The Television Thread

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The Nameless One
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:42 pm

Who even is this Udimuijmsjnshjn fuck and why is he @ing me? I haven't interacted with dude once in my life and he's trying to stir shit. Quit being a fuck boy
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:46 pm

undinum wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:11 pm
You are being far too kind. He has zero understanding of his own position. It might make a certain kind of vaguely understandable nonsense if the Tomatometer actually measured the average score each critic gave a film, but it measures the percentage of critics who gave it what RT deem a "positive" review. How 64% of critics calling it anything from recommendable to masterpiece translates into it being a "6/10 movie" is anybody's guess.
What? Hahahaha, do you honestly not know about RT's average score function? Go fuck yourself
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:49 pm

Pro tip, you click on the movie you want information about, click the "More Info" tab underneath the tomato score, and boom, you get the average critique scores! Actually go fuck yourself
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:06 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:40 pm
That's because I have to go back and buy and read the graphic novel and watch the movie! Ugh, it's not as if you aren't doing the exact same thing
I have given specific instances that the film discusses specific themes and concepts and how they remain intact in Snyder’s film.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:07 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:06 pm
I have given specific instances that the film discusses specific themes and concepts and how they remain intact in Snyder’s film.
We'll get to that when I'm done content consuming, my stance is you are being reductive with it when there is, well, so much more to it than you suggest
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:12 pm

Fuck it, I'm treating myself and getting the absolute edition of Watchmen for 112 cdn. Won't be here until Feb 26 so that's this conversation for the time being
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:39 am

The Nameless One wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:07 pm
We'll get to that when I'm done content consuming, my stance is you are being reductive with it when there is, well, so much more to it than you suggest
I'm not saying that Watchmen doesn't have a lot of depth. I'm saying that I don't see any evidence that Snyder doesn't understand that depth and more so that he was forced to prune the film but made understandable choices that maintained the integrity of the source's subtext if not the complete depth.

Enjoy the reread. Watch the DC for your rewatch.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by crumbsroom » Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:03 am

I never got to finish my reading of Watchmen. Bedbugs carried my copy away.

What I read was very good. But it didn't blow me away or anything. But I'm not great with graphic novels, generally. I've only really loved a handful.

Louis Riel by Chester Brown anyone? Some Canadian history to enthrall the masses!?!
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:26 am

Ergill wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:52 pm
Vote for me.
"And there is so little time..."
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:46 am

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:39 am
I'm not saying that Watchmen doesn't have a lot of depth. I'm saying that I don't see any evidence that Snyder doesn't understand that depth and more so that he was forced to prune the film but made understandable choices that maintained the integrity of the source's subtext if not the complete depth.

Enjoy the reread. Watch the DC for your rewatch.
That's reasonable, sorry for being abrasive, when it comes to Alan Moore I get touchy. Dude's my religion. If anything I'm just interested in hearing what you have to plumb out of the material as ultimately this whole stuff about subtext and such is subjective. The comic means different things to different people, and I think that's where my argument lies in regards to adaptation. Watchmen means a specific thing to Zach Snyder and his subjectivity shines through. It's not the objective Watchmen, it's like when a language gets translated - elements get lost in the translation. Snyder "heightening" the violence is one aspect of this, it's not necessarily a negative but it detracts from the comic's overall focus. I feel like he made a very honest attempt, but I'm still going to comb through both works and cement this thesis because dammit I'm caught in a tangent. I'll be sure to keep it civil, passionate, and as informative as my primate brain is capable of managing
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by DaMU » Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:40 am

The problem is there's too much Watchmen discourse and not enough From Hell discourse.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:08 pm

DaMU wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:40 am
The problem is there's too much Watchmen discourse and not enough From Hell discourse.
Have you read The Courtyard, Neonomicon, or Providence? I've read The Courtyard and it's a deliciously lean foray into Lovecraftian horror
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Torgo » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:18 pm

Takoma1 wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:25 pm
You and I . . . we think very much alike.
I've really only seen him in Oz, but I'm a fan.

