to the events at the end of the first half. However, after Janson pointed out the themes to me in a discussion a while back, I realized how wrong I was. I feel like a lot of people (mainly people about my age and younger) don't pick up on the dehumanization aspect as they find the insults so comedic that the fact that this movie may be really dark and disturbing doesn't occur to them.

Anyways, I still don't think the battle scenes in the 2nd half look impressive on a technical level, but I've come to realize that this doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things as they're clearly secondary to the thematic power.

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Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:27 am
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Popcorn Reviews wrote:
I am also one who originally missed the dehumanization themes in Full Metal Jacket and found its 2nd half to be quite boring. When I first watched it, I found most of the lines Sgt. Hartman used to be hilarious. Even though I noticed a gradual change in Pvt, Pyle's behavior, I didn't make the dehumanization connection out of Pvt. Pyle's eventual outcome. After I saw the jelly donut scene, I made the conclusion that Sgt. Hartman was simply going too far in his outbursts towards Pvt. Pyle, and that was what led to the events at the end of the first half. However, after Janson pointed out the themes to me in a discussion a while back, I realized how wrong I was. I feel like a lot of people (mainly people about my age and younger) don't pick up on the dehumanization aspect as they find the insults so comedic that the fact that this movie may be really dark and disturbing doesn't occur to them.

Anyways, I still don't think the battle scenes in the 2nd half look impressive on a technical level, but I've come to realize that this doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things as they're clearly secondary to the thematic power.



That's simply how the military works - especially 40 or 50 years ago when there were less provisions and rules to protect enlisted men. Part of the process is tearing men down - it starts with cutting their hair off, making them all essentially look identical. Drill sergeants are pretty much exactly like Hartmann - they seek out "weaknesses" in people, whether its big ears or a dumb expression on their face or simply being black, Asian, etc. They take something that identifies a man and points it out so cruelly and obviously that it no longer defines them.

As funny as Hartmann's lines are, I still recognized the de-humanization of Pyle. Especially after the late night beating the other privates deliver. It's a brutal, heart-breaking scene where Pyle is reduced to sobbing like a child. He was broken at that point but Hartmann didn't see it. When Pyle finally began to excel at something (tearing down and rebuilding his rifle) he thought Joker had finally gotten through to him. You could chalk it off to Hartmann simply being an asshole, but I rather think he was just too involved with performing his job well and being too focused on all the other recruits to recognize the one loose screw that was about to fall out. In today's Marines I would think that the warning signs would be more prevalent.


As much as I hear people complain about the second half of the movie, it does portray how shit can fall apart so quickly in war and how men loose themselves as a result. All it took was one sniper to change Joker's life by killing one of his best friends.

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Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:55 am
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Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
I really like Full Metal Jacket (all of it, not just the first act) and think R. Lee Ermey is one of the reasons why it is so great.

but I remain uneasy that is it embraced by the sort of right-wingers (including Ermey himself) who you think would be put off by a movie that portrays military leadership and the theater of war in such a negative light. and a lot of the tributes to Ermey have reminded be of that feeling. maybe the simplest thing I can say that is that Truffaut continues to be right about anti-war movies. although I don't put the onus on Kubrick.


I guess in some ways it's sort of like the one thing some people got from Fight Club was beating up other people.

For the record, I think my interest tailed after the first section. A good deal of that came from Ermey's mesmerizing performance.

And yes, I'll agree with most everything said by DP on the military. A lot of truth there.


Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:07 am
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Death Proof wrote:
As much as I hear people complain about the second half of the movie, it does portray how shit can fall apart so quickly in war and how men loose themselves as a result. All it took was one sniper to change Joker's life by killing one of his best friends.

I agree with that. Another thing I liked about the sniper scene was the fact that the most deadly enemy Joker encountered in Vietnam was a woman: Something which was a side effect of Joker's dehumanization as Hartman feminized their guns in the boot camp. Since Joker
put her out of her misery
, I feels like this shows that he got over the psychological damage which Hartman caused to him.

