The Television Thread

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replican
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by replican » Tue May 05, 2020 7:58 pm

MrCarmady wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:47 pm
Mad Men worked really well on re-watch for me, it's so satisfying seeing some of these character going from 2D to 3D - for the first couple of seasons the first time around, I was thinking that the show was stylish and good but unspectacular, and then it kept getting better and better, which is so, so rare.
Speaking to the unspectacular factor, one of the distinctive things I remember about the show is what I believe to be from the first episode's ending. I think Don had been doing unscrupulous Don things the entire episode and it ends with him coming home, goes to his kid's room and tucks them in, fade to black. It was such a juxtaposition of everything that had taken place in that episode that it still stands out in mind after however many years since it aired.

I actually prefer shows to be unspectacular in the sense of a not having busy plot lines. I feel drama shows suffer from this. There are many times I find myself saying 'damn there sure is a ton of things happening to these characters in a condensed amount of time.' It's implausible. How the hell do they live when they aren't having to be insanely busy for plot purposes. I understand that it needs to be done for entertainment purposes. Ratings are king. It's one of the reasons I love Better Call Saul. It's realistically slow with characters given the plausible time react absorb and react to their surroundings.

On its initial run I remember loving the Roger character. But looking back on it I wish that they had cut some of his story in favor of the lesser developed ones. Roger is the flashy character and as a writer probably more fun to write than to develop another lesser character's story arc. But when you look back at it, his arc doesn't really offer much insight into anything. And it's been done to death
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Slentert » Tue May 05, 2020 8:25 pm

replican wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:41 pm
How does Mad Men hold up on re-watch? It was one of the few shows I watched in real time and didn't play catchup/binge. Thought it was absolutely brilliant but feel like a binge would make the Draper character always coming out on top a bit grating. House suffers from this. While House is a lot more repetitive in rhythm than Mad Men, they share that similarity of this revered protagonist who can do no wrong because of his brilliance.
This might be true for the first few seasons of Mad Men, but as the series continues, everyone around Don starts to realize what a mess he really is. By the end of the last season, I don't think anyone considers Don to be brilliant, not at the least Don himself.

Edit: I think throughout the entire series, the show does a pretty good job of pulling the rug right from under you every time you start to like Don too much, similarly to what the creators of The Sopranos did on that show.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Tue May 05, 2020 9:27 pm

Bandy Greensacks wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:56 pm
You can certainly make a case at this point that Better Call Saul is a better show than Breaking Bad
I know someone who didn't like Breaking Bad all that much but is really enjoying Better Call Saul.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Tue May 05, 2020 9:36 pm

I haven't felt motivated to check out Better Call Saul since finishing Breaking Bad, but idk. Maybe I'll find it to be a surprise, who knows?
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Tue May 05, 2020 9:40 pm

Also, there are several full episodes of Columbo available on YouTube and I've been putting them on as something to listen to while I fall asleep.

While I'm only getting about 1/3 of each episode, it's really reminding me how much I love the empathy that's present in so many of the episodes. While there's plenty of plot stuff that involves physical evidence (a mark left on a phone, a broken window, etc), there's also a lot of just behavior observation. I'm thinking especially of an episode where a woman kills her controlling/overbearing brother, but it's interesting how often Columbo seems to genuinely feel sorry for some of the people he catches in the act. To be sure there are villains who are horrible and evil, but so many of them are complex people who sometimes have made an understandable (if wrong) choice.


Also, I finished the third season of Futureman. While I found the season kind of uneven and unfocused at times, I enjoyed it overall. I also really felt like they stuck the landing. This was one of those shows where I thought "How can they end this?" and they pulled it off.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Tue May 05, 2020 9:52 pm

Bandy Greensacks wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:56 pm
You can certainly make a case at this point that Better Call Saul is a better show than Breaking Bad
Nostalgia is a thing, but so too is there a tendency to be biased in terms of the show that you're watching now. And there is a sort of inevitable hyperbole associated with social-advertising for the show.

Also, you have to stick the landing (e.g., GoT), and you have to be able to review the whole arc of the series to really judge it. Count no man happy until he is in the grave.

This sort of comparison won't really be possible until Saul has completed its series run and has "cooled off" for a year or two.