As for Nora from Queens, making it about an Uber-driving Millennial with no direction in life would seem tired three years ago, but Awkafina, her Dad and grandma are damn funny, so I'm mostly sold.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Ergill » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:22 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:10 pm
Ergil, we had an extremely fruitful discussion on this topic nearly a decade ago at this point. Can you surmise what "soul" I'm missing? Is there some subtext so glaringly obvious that both Snyder and myself are utter dolts for not understanding?
I'll try and call up what I can remember of my own arguments at least. Have to step out at the moment tho.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by DaMU » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:58 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:08 pm
Have you read The Courtyard, Neonomicon, or Providence? I've read The Courtyard and it's a deliciously lean foray into Lovecraftian horror
No, my familiarity is Swamp Thing, Watchmen, From Hell, and some issues of League and Promethea. Saw a couple pages of Providence, and it looked promising.

Will look into the others. :up:
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Ergill » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:05 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:10 pm
Ergil, we had an extremely fruitful discussion on this topic nearly a decade ago at this point. Can you surmise what "soul" I'm missing? Is there some subtext so glaringly obvious that both Snyder and myself are utter dolts for not understanding?
From what I can vaguely recall of whatever the hell I said then and of what I can convince myself I feel right now, this is my take.

While I think Snyder's choice makes sense for the medium he's working in (he's got less time to thread all this stuff out), I'd still toss the ending in the list of things that make me love the comic and feel so-so on the movie. I'll give it that it's the best Moore adaptation out there, but it's still never wholly won me over.

Interdimensional squids are just fucking great and wonderfully bonkers. Period. It's the Rubicon for the two sensibilities clashing throughout the comic. You've got the grave on the one hand (a serious, carefully wrought commentary on nuclear annihilation) and you've got the vulgar on the other (splashy, lurid pop-culture, an alleged diversion), and they meet at the point of dreadful absurdity. (Literally grave and literally a diversion.) Between film and comic, you've got the gravity of the event either way, since we're talking about mass murder, and we've at least gotten to know a handful of the people affected on a more intimate level. But the movie really loses the touch of the Lovecraftian insanity, that unbalanced sense of not knowing what exactly to feel. The WHATTHEFUCKISM.

In the movie we're supposed to assume that the arch-absurdist Comedian was pushed over the edge into a breakdown simply by the scale of the violence. The old saying of one death being a tragedy and a million being a statistic doesn't end up applying to him. It's reversed. A million is the breaking point. In the comic though, there really is something supremely absurd about the plot he's uncovered. It vibrates between the tragic and the comic in a way that I can see leading to the Comedian collapsing in weeping laughter. There always seemed to be a thread throughout the book that was playing on our assumptions of what's appropriately understood as serious and what not, and how comics (in their very name) are swept into the latter, and how Moore wants to make a mess of that. I think this makes a good mess of it basically, where the movie is more focused on the operatic tragedy of it all. Yes, they share the utilitarian v. deontology debate and such, but the movie loses that.

Throw into the mess what Moore's doing on a formal and narrative level. Throughout the whole book he's woven in a comic-within-the-comic of the Black Freighter, a pirate series with a titular nod to the fourth-wall-breaking Bert Brecht. The wall breaks down catastrophically with a sea-story splashing into sci-fi, comic into life, fiction into reality. Genres slip and categories crumble. (Reagan quipped that he wished aliens would invade to unify our species. Well, there you go.) That kind of self-referential weight and the pull-out-your-yarn-thumbtacks connectionism of the comic gets weakened by choices like this. I know Synder includes BF in the DC, but that turns much more of a sideshow. It's still a parable, but it doesn't end up yarning itself into the story in the batty and brilliant way that makes Moore, Moore.

I'm fine calling that a soul.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Ergill » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:07 pm

DaMU wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:40 am
The problem is there's too much Watchmen discourse and not enough From Hell discourse.
I've only read Watchmen, League, and From Hell. From Hell's my favorite. Yikes. The movie is an utter shitshow.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:30 am

Ergill wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:05 pm
From what I can vaguely recall of whatever the hell I said then and of what I can convince myself I feel right now, this is my take.

While I think Snyder's choice makes sense for the medium he's working in (he's got less time to thread all this stuff out), I'd still toss the ending in the list of things that make me love the comic and feel so-so on the movie. I'll give it that it's the best Moore adaptation out there, but it's still never wholly won me over.

Interdimensional squids are just fucking great and wonderfully bonkers. Period. It's the Rubicon for the two sensibilities clashing throughout the comic. You've got the grave on the one hand (a serious, carefully wrought commentary on nuclear annihilation) and you've got the vulgar on the other (splashy, lurid pop-culture, an alleged diversion), and they meet at the point of dreadful absurdity. (Literally grave and literally a diversion.) Between film and comic, you've got the gravity of the event either way, since we're talking about mass murder, and we've at least gotten to know a handful of the people affected on a more intimate level. But the movie really loses the touch of the Lovecraftian insanity, that unbalanced sense of not knowing what exactly to feel. The WHATTHEFUCKISM.

