The Television Thread

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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:38 pm

Wooley wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:26 pm
Man, what the hell happened to Rick and Morty?
Which one you saw? The dragon episode was pretty bad, but I thought the next one (Rattlestar Ricklactica) was a nice return to form.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Wooley » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:14 pm

Thief wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:38 pm
Which one you saw? The dragon episode was pretty bad, but I thought the next one (Rattlestar Ricklactica) was a nice return to form.
Haven't seen that last one, after the dragon one I kinda gave up, at least for a bit.
I thought Edge Of Tomorty was a little weaker than expected, especially for a Season Opener, then the one about pooping and the app also felt, just, off... The heist one is pretty up and down but ends pretty badly, I might have said that other than the episodes dedicated to inter-dimensional television shows, it was the worst ep of the entire show, but then the dragon one happened. Damn, I hope they can right the ship, this is depressing. It was such a brilliant show.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:30 pm

I thought the opener was ok, and I liked the heist one quite a bit. But again, I thought they ended in a pretty high note with the last one. If anything, I feel they are being more "careless" (?) with the stories? Like, they just don't give a fuck and are throwing everything but the kitchen sink most of the time to see what sticks.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Bandy Greensacks » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:03 am

Emmy magazine, however, reported after an interview with Harmon that the writing team planned "to shake things up with a more anarchic writing style." This meant a rather deconstructive approach, where instead of focusing on story structure, attention would be given primarily to cultivating ideas, jokes, and pieces of dialogue, and then the stories would be built around those moments.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by undinum » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:21 am

motherfuckers still tryna top hellzapoppin

don't know there ain't no hellzatoppin
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:11 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:03 pm
And I made it clear that I don’t have to defend the movie against nebulous claims of misunderstanding when you can’t provide any specifics, and what you did I already rebuked.
So instead of having a conversation we're just going to do this stupid standoff? Okay, you don't understand shit about Watchmen or you'd at least be able to articulate one thing so I actually have some substance to work with here*. I'm not the one with a contentious position, learn your place

*Like, you understand that I'm going to be putting work into this response, correct? This means re-reading Watchmen, re-watching the ultimate Snyder cut (which I desperately do not want to do), and actually putting my brain on it. I'm not going to do shit unless you are willing to participate in the discourse. To me, it resoundingly screams that you have nothing
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:58 pm

The problem is that this is not a small issue we're breaking down here, there is far too much to be able to rattle off specifics without first refreshing my mind - something as delicate as Watchmen requires a scalpel, not a butter knife. The crux of the argument is this, you can't alter the squid. The text all leads to the squid, for one, you can't have The Tales of the Black Freighter without the Squid, the artist of that comic is one of the counsel who "imagined" the squid into reality. By removing the squid you render a great deal of the story's subtext as useless, and when it comes to the climax, it resembles a kid throwing punches in the air trying to connect a blow as you hold their head back. The horror must be Lovecraftian, otherworldly, beyond human comprehension... this neutered film version reduces it to something within our understanding. It completely ruins what Ozymandias's plan means. Will elaborate further but, for God's sake, give me something here
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Torgo » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:44 pm

None of us understand. Nameless isn't locked in this forum with us. We're locked in this forum with Nameless.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:58 pm

Bandy Greensacks wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:03 am
Yeah, I remember reading that quote before the season started, and they seem to be sticking to that premise.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:09 pm

lol, the doomsday clock is trending on twitter. 100 seconds to midnight, everyone!
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:15 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:58 pm
The problem is that this is not a small issue we're breaking down here, there is far too much to be able to rattle off specifics without first refreshing my mind - something as delicate as Watchmen requires a scalpel, not a butter knife. The crux of the argument is this, you can't alter the squid. The text all leads to the squid, for one, you can't have The Tales of the Black Freighter without the Squid, the artist of that comic is one of the counsel who "imagined" the squid into reality. By removing the squid you render a great deal of the story's subtext as useless, and when it comes to the climax, it resembles a kid throwing punches in the air trying to connect a blow as you hold their head back. The horror must be Lovecraftian, otherworldly, beyond human comprehension... this neutered film version reduces it to something within our understanding. It completely ruins what Ozymandias's plan means. Will elaborate further but, for God's sake, give me something here
Why can’t you alter the squid? While the punchline is diminished in doing so, the meaning behind it and Ozymandias’ plan are not altered. It’s still a unifying comic book threat used to control and manipulate the population. It maintains Rorschach’s utilitarian hypocrisy by placing it on a macro-scale. Ozy’s hubris and the importance of his name (which is an allusion with the subtlety of a fucking sledgehammer and feels like a joke in and of itself) is still present.