The writer's room for these shows belongs on the Mr. Rushmore of writer's rooms. They understand emplotment and dialogue and motivation unlike other shows that just get LOST after a promising premise is established.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Bandy Greensacks » Tue May 05, 2020 10:02 pm

Speaking of GoT, I think it's safe to say that show was doomed the moment George R.R. Martin couldn't finish the unreleased books in time. D&D rightfully get shit for the last few seasons, but they weren't hired to be creative geniuses - they were hired to adapt an existing, well loved piece of fiction, and the writer of that work of fiction either ran out of ideas or got caught up in his own hype.

The only way to save GoT would have been to delay it until Martin finished the books.

...Then again, D&D also made the decision to cut out Lady Stoneheart and run that godawful Sand Snake/Dorne arc. So maybe not.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Tue May 05, 2020 10:10 pm

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:52 pm
Nostalgia is a thing, but so too is there a tendency to be biased in terms of the show that you're watching now. And there is a sort of inevitable hyperbole associated with social-advertising for the show.

Also, you have to stick the landing (e.g., GoT), and you have to be able to review the whole arc of the series to really judge it. Count no man happy until he is in the grave.

This sort of comparison won't really be possible until Saul has completed its series run and has "cooled off" for a year or two.

The writer's room for these shows belongs on the Mr. Rushmore of writer's rooms. They understand emplotment and dialogue and motivation unlike other shows that just get LOST after a promising premise is established.
Image


But anyway, I agree. I've said it before here that as much as I'm enjoying Better Call Saul, I still wouldn't put it over Breaking Bad and I'd rather wait until it finishes to emit any judgment (which is why I didn't include any current show on my list).

Game of Thrones is a perfect example in that, if you asked me 4 or 5 years ago, I would've had it on my Top 3. But now? it wouldn't even crack my Top 10. It is one of the most steep quality drop-offs I've experienced on a show ever.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Tue May 05, 2020 10:16 pm

Bandy Greensacks wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:02 pm
Speaking of GoT, I think it's safe to say that show was doomed the moment George R.R. Martin couldn't finish the unreleased books in time. D&D rightfully get shit for the last few seasons, but they weren't hired to be creative geniuses - they were hired to adapt an existing, well loved piece of fiction, and the writer of that work of fiction either ran out of ideas or got caught up in his own hype.

The only way to save GoT would have been to delay it until Martin finished the books.

...Then again, D&D also made the decision to cut out Lady Stoneheart and run that godawful Sand Snake/Dorne arc. So maybe not.
I wouldn't cut D&D that much slack. Losing the "GRRM wheels" by season 5 just proved how inexperienced and uncapable they were of flying solo, but as far as I understand, they made some choices that could've at least lessened the blow of how awful those last seasons were (opting for the shorter 6-episode seasons instead of the usual 10). Not sure if that would've had much of an effect on the overall quality of the show, but at least it would've given the story and the many plots more room to breathe.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by replican » Tue May 05, 2020 11:28 pm

Thief wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:10 pm
But anyway, I agree. I've said it before here that as much as I'm enjoying Better Call Saul, I still wouldn't put it over Breaking Bad and I'd rather wait until it finishes to emit any judgment (which is why I didn't include any current show on my list).

Game of Thrones is a perfect example in that, if you asked me 4 or 5 years ago, I would've had it on my Top 3. But now? it wouldn't even crack my Top 10. It is one of the most steep quality drop-offs I've experienced on a show ever.
Are you at least ready to put the creation of Kim on par with Walter?

Shit I'd watch a spin-off with Kim doing straight up legalise type stuff. Like House but instead with torts n stuff. Kim would save the day every week with some brilliant defense pulled from memory about a precedence set in small town back in 1920.

Kim is up there with Omar Comin and Al Swearengen as my favorite tv show characters.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by wichares » Tue May 05, 2020 11:42 pm

Re: Better Call Saul vs Breaking Bad. The non-Jimmy/Kim stories are what’s holding the series back from me preferring it over Breaking Bad. In fact, the second half of this season is actually my favorite stretch of BCS in a few seasons (maybe since late season 2), because plotlines finally diverge and weave in/out as needed, so it's not only Jimmy/Kim that's consistently at high level. But the first half had me slightly struggled a bit. This is what I wrote at the time of "Dedicado a Max" (aka The One Where Mike Is In Recovery), right before the start of that awesome stretch (next episode being "Wexler v. Goodman"):