In the movie we're supposed to assume that the arch-absurdist Comedian was pushed over the edge into a breakdown simply by the scale of the violence. The old saying of one death being a tragedy and a million being a statistic doesn't end up applying to him. It's reversed. A million is the breaking point. In the comic though, there really is something supremely absurd about the plot he's uncovered. It vibrates between the tragic and the comic in a way that I can see leading to the Comedian collapsing in weeping laughter. There always seemed to be a thread throughout the book that was playing on our assumptions of what's appropriately understood as serious and what not, and how comics (in their very name) are swept into the latter, and how Moore wants to make a mess of that. I think this makes a good mess of it basically, where the movie is more focused on the operatic tragedy of it all. Yes, they share the utilitarian v. deontology debate and such, but the movie loses that.

Throw into the mess what Moore's doing on a formal and narrative level. Throughout the whole book he's woven in a comic-within-the-comic of the Black Freighter, a pirate series with a titular nod to the fourth-wall-breaking Bert Brecht. The wall breaks down catastrophically with a sea-story splashing into sci-fi, comic into life, fiction into reality. Genres slip and categories crumble. (Reagan quipped that he wished aliens would invade to unify our species. Well, there you go.) That kind of self-referential weight and the pull-out-your-yarn-thumbtacks connectionism of the comic gets weakened by choices like this. I know Synder includes BF in the DC, but that turns much more of a sideshow. It's still a parable, but it doesn't end up yarning itself into the story in the batty and brilliant way that makes Moore, Moore.

I'm fine calling that a soul.
Excellent write up, Ergill. I’ll take some time to digest it and I do think the “WHATTHEFUCKISM” of the squid captures what those splash pages perfectly evokes and what is most missed in the film adaptation.

I do wonder if the absurdity of Dr. Manhattan himself does carry much of that element, albeit to a far more mild degree. He embodies that clash between the grave and vulgar, given that he is a naked, super powered blue man. It brings me back to my “Snyder’s Watchmen is less but still of the same thematic content/soul.”

Do you think this is evidence that Snyder didn’t “get” Watchmen or its “soul” though? Given your initial comment, I feel like you’d agree that is more a degree of triage than pigheadedness.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Ergill » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:47 am

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:30 am
Excellent write up, Ergill. I’ll take some time to digest it and I do think the “WHATTHEFUCKISM” of the squid captures what those splash pages perfectly evokes and what is most missed in the film adaptation.
Thanks.
ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:30 am
I do wonder if the absurdity of Dr. Manhattan himself does carry much of that element, albeit to a far more mild degree. He embodies that clash between the grave and vulgar, given that he is a naked, super powered blue man. It brings me back to my “Snyder’s Watchmen is less but still of the same thematic content/soul.”
Fair enough, but I think we've got kind of used to him by that point. "Oh, floaty blue man! Yes, yes, very nice."
ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:30 am
Do you think this is evidence that Snyder didn’t “get” Watchmen or its “soul” though? Given your initial comment, I feel like you’d agree that is more a degree of triage than pigheadedness.
I don't know how much of necessity drove his choice as opposed to him not getting it. He is a big little boy (let me be snooty about guys who stan Ayn Rand), but he's talented, and I think he gets a lot of what makes Watchmen tick. He probably doesn't get all the potential I think there is in the material. I think how he handles the ending loses a lot of the bleakly comic notes of the original, and I don't know how much of it is him not having a feel for what Moore was doing, just disagreeing with it, or whatever. I obviously trust Moore's intuition more.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by DaMU » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:06 am

Rewatching Monty Python before bed lately, after Terry Jones' passing, and while obviously not everything holds up, this exchange from the "Spam" episode made me pause to get the laughs out.

