A Corrierino Awareness Thread

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Melvin Butterworth
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:18 am

Ergill wrote: Yes, yes. Not interested in that merry-go-round anymore.
Yes, quite a good time to quit. Right at the moment where you're cornered and forced to give straight answers after dragging the conversation all the way to Strange Fruit and Pizza Gate.

I still mark you a coward.

And how shall I respond when in the future you protest from the sidelines that I am dodging you?

And let's not forget that I didn't ask for this. I specifically asked you to just move on with your life. I have not spent years seeking you out and demanding lengthy conversation. I have politely ducked you and asked you to move on. Perhaps now, finally, you shall catch the clue.
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Ergill
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:23 pm

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Yes, quite a good time to quit. Right at the moment where you're cornered and forced to give straight answers after dragging the conversation all the way to Strange Fruit and Pizza Gate.

I still mark you a coward.

And how shall I respond when in the future you protest from the sidelines that I am dodging you?

And let's not forget that I didn't ask for this. I specifically asked you to just move on with your life. I have not spent years seeking you out and demanding lengthy conversation. I have politely ducked you and asked you to move on. Perhaps now, finally, you shall catch the clue.
Takeaway: you wanted to make the cost for arguing with you as high as possible by weighing down the discussion with misrepresentations and non-sequiturs and by demanding that I repeat myself ad nauseam . Here's your Tough Guy medal.
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Oxnard Montalvo
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:38 pm

also I dunno what the Democrats think they are going to accomplish by making an example out of Omar but at least it's putting our ongoing issues with Israel out in the open.
I hope she's staying safe though. :shifty:
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by LEAVES » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:32 pm

It's pretty stupid, though no politician should talk about controversial issues on Twitter. Use Twitter as a hype machine, not as a basis for a substantive conversation about intricate and highly charged topics.

Do not use Twitter for:

1. Abortion
2. Slamming theocratic states
3. Explaining the nuances of our sociopolitical system
etc.
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Oxnard Montalvo
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:19 pm

m'yeah, the way she expressed it on Twitter wasn't very delicate. imo that's not the biggest issue although you're right that stuff like that could generate needless controversy for topics that don't need any additional controversy as it is.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:03 pm

Omar's critics have accused her of playing into anti-Semitic tropes and caricatures. How many Chesters shall we award her?

On the other hand, "anti-Semitism" has been an effective shield for Israel to deflect criticism. More than this, it is a convenient way anyone to accuse an opponent of being "icky." Seeing as how Jewishness partakes of questions of ethnicity, faith, and nationalism, this is a very big tent, and charges of anti-Semitism are sometimes lobbed at hilariously inappropriate targets (e.g., Ben Shapiro accused of anti-Semitism).

This isn't an either/or situation. We have real deal anti-Semitism on the left (as much as I love Jackson's metaphor of the quilt, he is also the guy who gave us the image of New York as Hymie Town) and the right (no need for an example for this echo chamber), but be also have "My Name is Rachel Corrie" criticized for being anti-Semitic, with some productions being shut down.
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Ergill
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:01 am

Melvin Butterworth wrote:Omar's critics have accused her of playing into anti-Semitic tropes and caricatures. How many Chesters shall we award her?
I guess you might as well laugh at your own jokes so long as nobody else will.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:41 am

Ergill wrote: I guess you might as well laugh at your own jokes so long as nobody else will.
You have five propositions to answer before we interact again, sorry.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by LEAVES » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:53 pm

If there was any wonder as to whether YARN will die alone, that seals it.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Death Proof » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:36 pm

LEAVES wrote:If there was any wonder as to whether YARN will die alone, that seals it.

Nah, there was never any wonder.

Shepherds we shall be, for thee, my Lord, for thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, our feet may swiftly carry out Thy commands.
So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:38 pm

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
You have five propositions to answer before we interact again, sorry.
There is nothing to apologize for here. Thank you SO MUCH for nailing your own coffin shut
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The Nameless One
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:46 pm

*chuckling* hey, Ergill, how are those five propositions coming along? Y'know what YARN? Make it ten, really ensure that this evil forever remains sealed
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Torgo » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:01 pm

Image

Just popping in to say that this is the first thing that came to mind.
Last Great Movie Seen
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (Kaufman, 1978)
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Jinnistan
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:58 pm

Oxnard Montalvo wrote:m'yeah, the way she expressed it on Twitter wasn't very delicate. imo that's not the biggest issue although you're right that stuff like that could generate needless controversy for topics that don't need any additional controversy as it is.
I think it's getting very petty, and borderline explicit in basically telling her that, as a Muslim woman, the topic is simply off-limits for her to talk about. I honestly don't see any other way to interpret the sensitivity here.

The fact that AIPAC is among the most powerful lobbying interests in DC has not been controversial for 20 years (since Bibi's first term), and someone like Colin Powell could say that criticizing Israel is not antisemitic without one murmur of discontent. AIPAC also deserves criticism from anyone who supports a two-state solution (the accepted "moderate" position) because their ostensible position has been one of supporting the status quo, which is why there's effectively been no progress in that time. WaPo published a thorough rundown of AIPAC's history, and there's nothing here that is surprising to progressive left. The inadequecy of AIPAC is the reason why we've seen more liberal lobbying efforts from those like J Street. The criticisms of Likud and AIPAC are shared by many liberal Israelis, and American Jews, themselves.