Once again I wish that this series would have been (or can afford to be?) only about Jimmy/Kim now. It’s the only plotline that gains sweeping breadth from the meticulously detailed storytelling and measured pacing, whereas other stories only take flight for me when they intersect with the main one, and otherwise are often only solid, or even at times drags along rather than digs deeper (as Mike’s this week does). I’ve longed to join the “better than Breaking Bad” crowd for some years now because the way Jimmy/Kim’s story is carefully plotted out and artfully told feels so unique in TV landscape and can definitely transcend BB. But it shares space in the series with other more BB-beholden ones that really should have the pulpier storytelling like BB, so I can’t commit to that notion.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by replican » Wed May 06, 2020 12:58 am

The the non-J/K stories gave us Lalo. I can forgive the other weaknesses. I admit that last season's meth lab construction was a drag. But even that gave us the execution in the desert scene.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Wed May 06, 2020 1:06 am

replican wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:28 pm
Are you at least ready to put the creation of Kim on par with Walter?

Shit I'd watch a spin-off with Kim doing straight up legalise type stuff. Like House but instead with torts n stuff. Kim would save the day every week with some brilliant defense pulled from memory about a precedence set in small town back in 1920.

Kim is up there with Omar Comin and Al Swearengen as my favorite tv show characters.
I have nothing but praise for almost every cast member involved. From Bob Odenkirk, who has shown why he deserved his own story, to Michael McKean, who might've stolen almost every episode he was in, to Michael Mando, who has given so much layers to a character that seemed disposable and has continued to do so despite his lack in screentime, to Rhea Seehorn, who has become probably the best character of the show (just to name a few). If McKean owned the first three seasons, the last two belong to Seehorn. She's excellent, no doubt about it.

My issues (which are minor, to be honest) are more with the construction of the stories and the pace.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Wed May 06, 2020 1:10 am

wichares wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:42 pm
Re: Better Call Saul vs Breaking Bad. The non-Jimmy/Kim stories are what’s holding the series back from me preferring it over Breaking Bad. In fact, the second half of this season is actually my favorite stretch of BCS in a few seasons (maybe since late season 2), because plotlines finally diverge and weave in/out as needed, so it's not only Jimmy/Kim that's consistently at high level. But the first half had me slightly struggled a bit. This is what I wrote at the time of "Dedicado a Max" (aka The One Where Mike Is In Recovery), right before the start of that awesome stretch (next episode being "Wexler v. Goodman"):

Once again I wish that this series would have been (or can afford to be?) only about Jimmy/Kim now. It’s the only plotline that gains sweeping breadth from the meticulously detailed storytelling and measured pacing, whereas other stories only take flight for me when they intersect with the main one, and otherwise are often only solid, or even at times drags along rather than digs deeper (as Mike’s this week does). I’ve longed to join the “better than Breaking Bad” crowd for some years now because the way Jimmy/Kim’s story is carefully plotted out and artfully told feels so unique in TV landscape and can definitely transcend BB. But it shares space in the series with other more BB-beholden ones that really should have the pulpier storytelling like BB, so I can’t commit to that notion.
I have to admit that I still haven't seen the second half of the season. But even though I'm missing that, I agree with your general idea.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by wichares » Wed May 06, 2020 1:59 am

replican wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 12:58 am
The the non-J/K stories gave us Lalo. I can forgive the other weaknesses. I admit that last season's meth lab construction was a drag. But even that gave us the execution in the desert scene.
Yeah those stories are generally pretty good and have their great parts/high points. But my post is about that they are just not as consistent and/or the same level as the J/K one, so sometimes in the midst of them I would be waiting to get back to our main one instead, and that is what keeps me from boarding on "Better than BB" train.

Another example, and this may be just me, is that when a new season starts, I can always remember where the Jimmy/Kim plot leaves off last year. But for other stories, a lot of times I have to read up the tail end of last season's episodes on wiki to freshen up my memory, because they often feel both separated from our main throughline and not as consequential when the season ends to linger as deeply like J/K's on my mind (Obviously, with how it now streamlines with J/K and has a memorable central focus in Lalo, this won't be the case for the final season next year). Like, as of now, I can tell you right off each season's arcs for both Jimmy and Kim, but apart from "Mike and the lab" last season, I struggle to do the same with other characters.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by replican » Wed May 06, 2020 2:24 am

o I'm completely lost in the whole cartel double crossing plot line. The fact that the BCS/BB universe spans such a long period now, in addition to the fact that I've only seen both shows once on their initial run, has made keeping up with how all the dots connect or relate to each other difficult. I wasn't even aware of where Cinnabon Saul fell in the universe timeline wise until a couple weeks ago when I learned of the Saul quote from BB.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Stu » Thu May 07, 2020 12:49 am