(armless Cleese in soldier gear stands up)
- I'm a goner, Major, leave me-- I'm... I'm not a complete man anymore.
- You've lost both your arms as well.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:12 pm

Re: Watchmen, I'm also willing to cut some proverbial slack to Snyder who, at this point in his career, might not have had enough pull to demand certain things for his adaptation. Given the breadth of the source material, it was expected for some things to be left out and cutting the whole island/squid subplot might've seemed like a necessary evil to him and the screenwriter. Again, we probably will never know what went into the choices and who decided what, but well.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by DJ Rkod » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:18 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:08 pm
Have you read The Courtyard, Neonomicon, or Providence? I've read The Courtyard and it's a deliciously lean foray into Lovecraftian horror
Man, I'm into The Courtyard, but I think Neonomicon is up there with the worst comics I've ever read. I get that Moore wrote it in an angry state and it's an angry comic, but it is just a vicious, truly vile piece of work for hire in my eyes. And I read it after a pretty deep dive into Lovecraft and weird fiction in general, so it's not like I was wanting for background.

Miracleman (or Marvelman), though. That's the good stuff.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:23 pm

DJ Rkod wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:18 pm
Man, I'm into The Courtyard, but I think Neonomicon is up there with the worst comics I've ever read. I get that Moore wrote it in an angry state and it's an angry comic, but it is just a vicious, truly vile piece of work for hire in my eyes. And I read it after a pretty deep dive into Lovecraft and weird fiction in general, so it's not like I was wanting for background.
I'll be cautious but my curiosity is piqued. I've read some heinous British comics, all of the greats... Garth Ennis, Warren Ellis, Grant Morrison to name a few... have a period, or periods, of what you describe. Comics which represent the absolute pit of humanity often coordinating with their own mental state. These are, in their way, the worst comics I've ever read, but they are the ones which stick to the walls of my consciousness. I'll never stop thinking about Grant Morrison's The Filth, what a horrid read... I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to take away from it, I'm probably best to forget about it but such is the nature of the spell that I don't. It's a masterpiece of intention, but may the gods damn those intentions. An angry Alan Moore intrigues me, sincere thanks for the warning because that will likely be corrosive reading
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Slentert » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:35 pm

I read The Filth a while ago. Damn, did I hated that one. Didn't touch another comic for months after it.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:48 pm

To the usual readers of this thread, I'm so so sorry I dragged Watchmen into it.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Wooley » Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:55 pm

Thief wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:48 pm
To the usual readers of this thread, I'm so so sorry I dragged Watchmen into it.
Thank you. I'll be back when it's over.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:25 pm

Why is a discussion that turned out to be cordial between Nameless and myself and brought about a groovy write up like Ergill’s something to be apologized for?
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:29 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:25 pm
Why is a discussion that turned out to be cordial between Nameless and myself and brought about a groovy write up like Ergill’s something to be apologized for?
The apology was tongue-in-cheek and had nothing to do with your discussion per se, but rather with the fact that I brought a lengthy discussion of something that's not TV into a TV thread.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:04 pm

Wooley wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:55 pm
Thank you. I'll be back when it's over.
Nothing ends, Wooley, nothing ever ends.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:00 am

I thought that the finale of The Good Place was really well done.

Overall I enjoyed the series a lot, and I thought that they did a nice job of providing closure for the characters, offering a look at the process of loss and grieving, and just generally being enjoyably silly up to the end. I'm one of those people who adores Kristen Bell, but the rest of the cast just did a fantastic job in this final episode, especially William Jackson Harper, whose character was able to move away from "anxious nerd" territory and into a really developed person.

I'm glad the series ended at this point. I feel like it's rare for a network TV show to end at the right time--it's either "No! Gone too soon!" or "Ouch, those last two seasons were rough!". I feel like they told their story in just the right time frame. Watching the cast develop as a wonderfully flexible ensemble (as in, any combination of them just worked) was a delight. I'm going to miss this show, and I'm so pleased that they ended with a wonderful final episode.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by undinum » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:53 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:00 am
I'm one of those people who adores Kristen Bell
Wait a second, there are other kinds of people than this?
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:08 am

undinum wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:53 am
Wait a second, there are other kinds of people than this?
Sad, sad people.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:13 pm

undinum wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:53 am
Wait a second, there are other kinds of people than this?
Oi, don't PM me ever again as if I'm reading that shit. Don't talk to me, don't reply to me. I don't like you, this is all you get from me you fucking clown.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:57 pm

Undinum and Nameless sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S... wait? No? :shifty: :D
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by undinum » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:25 pm

I'm still glad I took the risk. And I am still sorry for being a shithead. And I still hope you have a good weekend and smoke weed everyday.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:07 pm

Watched the first two episodes of Cloak and Dagger and I'm liking it so far. I'm not familiar with the original comic, so I can't say anything about its fidelity to the story/characters.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Torgo » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:40 pm