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Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:08 am
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Jinnistan wrote:
a little too preverse

I'm just going to go ahead and chalk this up as an unconscious Strangelove slip.


Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:24 am
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Top 10 80s albums in the order I see them Googling and a definitive 1

10. Roxy Music: Avalon
9. The Smiths: The Smiths
8. Tom Waits: Swordfishtrombones
7. The Police: Synchronicity
6. Peter Gabriel: So
5. Paul Simon: Graceland
4. Talking Heads: Remain in Light
3. The Clash: London Calling
2. Joy Division: Closer
1. Dinosaur Jr: You're Living All Over Me


Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:36 am
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The Nameless One wrote:
Top 10 80s albums in the order I see them Googling and a definitive 1

10. Roxy Music: Avalon
9. The Smiths: The Smiths
8. Tom Waits: Swordfishtrombones
7. The Police: Synchronicity
6. Peter Gabriel: So
5. Paul Simon: Graceland
4. Talking Heads: Remain in Light
3. The Clash: London Calling
2. Joy Division: Closer
1. Dinosaur Jr: You're Living All Over Me


A lot of nice albums there, if not for the worst Police album ever.

I'm also not much for Peter Gabriel, but I'll let that slide because I actually have never bothered to listen to that particular record.


Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:49 am
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The Nameless One wrote:
Top 10 80s albums in the order I see them Googling and a definitive 1

10. Roxy Music: Avalon
9. The Smiths: The Smiths
8. Tom Waits: Swordfishtrombones
7. The Police: Synchronicity
6. Peter Gabriel: So
5. Paul Simon: Graceland
4. Talking Heads: Remain in Light
3. The Clash: London Calling
2. Joy Division: Closer
1. Dinosaur Jr: You're Living All Over Me


No Replacements. For shame.


Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:04 pm
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Synchronicity I and II are great songs, but the rest on that album make me wince. My dad always sang it as "Wrapped Around your Weiner." Zenyatta Mondata should take its place.

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Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:06 pm
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The Nameless One wrote:
1. Dinosaur Jr: You're Living All Over Me

Definitely the best guitar album of the decade (move over, Daydream Nation), and the first definitive look inside Lou Barlow's skull:



Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:06 pm
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I don't know why people don't like Synchronicity. I played the hell out of it. I guess they don't like it because radio played the hell out it and they don't want to spoil their indie cred.


Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:14 pm
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Torgo wrote:
Zenyatta Mondata should take its place.


In honesty, I would have mentioned this as being a worse album if I had been able to remember what it was called. I tried and it didn't work out. Of course I could have looked that up, but that just wouldn't be me.

As for Synchronicity, it's not like I hate it. I like the Synchronicity track that was the single. I like both the songs that Copeland and Summers wrote for it. I also really like Every Breath You Take. A lot. The rest of the album though is death to me.


Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:15 pm
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Ghosts in the Machine deserves some love.

I'd pick Rain Dogs, personally, as my Waits choice.

Gotta have some R.E.M. on there.

Fucking Smiths....


Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:22 pm
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My top ten well worn cassettes from the 80s:

1. Purple Rain
2. 1984
3. Kick
4. Paul's Boutique
5. Introducing the Hardline According to Terence Trent D'Arby
6. You're Living All Over Me
7. Doolittle
8. Weird Al Yankovic in 3D
9. Ride The Lighting
10. Heartbeat City/Seven and the Ragged Tiger


Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:28 pm
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Fuck, I forgot the Eurythmics. It was a long decade, folks.

And I had Thriller on vinyl, if anyone was wondering.


Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:29 pm
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crumbsroom wrote:
A lot of nice albums there, if not for the worst Police album ever.

I'm also not much for Peter Gabriel, but I'll let that slide because I actually have never bothered to listen to that particular record.
I think I like that Police album for the title songs. They were really fun to play in Rockband :shifty:


Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:50 pm
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Shit, yeah, Paul's Boutique. Also, I struggle with 80s R.E.M vs 90s


Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:51 pm
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