replican wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 8:40 pm
But your judgement of BB seems a bit off. I'm not familiar with the backlash of the Gunn character. Side note, I heard her years ago on the Opie and Anthony show. She seemed really cool and ironically very jocular. It's a shame that morons would direct any disrespect towards her. I haven't watched show in a while but from I remember she really was not developed much. We don't get much of a character arc with her. There were several plot lines I would have liked to have seen BB run with but as the show went along I feel like the writers knew they couldn't fight the Walter White tsunami.
Nah, Skyler got as much development as Jesse, Gus, or any of the other main supporting characters on that show, the way in Season 3 that
she just couldn't stand to report Walt to the authorities and end up tearing the family apart as a result (a tension that continued with her for the rest of the series, as she came to grips with the monster that she's now trapped in a marriage with, with a mountain of blood money that she can't live without), with that scene in "Mas" where she confesses to her lawyer that she feels like she's constantly drowning in her daily life, and fear that if she takes one single step in any direction at all, that she'll ruin everything? That's some of the best character development in that entire series, yo.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by replican » Thu May 07, 2020 12:51 am

^Will need to re-watch BB before new season of BCS.

Which means I have like 3 years to do so :(
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Stu » Thu May 07, 2020 1:03 am

Kenji wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:10 am
Hmmm.

I'm going to need everyone to list their top 10 TV shows, no necessarily in order. Definitely going to put The Midnight Gospel on my to watch list.
I'm pretty sure I haven't seen 10 shows that I've given perfect 10s to, but the ones I have would look like...

1. Cowboy Bebop/Breaking Bad

And then in no particular order:

90's Simpsons
The Shield
Star Trek: Deep Space 9
Mystery Science Theater 3000
Gungrave
Futurama
replican wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 12:51 am
^Will need to re-watch BB before new season of BCS.

Which means I have like 3 years to do so :(
Well, you don't have to rewatch the whole series to get the gist of her conflict; just check out this one scene in "Fifty One" where she's trying to
pressure Walter to keep their children out of the house, and you'll see what I mean:

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Re: The Television Thread

Post by replican » Thu May 07, 2020 4:03 am

Did anyone ever get into Enlightened with Laura Dern?

Randomly binged it and was impressed. Nothing groundbreaking but a unique leading character that I found fascinating.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Thu May 07, 2020 3:24 pm

Any parents out there, my kids would like to recommend this animated show called Zig & Sharko :D It's on Netflix.

Image

Like I've said before, they gobble pretty much anything we put in front of them but the reaction to this one has been unanimously good. They focus on it and laugh to no end :D
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Thu May 07, 2020 3:44 pm

Thief wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:24 pm
Any parents out there, my kids would like to recommend this animated show called Zig & Sharko :D It's on Netflix.

Image

Like I've said before, they gobble pretty much anything we put in front of them but the reaction to this one has been unanimously good. They focus on it and laugh to no end :D
I watched several episodes. There was something that I remember not liking, possibly something that seemed racist? I can't remember specifically. I love the style and the classic slapstick vibe of it.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Thu May 07, 2020 3:48 pm

Takoma1 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:44 pm
I watched several episodes. There was something that I remember not liking, possibly something that seemed racist? I can't remember specifically. I love the style and the classic slapstick vibe of it.
ahh, I have watched bits and pieces here and there. Haven't paid attention that closely to notice that, though.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Captain Terror » Thu May 07, 2020 4:26 pm

That's either a shark running on land or a razorback running underwater. I demand an explanation.

(the faces sort of remind me of Cow & Chicken. Any idea if there's a connection?)
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Thu May 07, 2020 4:37 pm

Captain Terror wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:26 pm
That's either a shark running on land or a razorback running underwater. I demand an explanation.

(the faces sort of remind me of Cow & Chicken. Any idea if there's a connection?)
Apparently not.

And it's a shark with legs, that frequently walks on land, and is constantly defending a mermaid from a hungry hyena.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Thu May 07, 2020 6:15 pm

Thief wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:48 pm
ahh, I have watched bits and pieces here and there. Haven't paid attention that closely to notice that, though.
I think it was in a specific episode, not so much spread out over the whole series.

I did find its gender politics a bit . . . unenlightened.

I might have to rewatch to give you more specifics.