I started watching Dream Corp LLC, an Adult Swim show which is as weird, absurd and silly as I was hoping it would be. It's about a back-alley and likely illegal clinic that uses virtual reality dream analysis to cure people's hangups like impotence, nicotine addiction, etc. The trippy and surprisingly high-quality computer graphics are a nice touch, but the true icing on the cake is Mark Proksch's butt-of-the-joke character Randy Blink. With his role in this show and his turns in What We Do in the Shadows (FX) and Better Call Saul, he's becoming one of my favorite comic actors, and it's not just because I look like him and also have Wisconsin roots. Honest.
You can watch it on Hulu.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Patrick McGroin » Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:59 pm

Dream Corp is a gem. I'm glad they finally put out some new episodes but it's looking like it's turned into a labor of love situation. Either that or not enough of the cast was available. Speaking of which, I hope AS brings back Your Pretty Face Is Going to Hell for another season.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Stu » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:57 am

I was discussing this on Facebook recently, so I'll take the chance here to reiterate that I really can't agree with the retrospective criticisms I've seen saying that Breaking Bad escalated Walter's arc too quickly, or that it went too over-the-top with its more thrilling moments, like with what Walt did near the end of "Crazy Handful Of Nothin'", as that's just cherry-picking an outlier, IMO. I mean, besides being a great moment on its own, Walt never did anything that crazy again for the rest of the series, and the show as a whole never tried to just desperately shove crazy moments in our faces to keep our attentions, but measured them out extremely carefully at a pretty much perfect pace, and maintained a superb balance between those thrills, the razor-ship writing, the brilliant, vibrant aesthetics, and an incredibly deep well of emotion and constantly growing characters, and I feel like saying otherwise would be like acting like every episode of The Shield saw Vic doing something equally as bad as what he did in the pilot (when it didn't), or like saying that that event left the rest of that series with nowhere to go, since it had Vic do what was objectively the most evil thing he did for the entire show in the very first episode, when it was setting the overall stakes at the perfect time, and setting up the arc that the entire show would follow brilliantly afterward.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:06 pm

To be honest, I have more issues with Walt burning the douche's car at the gas station than I have with him facing Tuco the way he did. Sure, the former helps establish his newfound attitude beyond the drug underworld, but it just feels too "crowd pleasing". The moment with Tuco, like you said, was a perfect example of him being against the wall but testing how far he's willing to go on his eventual descent. It was bold, but I really have no issues with it.

As for The Shield, the thing I like the most about what Vic does in the first episode is that it's something that chases him (them) for years, through all the seasons, until its inevitable conclusion. It's far from a throwaway gimmick to surprise us, but rather a carefully planned plot-point that, like you said, sets up the arc of the entire show.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Torgo » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:01 pm

I don't watch a lot of documentary series, but HBO's McMillions is the best one I've seen since Netflix's Wild Wild Country. It's worth watching for FBI agent Doug Matthew's performance alone (well, it's not a performance since he's a real person, but it might as well be one).
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:36 pm

Escape At Dannemora - 8.5/10

Finally catching up with this one (I don't have Showtime), and it is indeed as impressive as its reputation would suggest. Arquette and Dano are excellent, but Benicio is such a beast, frightening both in his manipulative malice and in his ultimate collapse of confidence.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Stu » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:20 am

Thief wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:06 pm
To be honest, I have more issues with Walt burning the douche's car at the gas station than I have with him facing Tuco the way he did. Sure, the former helps establish his newfound attitude beyond the drug underworld, but it just feels too "crowd pleasing". The moment with Tuco, like you said, was a perfect example of him being against the wall but testing how far he's willing to go on his eventual descent. It was bold, but I really have no issues with it.

As for The Shield, the thing I like the most about what Vic does in the first episode is that it's something that chases him (them) for years, through all the seasons, until its inevitable conclusion. It's far from a throwaway gimmick to surprise us, but rather a carefully planned plot-point that, like you said, sets up the arc of the entire show.
Yeah, in retrospect, the "KEN WINS" guy felt like an obvious strawman that the show manipulated us into hating (by Walt just so happening to run into him twice at "random"), setting him up as way too easy a target for our rage, which is part of the reason why that ep didn't hold as well when I first rewatched it. But yeah, I never had any problems with the "This is not meth" moment (not even the obvious question of how Walt survived being so close to an explosion that size), and never felt that it accelerated Walt's arc too quickly, as, at the most, it's an escalation of his external behavior, not a degradation in his innner morality (which was the whole attraction of his character arc), as blowing up a meth dealer's headquarters is hardly any more "immoral" than anything else he had done up to that point, y'know?