It’s a cosmetic change that loses the Starro allusion and a deeper metatextual element, but the core themes of hubris, manipulation, corrupting of power and the illusion of heroism and villainy remain intact.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Wooley » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:52 am

Thief wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:38 pm
Which one you saw? The dragon episode was pretty bad, but I thought the next one (Rattlestar Ricklactica) was a nice return to form.
Wow, I gotta admit Rattlestar Ricklactica was absolutely a return to form, that was an excellent episode, definitely up to the higher standard.
I not only laughed a good bit, but as I do with the better R&M episodes, I had an outside moment marveling at the depth of it.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Bandy Greensacks » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:29 am

Thief wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:58 pm
Yeah, I remember reading that quote before the season started, and they seem to be sticking to that premise.
They absolutely did stick to that idea, and it made the show feel like Family Guy in the worst possible way.

It's hard to believe that, a few years ago, I was debating whether Bojack Horseman or Rick and Morty was the better show. Pretty damn clear now, at this point.

I don't know who's seen it, but I'd even give HarmonQuest the edge over Rick and Morty's last few seasons. I've enjoyed that a lot more.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:17 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:15 pm
It’s a cosmetic change that loses the Starro allusion and a deeper metatextual element, but the core themes of hubris, manipulation, corrupting of power and the illusion of heroism and villainy remain intact.
The problem here is you are reductive. It's as if Snyder's climax is a scarecrow compared to Watchmen's flesh and blood, you shrug off the "deeper metatextual element" as if it doesn't contain the very soul of his work. Great, we've established that Snyder is capable of understanding text.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by DaMU » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:34 pm

The show peaked with "Pickle Rick."
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Torgo » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:20 pm

I'm not jumping ship on Rick and Morty yet. I have a feeling that
whatever horrible things that were in the talking cat's head in the dragon episode
will pay off later in the season.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Patrick McGroin » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:10 pm

I'm not saying that Rick and Morty is the greatest animated show of all time. It may( or may not) have slowed down a bit this season. But comparing it to Bojack Horseman? That's just nucking futs.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:11 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:17 pm
The problem here is you are reductive. It's as if Snyder's climax is a scarecrow compared to Watchmen's flesh and blood, you shrug off the "deeper metatextual element" as if it doesn't contain the very soul of his work. Great, we've established that Snyder is capable of understanding text.
The soul of this work is Moore demystifying and subverting the super hero genre while telling a super hero story by delving into the psychology and power dynamics of superheroism. That is all almost completely intact. This shows an understanding of both text and subtext on Snyder's part as one who didn't understand them would have altered and cut materials that changes the psychology and power dynamics. He did not.

Cutting the squid and BF (at least from non Ultimate Cuts) doesn't change these. It does lessen the metatextual critique to a small degree but the majority that's lost is a sense of irony. This is why the Graphic Novel is superior but in regards to the nature of adaptation, it's an understandable one. If I had to choose BF or Dr. Manhattan’s determinist experience of existence, I would choose the latter every time.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:15 pm

Ugh
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:15 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:11 pm
The soul of this work is Moore demystifying and subverting the super hero genre while telling a super hero story by delving into the psychology and power dynamics of superheroism.
That's not the soul! THAT'S THE TEXT

This is the break off point where I have to, omg, buy the comic again and, omfg, watch the stupid movie again
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:26 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:15 pm
That's not the soul! THAT'S THE TEXT

This is the break off point where I have to, omg, buy the comic again and, omfg, watch the stupid movie again
What is the "soul?" Subtext is indelibly linked to "the text." For instance, the aforementioned attack on utilitarianism. The concept is never brought up in the comic or film but is a defining ethos of both Rorschach and Ozy. By taking it to such an extreme, Moore highlights the inherent villainy of it despite the heroic goals and underpins that men who desire the power to make such decisions are inherently doomed by their own hubris.

How is that argument and debunking of superheroism not both "the soul" and the text?
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by crumbsroom » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:49 am

I don't mind Snyder's "Watchmen" and I could care less how faithful it is to the original text but, yeah, it's a soulless thing.

Is soul a wishy washy term that's easy to use as a dodge to an analytical argument? Yup. But it's also what guides every feeling I've ever had towards every film I've ever watched.

Watchmen 6/10
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:56 am

crumbsroom wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:49 am
I don't mind Snyder's "Watchmen" and I could care less how faithful it is to the original text but, yeah, it's a soulless thing.

Is soul a wishy washy term that's easy to use as a dodge to an analytical argument? Yup. But it's also what guides every feeling I've ever had towards every film I've ever watched.

Watchmen 6/10
I got soul but I’m not a soldier.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by crumbsroom » Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:12 am

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:56 am
I got soul but I’m not a soldier.
The Killers don't have soul.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by undinum » Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:40 am

crumbsroom wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:49 am
Is soul a wishy washy term that's easy to use as a dodge to an analytical argument? Yup. But it's also what guides every feeling I've ever had towards every film I've ever watched.