But on the whole I really enjoyed it. A few years back I would put episodes on as the last thing I'd watch before bed just to clear my mind and get a quick laugh.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Charles » Tue May 12, 2020 2:47 am

There's an episode of The Outer Limits that opens with this scene:

Image

And lemme tell ya, it peaks right then and there.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Stu » Tue May 12, 2020 6:52 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 3:14 pm
Top 10 "shows" in some sort of order

Evangelion
"Classic" Simpsons
The three seasons I've watched of Buffy
The first season of The Knick (uh, yeah, the second... I'll get on that)
Avatar: The Last Airbender
The Sopranos
The Wire
Twin Peaks: The Return
The Venture Bros
Adventure Time tied with Regular Show

Breaking B is a trash heap.
I'd just like to point out that Nameless already admitted that he never watched it past the second season...

:shifty:
Takoma1 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 3:23 am
Favorite Shows

Hannibal
I enjoyed Hannibal a lot on the whole, as it was one of the most unique, stylish network shows I've ever seen, but I wouldn't be able to call it a favorite on the whole, because I feel it kind of had a hard time finding the right groove for itself plot-wise, as Season 1 relied a bit too much on a familiar "killer of the week" formula, with its eps feeling too standalone, while Season 3 relied a bit too much on adapting the basic plots of the novels (one of which, Red Dragon, we've already seen tackled multiple times in theaters). It's the reason why Season 2 was my favorite, because it both had a continual story arc, and also found the right balance between adapting Harris's material while also adding in original, show-only sub-plots to keep things feeling fresher, y'know?
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Tue May 12, 2020 7:02 pm

Stu wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 6:52 pm
I enjoyed Hannibal a lot on the whole, as it was one of the most unique, stylish network shows I've ever seen, but I wouldn't be able to call it a favorite on the whole, because I feel it kind of had a hard time finding the right groove for itself plot-wise, as Season 1 relied a bit too much on a familiar "killer of the week" formula, with its eps feeling too standalone, while Season 3 relied a bit too much on adapting the basic plots of the novels (one of which, Red Dragon, we've already seen tackled multiple times in theaters). It's the reason why Season 2 was my favorite, because it both had a continual story arc, and also found the right balance between adapting Harris's material while also adding in original, show-only sub-plots to keep things feeling fresher, y'know?
While the first season does lean more heavily on police procedure and "killer of the week", it also does a really good job of establishing the main characters and also letting those weekly plots give us windows into the main characters. And even within the trappings of a "killer of the week" plot, it manages to be visually stunning.

The second and third seasons were close to equal for me. By the third season, it's all about the main characters, and the cast is strong enough to carry it that way. I liked their approach to the Red Dragon story (I haven't read the book, but Manhunter is my favorite Harris property). And despite the two lead characters being white men, it's a show that's casually diverse in a lot of ways in terms of its secondary/supporting characters in a way that you don't often see.

It's a show that I will go back and watch scenes from, and for me that's a huge part of something being a favorite.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Tue May 12, 2020 7:49 pm

Takoma1 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:02 pm
While the first season does lean more heavily on police procedure and "killer of the week", it also does a really good job of establishing the main characters and also letting those weekly plots give us windows into the main characters. And even within the trappings of a "killer of the week" plot, it manages to be visually stunning.

The second and third seasons were close to equal for me. By the third season, it's all about the main characters, and the cast is strong enough to carry it that way. I liked their approach to the Red Dragon story (I haven't read the book, but Manhunter is my favorite Harris property). And despite the two lead characters being white men, it's a show that's casually diverse in a lot of ways in terms of its secondary/supporting characters in a way that you don't often see.

It's a show that I will go back and watch scenes from, and for me that's a huge part of something being a favorite.
Stu wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 6:52 pm
I enjoyed Hannibal a lot on the whole, as it was one of the most unique, stylish network shows I've ever seen, but I wouldn't be able to call it a favorite on the whole, because I feel it kind of had a hard time finding the right groove for itself plot-wise, as Season 1 relied a bit too much on a familiar "killer of the week" formula, with its eps feeling too standalone, while Season 3 relied a bit too much on adapting the basic plots of the novels (one of which, Red Dragon, we've already seen tackled multiple times in theaters). It's the reason why Season 2 was my favorite, because it both had a continual story arc, and also found the right balance between adapting Harris's material while also adding in original, show-only sub-plots to keep things feeling fresher, y'know?
Some random thoughts about this... I think that the "procedural" vibe of season 1 is fairly common in these kind of shows. I recently rewatched Season 1 of The Shield and felt the same, but I think it's an effective way to explore and establish the different characters as the writers and actors get the footing of the show.