So why can't Omar echo these criticisms? Especially this last so-called gaffe, where she merely pointed out the inconsistency of being able to criticize virtually every other powerful lobby in DC - petro, pharma, NRA, telecom, finance - but AIPAC cannot be criticized because it involves both Jews and money and therefore reinforces Shylock tropes. The problem with this is that, occassionally, there are some Jews who are actually corrupt. Interestingly, Bernie Madoff had also claimed antisemitism as the motive when the SEC first began looking into his books in the early 2000s, and it may have been effective in delaying his downfall.

These charges against Omar may have carried some weight if she were equally protective of her "side" and equally inclined to claim Islamophobia over criticisms levied at the most powerful Muslim influence in Washington, except that she not only has not done this but has actively taken part in that criticism.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:11 pm

And, I guess some congrats to Yarn, as it appears that the "infanticde agenda" has now become a sanctified "fact" in right-wing media despite the zero evidence behind it. I think we're about a month away from Fox News airing ads for the QAnon book.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:02 pm

Jinnistan wrote:And, I guess some congrats to Yarn, as it appears that the "infanticde agenda" has now become a sanctified "fact" in right-wing media despite the zero evidence behind it. I think we're about a month away from Fox News airing ads for the QAnon book.
I don't think we have an "infanticide agenda". What we have is an "absolute right to abort" agenda. The problem is that the ideological drift of this agenda falls into objections of Professor Singer.

My contention was that Northam got screwed after misspeaking on Tran's legislation, adding more unfavourable attention on the abortion issue. Hence, when the moment came that it could be reframed as a race issue his "friends" seized upon it and the whole party turned on him. The same patter follows The March for Life controversy, which focuses attention on the abortion issue. The re-framing a la the Covington kids was that of race. It's just that in the case of Northam, I was gobsmacked that there were so willing so sacrifice the governor of a state to "not let a crisis go to waste." The comedy that has followed in the scandals of his putative replacements reveals that this may have been a hasty error.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:04 pm

Torgo wrote:Just popping in to say that this is the first thing that came to mind.
Very good. Ergill appears to be committed to these five propositions.

1. Personhood begins before birth.

2. Elective abortion through 40 weeks should not be allowed (following from 1).

3. The question of abortion, through 40 weeks, cannot not justifiably be made on the basis of a purely private decision between patient and doctor (because before week 40 there is another patient in the picture--following from 1). Another way of putting this is that, "It is wrong to make the decision to abort before week 40 strictly a matter of "medical ethics" and "private deliberation" rather than law.

4. From 3 (force of law blocking private choice), you stand with those who would, at some points, tell women what they may do with their bodies.

5. You oppose DNC legislation which would lower (because you want "more" restrictions relative to the status quo) standards for "exceptions" for abortion past 20, but definitely28 after weeks.

Feel free to clarify, equivocate, grandstand, and satirize.
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Ergill
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:47 am

Torgo wrote: Just popping in to say that this is the first thing that came to mind.
Haha
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:49 am

Jinnistan wrote: I think it's getting very petty, and borderline explicit in basically telling her that, as a Muslim woman, the topic is simply off-limits for her to talk about. I honestly don't see any other way to interpret the sensitivity here.
Well looks like this all fell apart pretty quick.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by LEAVES » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:50 am

I've got a game:

We all give YARN 5 prepositions to respond to. Who wants to start?
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Ergill
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:39 am

1. Seth Rich died in a botched robbery #pizzagate

2. YARN is a liberal? Neither am I!

3. ? : ? :: Ezra Klein : Breitbart

4. This statement is false.

5. https://www.finalcall.com
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:58 am

LEAVES wrote:I've got a game:

We all give YARN 5 prepositions to respond to. Who wants to start?
Shoot.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:42 am

Ergill wrote: Well looks like this all fell apart pretty quick.
What? Do you mean that Dems are backing off Omar or did they just find a bunch of rocket launchers in her basement?
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:44 am

Melvin Butterworth wrote:My contention was that Northam got screwed after misspeaking on Tran's legislation, adding more unfavourable attention on the abortion issue. Hence, when the moment came that it could be reframed as a race issue his "friends" seized upon it and the whole party turned on him.
Yeah, sorry, still bullshit, thx.

There might be even less evidence for this inside conspiracy theory than the infanticide thing. But at least Alex Jones agrees with you.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:12 am

Jinnistan wrote: What? Do you mean that Dems are backing off Omar or did they just find a bunch of rocket launchers in her basement?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/06/us/p ... ion=Footer

I like that picture.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by LEAVES » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:51 pm

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Shoot.
Oh, come now, if you want something then you know I'm not going to give it to you!