What would you call citing a particular film's Tomatometer score as evidence that said film is less nuanced than another?
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:48 am

crumbsroom wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:12 am
The Killers don't have soul.
What about Southland Tales?
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by crumbsroom » Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:51 am

undinum wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:40 am
What would you call citing a particular film's Tomatometer score as evidence that said film is less nuanced than another?
Id hope that Tomatometer and evidence are understood as universally incompatible terms.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by crumbsroom » Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:52 am

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:48 am
What about Southland Tales?
I hate Southland Tales but I wouldn't call it soulless. It's got one hibernating in there somewhere
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:01 pm

undinum wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:40 am
What would you call citing a particular film's Tomatometer score as evidence that said film is less nuanced than another?
You are a nonce. Consensus is important, the critiques within that consensus are important, the average score of said critiques are important. Why the fuck are you even chiming in? You have nothing to add to the conversation at hand so fuck right off, go syphon water out of your basement you fluffy overprivileged jar of mayo
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:21 pm

I have a hard time considering the superhero aspect Watchmen to be the "soul". For one, superheroes don't exist so how is the dissection and critique of super heroism supposed to resonate with me? You are still relying on the window dressing, the pie crust of the matter where I'm looking for what's beyond the window, what fills the pie. The commentary on super heroism is the text

I want for you to quit providing me with the cliff notes breakdown of Watchmen and to start digging in the dirt
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:05 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:51 am
Id hope that Tomatometer and evidence are understood as universally incompatible terms.
yet you gave watchmen the same average review score. Awesome. You people, I swear to the gods
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by crumbsroom » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:52 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:05 pm
yet you gave watchmen the same average review score. Awesome. You people, I swear to the gods
So I guess this is your... evidence?

So if I had given a lower or higher score it would have crushed your claim?

Not that I have any idea what your initial claim was, but it doesn't sound promising.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:05 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:52 pm
So I guess this is your... evidence?
It's more than sufficient in this instance. The math doesn't lie, if you feel otherwise you are being a dumbass
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Patrick McGroin » Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:45 pm

Torgo wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:57 pm
I'm more excited about Comedy Central's Awkafina is Nora from Queens, personally. I've been a fan of hers since seeing her in Crazy Rich Asians. I haven't seen The Farewell yet.
Hopefully, the series will be on par with Broad City.
Watched the pilot last night and even though it's not in the same neighborhood (borough?) as Broad City it still showed moments of promise. This being the premiere and all it should be no surprise that Awkwafina is finding her footing. But once she settles in and gets comfortable I think she'll be fine. The supporting characters aren't very strong though. The grandmother's a bit of a caricature and her dad (B.D. Wong) wasn't given much to do. I'll have to watch a handful more episodes to get a better idea.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Torgo » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:06 pm

B.D. Wong plays the dad? Sold!
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by crumbsroom » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:19 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:05 pm
It's more than sufficient in this instance. The math doesn't lie, if you feel otherwise you are being a dumbass
,

So a Tomatometer rating can be a legitimate barometer of the worth of an artists work? That's of course nonsense. It's not an irrelevant number. It means...something. But there is absolutely nothing final about it. Just considering how many third rate critics get to put their thumb on this scale alone makes it a dubious metric. So does how often difficult, uncompromising or controversial films are almost always saddled with wildly mixed reviews. This basically leaves them forever in the purgatory of 40 to 70 percent Tomatometers. What does that say about them?

Vertigo, upon it's initial release, had a mixed reception. It was also a box office dud. It may have ended up with a 64 percent rating as well. Time brings about re-evaluation. Who knows what might be found in Snyder's filmography down the road? I'm not holding my breath, I think he is a completely shit director, but neither my opinion on this, nor the Tomatometer, has any authority in this matter. It is not the great hammer of justice you think it operates as in an actual debate on merits in art.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:47 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:21 pm
I have a hard time considering the superhero aspect Watchmen to be the "soul". For one, superheroes don't exist so how is the dissection and critique of super heroism supposed to resonate with me? You are still relying on the window dressing, the pie crust of the matter where I'm looking for what's beyond the window, what fills the pie. The commentary on super heroism is the text

I want for you to quit providing me with the cliff notes breakdown of Watchmen and to start digging in the dirt
Utilitarianism, determinism, hubris and power are all philosophical or human concepts that it uses superheroes to explore, while maintaining the metatextial critique of the genre, which is a genre you are likely submersed in whether you like it or not.