As for Season 3, I think it came to be after the show had already gone over the threat of cancellation, so I do think it tried to juggle the themes that Fuller wanted to present while also rushing some things that were probably meant for later seasons (I'm speculating though). I remember feeling a certain gap between the first half and the second half of the season that was quite distinct.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Tue May 12, 2020 8:01 pm

Thief wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:49 pm
Some random thoughts about this... I think that the "procedural" vibe of season 1 is fairly common in these kind of shows. I recently rewatched Season 1 of The Shield and felt the same, but I think it's an effective way to explore and establish the different characters as the writers and actors get the footing of the show.
Yes, I think that watching characters address "external" conflicts is a good way to establish dynamics between characters. It also makes for an interesting transition when the kind of secondary characters who usually hang around forever (ie the technicians) become actual potential victims.
As for Season 3, I think it came to be after the show had already gone over the threat of cancellation, so I do think it tried to juggle the themes that Fuller wanted to present while also rushing some things that were probably meant for later seasons (I'm speculating though). I remember feeling a certain gap between the first half and the second half of the season that was quite distinct.
I think that they did a good job of not making it FEEL rushed, and yet they do put a lot of plot into that final season. I liked it because it dove so deep into the Lector/Graham dynamic, but you could easily see two or three of the subplots being something that could have gone for a whole season.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Tue May 12, 2020 8:29 pm

I should clarify that the gap I felt was not in terms of quality, but rather in terms of the plots/subplots and also the way they were presented (first half was more surreal/cerebral, dealing with the Hannibal/Graham dynamic you mention, while second half felt more mainstream and focused on the Tooth Fairy).
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by The Nameless Two » Tue May 12, 2020 10:22 pm

Stu wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 6:52 pm
I'd just like to point out that Nameless already admitted that he never watched it past the second season...

:shifty:
It shouldn't take two seasons and then some for a show to generate a hook, and I acknowledge that this "hook" is subjective... but I do fall within the realm of "I should like this". Bryan Cranston cooking meth sounds like a trip, what I watched wasn't. One of my heavy critiques against these AMC shows is their language censorship, it's unnatural. These people are cooking meth, talk like it. It really crosses my suspension of disbelief wires, especially in having first hand witness of a lot of what they are exploring. I know the people the show is trying to emulate... Breaking Bad may as well be called Bleaching Bad.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Stu » Thu May 14, 2020 3:51 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:02 pm
While the first season does lean more heavily on police procedure and "killer of the week", it also does a really good job of establishing the main characters and also letting those weekly plots give us windows into the main characters. And even within the trappings of a "killer of the week" plot, it manages to be visually stunning.

The second and third seasons were close to equal for me. By the third season, it's all about the main characters, and the cast is strong enough to carry it that way. I liked their approach to the Red Dragon story (I haven't read the book, but Manhunter is my favorite Harris property). And despite the two lead characters being white men, it's a show that's casually diverse in a lot of ways in terms of its secondary/supporting characters in a way that you don't often see.

It's a show that I will go back and watch scenes from, and for me that's a huge part of something being a favorite.
True, but the case of the week format of the first season still lead them to waste some great guest stars (including Lance Henriksen, of all people), and it felt just a bit too much like a more stylish version of CSI, while the third season suffered a bit from Force Awakens syndrome, which, while it was entertaining, it was still also a bit too familiar a remake/adaptation of something I've already read/watched multiple times before. Don't get me wrong, I at least liked every season of the show, I just wish it had all been more like season two, which found the right groove for it plotting-wise, and managed to be a legitimitely great season as a result of that.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Thu May 14, 2020 4:33 am

Stu wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:51 am
True, but the case of the week format of the first season still lead them to waste some great guest stars (including Lance Henriksen, of all people), and it felt just a bit too much like a more stylish version of CSI, while the third season suffered a bit from Force Awakens syndrome, which, while it was entertaining, it was still also a bit too familiar a remake/adaptation of something I've already read/watched multiple times before. Don't get me wrong, I at least liked every season of the show, I just wish it had all been more like season two, which found the right groove for it plotting-wise, and managed to be a legitimitely great season as a result of that.
I think that comparing Hannibal's first season to CSI way undersells how much "big picture" work they did in that season. And especially in the final third of the season.