As for The Shield, it's a different story, seeing as how, unlike Walter, Vic is the "bad guy" immediately from the first scene, but its writing decisions still work just as well, as the end of the pilot is neccessary to firmly establish to us just how bad he is exactly, so that nothing else Vic does for the remainder of the series really surprises us (in terms of morality, not predictibility), as it all arises naturally from his established characterization as the strike team's bold, scrupleless leader, and the same goes for Shane being the loose cannon, Lem being the one with the conscience, etc.; it really was impressive how consistent that show was with its characterizations for so long, and I can hardly ever remember noting anyone acting out of character on it (unlike something like the early seasons of The Walking Dead, where Lori acts like Lady Macbeth one episode to manipulate Rick into killing someone, and then gets upset at him later when he does so; sheesh!).
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:05 pm

Stu wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:20 am
Yeah, in retrospect, the "KEN WINS" guy felt like an obvious strawman that the show manipulated us into hating (by Walt just so happening to run into him twice at "random"), setting him up as way too easy a target for our rage, which is part of the reason why that ep didn't hold as well when I first rewatched it. But yeah, I never had any problems with the "This is not meth" moment (not even the obvious question of how Walt survived being so close to an explosion that size), and never felt that it accelerated Walt's arc too quickly, as, at the most, it's an escalation of his external behavior, not a degradation in his innner morality (which was the whole attraction of his character arc), as blowing up a meth dealer's headquarters is hardly any more "immoral" than anything else he had done up to that point, y'know?

As for The Shield, it's a different story, seeing as how, unlike Walter, Vic is the "bad guy" immediately from the first scene, but its writing decisions still work just as well, as the end of the pilot is neccessary to firmly establish to us just how bad he is exactly, so that nothing else Vic does for the remainder of the series really surprises us (in terms of morality, not predictibility), as it all arises naturally from his established characterization as the strike team's bold, scrupleless leader, and the same goes for Shane being the loose cannon, Lem being the one with the conscience, etc.; it really was impressive how consistent that show was with its characterizations for so long, and I can hardly ever remember noting anyone acting out of character on it (unlike something like the early seasons of The Walking Dead, where Lori acts like Lady Macbeth one episode to manipulate Rick into killing someone, and then gets upset at him later when he does so; sheesh!).
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Torgo » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:59 pm

I'm a little more forgiving of the gas station explosion scene because it only happened four episodes in. Looking back, the first season of Breaking Bad was essentially a very long pilot, and pilots need to do things like that to get viewers on board. I think of all the cheese in the pilot for the 11/22/63 miniseries or all the fan service in the GoT pilot and how much it was redeemed by the how the rest of the seasons went (barring the last one for GoT, of course).
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:37 pm

Torgo wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:59 pm
I'm a little more forgiving of the gas station explosion scene because it only happened four episodes in.
To be fair, it's not a deal-breaker for me. But on hindsight, it sticks out a bit.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:16 am

Enjoying Locke & Key so far. It's at about the right level of intensity for me right now.

Also, Everything's Gonna Be Okay continues to get stronger. A two-episode arc that took a nuanced look at consent and disability was really interesting to me. I quite like the dynamic between the three siblings and every episode has had several laugh out loud moments for me.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Patrick McGroin » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:22 pm

Two episodes in on the latest Better Call Saul season and it's looking pretty good. The only flaw I sense is the hamster wheel aspect of Saul/Jimmy's relationship with Kim. Jimmy does something sleazy, she gets angry but eventually forgives him. They're eventually going to have to bring it to a head. I much prefer the Mike/Ignacio/Gus Fring arc.

And I'm really liking Awkwafina Is Nora from Queens. She's hilarious and a gifted physical actress. Think Lucille Ball or Gilda Radner.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Deschain13 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:41 pm

Yeah digging new BCS too, especially that first episode.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Torgo » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:43 pm

Torgo wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:32 pm
Criminal, an interrogation room procedural debuting on Netflix tomorrow, has potential. Firstly, David Tennant is in it.

This show - the British edition, anyway - is very good. Highly recommended for fans of Homicide: Life of the Street Episode "Three Men and Adena" and for fans of interrogation room scenes in general.
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