You're once again relying on claims of content, depth and critique while saying nothing substantive about them.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Ergill » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:52 pm

I prefer the comic ending and think it's got more heft and depth to it, but I understand why they changed it for the movie. Vote for me.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Ergill » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:53 pm

Vertigo, however, has no interdimensional squids and is therefore total fucking bullshit. Just a trash movie.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:03 pm

Ergill wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:52 pm
I prefer the comic ending and think it's got more heft and depth to it, but I understand why they changed it for the movie. Vote for me.
This is more or less where I stand. Like MKS said, it diminishes the punchline, but leaving it would've meant adding the whole island subplot, which they pretty much nixed from the film. BUt the thing is that the film is ultimately so cold and emotionless that by the last act I really didn't care much for the change. To be honest, I had more issues with the unnecessary fetishizing of violence and the overall changes to how Rorschach operates than I had with the ending.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:10 pm

Ergill wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:52 pm
I prefer the comic ending and think it's got more heft and depth to it, but I understand why they changed it for the movie. Vote for me.
Ergil, we had an extremely fruitful discussion on this topic nearly a decade ago at this point. Can you surmise what "soul" I'm missing? Is there some subtext so glaringly obvious that both Snyder and myself are utter dolts for not understanding?
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by undinum » Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:11 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:19 pm
,

So a Tomatometer rating can be a legitimate barometer of the worth of an artists work? That's of course nonsense. It's not an irrelevant number. It means...something. But there is absolutely nothing final about it. Just considering how many third rate critics get to put their thumb on this scale alone makes it a dubious metric. So does how often difficult, uncompromising or controversial films are almost always saddled with wildly mixed reviews. This basically leaves them forever in the purgatory of 40 to 70 percent Tomatometers. What does that say about them?

Vertigo, upon it's initial release, had a mixed reception. It was also a box office dud. It may have ended up with a 64 percent rating as well. Time brings about re-evaluation. Who knows what might be found in Snyder's filmography down the road? I'm not holding my breath, I think he is a completely shit director, but neither my opinion on this, nor the Tomatometer, has any authority in this matter. It is not the great hammer of justice you think it operates as in an actual debate on merits in art.
You are being far too kind. He has zero understanding of his own position. It might make a certain kind of vaguely understandable nonsense if the Tomatometer actually measured the average score each critic gave a film, but it measures the percentage of critics who gave it what RT deem a "positive" review. How 64% of critics calling it anything from recommendable to masterpiece translates into it being a "6/10 movie" is anybody's guess.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Slentert » Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:11 pm

This is probably silly but
I don't really buy the movie's ending because Dr. Manhattan is worldwide established as an American symbol/hero. I don't believe the Soviet Union would consider him as a common enemy like they would with the interdimensional squid, it would only enhance their hatred for the US I think.
I haven't read the comic book since I was 13, so I can't really comment on that.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:25 pm

Torgo wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:06 pm
B.D. Wong plays the dad? Sold!
You and I . . . we think very much alike.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by undinum » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:05 pm

undinum wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:11 pm
You are being far too kind. He has zero understanding of his own position. It might make a certain kind of vaguely understandable nonsense if the Tomatometer actually measured the average score each critic gave a film, but it measures the percentage of critics who gave it what RT deem a "positive" review. How 64% of critics calling it anything from recommendable to masterpiece translates into it being a "6/10 movie" is anybody's guess.
Judging from The Nameless One's apparent thinking ability, it probably also needs to be emphasized that if RT still lists the "average score" given (I haven't been there in years), then that's an even more worthless gauge, especially for reviews without a numerical score. The only thing dumber than quantifying aesthetic appreciation is quantifying a piece of aesthetic appreciation whose author didn't see fit to quantify it themselves. (I say this as someone who scores everything he watches)
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by DaMU » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:13 pm

undinum wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:11 pm
You are being far too kind. He has zero understanding of his own position. It might make a certain kind of vaguely understandable nonsense if the Tomatometer actually measured the average score each critic gave a film, but it measures the percentage of critics who gave it what RT deem a "positive" review. How 64% of critics calling it anything from recommendable to masterpiece translates into it being a "6/10 movie" is anybody's guess.
There can sometimes be a meaningful split between the Tomatometer and the Average Critics Score (Spider-Man: Homecoming has 92% T-meter but with 7.7 out of 10 average). But the RT critics' average rating for Watchmen was 6.35 out of 10, so he's not telling tales out of school.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by undinum » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:14 pm

See my next post
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by DaMU » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:15 pm

Not to say any party's argument is harmed or hurt by this (Nameless being right about this detail doesn't mean the surrounding argumentation is sound), it's just interesting how 1:1 Watchmen's T-meter and average score match.
NOTE:
The above-written is wholly and solely the perspective of DaMU and should not be taken as an effort to rile, malign, or diminish you, dummo.
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The Nameless One
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:36 pm

Woof, not reading any of this critic math nonsense. Imagine being so bored that you have this conversation.
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The Nameless One
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:40 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:47 pm
You're once again relying on claims of content, depth and critique while saying nothing substantive about them.
That's because I have to go back and buy and read the graphic novel and watch the movie! Ugh, it's not as if you aren't doing the exact same thing
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