It's a show that I would happily rewatch in its entirety, and outside of what I think of as "popcorn shows" (things like Psych), that's a real rarity for me.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Stu » Thu May 14, 2020 5:08 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 4:33 am
I think that comparing Hannibal's first season to CSI way undersells how much "big picture" work they did in that season. And especially in the final third of the season.

It's a show that I would happily rewatch in its entirety, and outside of what I think of as "popcorn shows" (things like Psych), that's a real rarity for me.
And I liked that big picture work that they did in the first season (in fact, it's a big part of why I still liked S1); I just felt that it would've been better if it had spent less time on the killers of the week, and taken a more serialized approach, which is why I prefer season two when I compare them.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Stu » Thu May 14, 2020 5:13 am

Thief wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:49 pm
Some random thoughts about this... I think that the "procedural" vibe of season 1 is fairly common in these kind of shows. I recently rewatched Season 1 of The Shield and felt the same, but I think it's an effective way to explore and establish the different characters as the writers and actors get the footing of the show.
True, although The Shield did always have somewhat of a "case of the week" format to its plotting, even in the final season, although that's just to be expected when portraying the day-to-day work of police officers. Don't get me wrong, some of those cases of the week were really interesting in their own rights, like
that Korean kid who spontaneously assaulted the older man because of some long-standing family/ethnic conflict in season two or three, and who said that doing so just "felt right" in the moment,
but the real reason why I loved the show on the whole was the development of the personal conflicts/agendas within the department and the Strike Team itself, which provided the real emotional weight of the series for me.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Stu » Thu May 14, 2020 8:09 am

But hey, at least Hannibal gave us this, eh?:



:D
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Thu May 14, 2020 2:13 pm

Stu wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 5:08 am
And I liked that big picture work that they did in the first season (in fact, it's a big part of why I still liked S1); I just felt that it would've been better if it had spent less time on the killers of the week, and taken a more serialized approach, which is why I prefer season two when I compare them.
I think that a large part of why the second season works is because of how it deconstructs and plays with the relationships established in the first season.

Having all of the main character be allies is a critical phase of the story that they're telling, and having them collaborate on common external problems (ie the case of the week) is a good way to do that. I'm not saying that they couldn't have come up with another way to establish those dynamics, but in the context of them all being detectives and psychologists, working on cases together is a natural way to bring them together.

Even the worst episode of Hannibal is incredibly watchable, and it manages to be consistently dark and suspenseful without being overly bleak (something helped by the lush visuals). It's on my top 10 list because it checks all of those boxes for me.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Captain Terror » Thu May 14, 2020 2:18 pm

Warner Home Entertainment has announced the Blu-ray release of Wonder Woman: The Complete Collection on 7/28, including all 59 episodes of the classic 1970s live-action series plus the original pilot movie. There will also be audio commentary by Lynda Carter and executive producer Douglas S. Cramer on the pilot movie, an additional commentary by Carter on a Season Three episode, and 3 featurettes.

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 14, 2020 2:21 pm

S1 works incredibly well due to the performance of Hugh Dancy as Will. Mikkelson is brilliant in the titular role but it's Dancy who steals the show by giving each and every killer of the week plot emotional weight that grounds the absurdity of the killings. I've never seen another network procedural so invested in exploring the intense emotional toll that investigating these murders can have on the investigator.

The style of the show is also uniformly magnificent, with far and away the best sound design I've heard on TV that helps put you in the subjective headspace of Will.

S2 and 3 are definitely superior but even if I take Hannibal s1 as another procedural, it's still the greatest network procedural since s1 of Homicide.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Thu May 14, 2020 2:53 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:21 pm
S1 works incredibly well due to the performance of Hugh Dancy as Will. Mikkelson is brilliant in the titular role but it's Dancy who steals the show by giving each and every killer of the week plot emotional weight that grounds the absurdity of the killings. I've never seen another network procedural so invested in exploring the intense emotional toll that investigating these murders can have on the investigator.
Yes. Lots of shows have main characters who are very insightful and can "get in the killer's head", but Hannibal is able to show that this can come from a dark place. Will's empathy as both superpower and curse is such a compelling hook.

One of my favorite scenes is a very quiet one. It's the one where the woman's body is found inside the horse. It's in the episode after that one, and Will goes to visit the
man who put her there. They are talking and Will notices that the man has a mouse in his pocket. He smiles and it's sweet and heartbreaking all at once. He's communicating with another person who is deeply empathetic, and yet they are on such different paths.
Hugh Dancy's portrayal of vulnerability and determination is really amazing. And the fact that despite his humanity he still strongly resonates with something in Hannibal is an endlessly fascinating character element.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 14, 2020 3:18 pm

Takoma1 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:53 pm
Yes. Lots of shows have main characters who are very insightful and can "get in the killer's head", but Hannibal is able to show that this can come from a dark place. Will's empathy as both superpower and curse is such a compelling hook.

One of my favorite scenes is a very quiet one. It's the one where the woman's body is found inside the horse. It's in the episode after that one, and Will goes to visit the
man who put her there. They are talking and Will notices that the man has a mouse in his pocket. He smiles and it's sweet and heartbreaking all at once. He's communicating with another person who is deeply empathetic, and yet they are on such different paths.
Hugh Dancy's portrayal of vulnerability and determination is really amazing. And the fact that despite his humanity he still strongly resonates with something in Hannibal is an endlessly fascinating character element.
Jeremy Davies was fantastic as always in that small role.

I ultimately think Dancy is the reason the show works so well for all of these reasons. His empathy, his relationship with Hannibal, and his morality/soul being at hazard are the consistent crux for all 3 seasons. It's almost non-existent that a drama/thriller allows an actor this dynamic of material without turning them into an anti-hero.

I struggle to imagine what they could've done with Clarice should she have replaced Will as was seemingly the plan. I have faith in Fuller, given how he executed the best version of Red Dragon within the context of his show, but they would've needed a Swinton level performer to pull off a comparable performance.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Thu May 14, 2020 3:21 pm

Stu wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 5:13 am
True, although The Shield did always have somewhat of a "case of the week" format to its plotting, even in the final season, although that's just to be expected when portraying the day-to-day work of police officers. Don't get me wrong, some of those cases of the week were really interesting in their own rights, like
that Korean kid who spontaneously assaulted the older man because of some long-standing family/ethnic conflict in season two or three, and who said that doing so just "felt right" in the moment,
but the real reason why I loved the show on the whole was the development of the personal conflicts/agendas within the department and the Strike Team itself, which provided the real emotional weight of the series for me.
Yeah, but as the show goes on and we become more accustomed to each character, those "case of the week" serve more as a window into the specific characters than just a "whodunnit". But one of the things I admire most of the show is the way that it manages to cement certain plot arcs from episode 1 to episode 88, and keep them relevant all through. From the murder of you-know-who on episode 1 to the murder of you-know-who on season 5, from the Armenian Money Train in season 2 to Antwon Mitchell in Season 4, from what happened to Aceveda in season 3 to what happens between Tavon and Shane in season 3. There's a conscious effort to make all those plots and subplots resonate all through the show that not every show succeeds at.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Thu May 14, 2020 3:23 pm

Re: Hannibal, not much to add to what everybody has said, but I just wanted to join on Hugh Dancy's praise as the real anchor of the show. His performance was sublime.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Torgo » Thu May 14, 2020 4:08 pm

Just a reminder that What We Do in the Shadows has been killing it this season. Last night's episode was simply irresistible.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Thief » Thu May 14, 2020 4:10 pm

Torgo wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 4:08 pm
Just a reminder that What We Do in the Shadows has been killing it this season. Last night's episode was simply irresistible.
I need to get on that. I loved the film but was a bit wary about the TV show. But so far, everything I've read is good.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Torgo » Thu May 14, 2020 4:18 pm

Thief wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 4:10 pm
I need to get on that. I loved the film but was a bit wary about the TV show. But so far, everything I've read is good.
I was skeptical as well, but I'm glad I took a chance because there are times when it's as funny if not funnier than the movie. They compare similarly to how The Office (U.S.) compares to The Office (U.K.): while it borrows from it often, it becomes more and more of its own entity over time.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Deschain13 » Thu May 14, 2020 5:28 pm

Torgo wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 4:08 pm
Just a reminder that What We Do in the Shadows has been killing it this season. Last night's episode was simply irresistible.
Yeah this season has been great. I think I like the characters from the movie more but the show is real fun.
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Re: The Television Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Thu May 14, 2020 6:00 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:18 pm
Jeremy Davies was fantastic as always in that small role.
I was really disappointed that he was only in those two episodes. I thought that he provided a nice counterbalance as someone who is also "different", but has gone the opposite direction of Hannibal.
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