People these days, never knowing how the game is played.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:14 pm

Jinnistan wrote: I think it's getting very petty, and borderline explicit in basically telling her that, as a Muslim woman, the topic is simply off-limits for her to talk about. I honestly don't see any other way to interpret the sensitivity here.
come to think of it, there weren't any symbolic resolutions made by Congress after Charlottesville or the synagogue shooting, right?
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:42 pm

Jinnistan wrote:There might be even less evidence for this inside conspiracy theory than the infanticide thing.


We live post-Assange, post-Snowden, and post-Manning, so the ad hom "conspiracy theory" doesn't really have that much sting anymore.

The non-conspiracy part of this is that the Dems abandoned Northam with a quickness. That's a fact. Everyone was calling for his head after a 35-year-old picture which had been available to the public the whole time was suddenly "excavated" and "exposed." It's not a stretch to think that the old adage "never let a crisis go to waste" isn't just an adage, because the blackface controversy reframed the dialogue about Northam. All of the sudden we weren't talking about an ugly issue, but an obvious and winning issue. Big League Politics exposes him and the party decided not to defend him, a they would now fighting a battle on two fronts of his infanticide narrative of "exactly how it would happen" and have to defend him in a racially charged scandal). By throwing him under the bus, they wound up on the right side of race issue and making noise about this issue alone was an effective way to change the tune. The only conspiracy theory would be to imagine that the picture was leaked by his own side to set the events in motion. This is the least likely of the three, but I wouldn't gasp if it turned out to be true.
Jinnistan wrote:But at least Alex Jones agrees with you.
Alex Jones believes just about everything, so I think we're all in dubious company.

Did you know Hitler was a vegetarian?

NOTE: Alex Jones has it wrong, of course. He believes that the present state legislation legalizes infanticide. Right wingers have quoted Northam uncharitably (hard not to given his bona fides, his claim of knowing what would happen to a certainty, and his detailed narrative of events, LOL), so the message has been warped. As per usual, the left undersells and the right oversells what this legislation involves. This isn't just about a private medical decision, not when we're miles past viability and metrics of personhood that even Ergill vaguely affirms (I leave it to him, of course, to answer those five propositions to mark his position clearly) that we need more restrictions in the status quo and not less--that's the undersell. The oversell is that it's "infanticide now" with the choir of Fox news readers chanting the message to the tune of The Omen. The reality is in between, but ours is still a culture of death. The left is fixated with their right to kill the unborn. The right is fixated with their right to kill anyone else.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:42 pm

How many conspicuous climate realists are there on the Republican side?
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:32 am

Round 2 today was pretty eventful as well.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:59 am

Melvin Butterworth wrote:We live post-Assange, post-Snowden, and post-Manning, so the ad hom "conspiracy theory" doesn't really have that much sting anymore.
It wasn't a pejorative, but a fact. The notion that the Dems took out one of their own governors because he revealed too much about the dawning infanticide agenda is a conspiracy theory. The pejorative part of that post was the part about how you've given zero evidence to back it up.
Melvin Butterworth wrote:The only conspiracy theory would be to imagine that the picture was leaked by his own side to set the events in motion. This is the least likely of the three, but I wouldn't gasp if it turned out to be true.
The most likely theory here is that the photo was released by more conservative interests. And not necessarily in response to his (misconstrued) comments on fetal viability. Perhaps there's more than coincidence that all three of the state's top Dem politicians were simultaneously targeted with information which had already been floating around for those willing to look for it. It seems less to me like an inside job and more about getting Republican succession to the top office in Virginia.
Melvin Butterworth wrote:The reality is in between, but ours is still a culture of death.
Alex Jones appears to believe, to the best that I can discern, that this culture of death has been passed to us from the Aztecs and Nazis and others who apparently have used the potent vital power released during mass murder to demonically invoke interdimensional beings in exchange for powerful technology and global control. This is the root theory behind the secret pedophile rings in DC and Hollywood, the satanic murders of young virile men (everyone from Jesus to Heath Ledger), and the ghastly illuminated rituals enjoyed by portentious names like Rothschild, Rockefeller, Rosenkreuz and whatever other reptillian euro-trash.

I don't believe in any of this shit. I believe in drugs. I believe that rich and powerful people on a fuck-ton of drugs have both had a lot of extraordinary ideas about reality and have had the resources to indulge these fantasies whenever they couldn't get their dicks hard, whether they were the Aztec priests or the Vatican or John Dee or the Nazis or the idle "illuminatti" in modern day showbusiness. Some of them have obviously taken it more seriously than others, and I can't quite tell if Alex Jones needs to take more or less drugs, but something's got to give.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by DaMU » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:54 am

Manafort sentenced to <4 years in prison; people were predicting something closer to 20. Manafort's own counsel requested 5 years. So this was a very good ruling for Manafort. I'm unsure if this is a consequence of the questionable judge behind the ruling, if the judge didn't stress because another ruling is approaching shortly, or because Mueller was able to get something meaningful out of it.

As frustrating as it is, I'm going to remind myself that the President's former campaign manager will be in prison.
NOTE:
The above-written is wholly and solely the perspective of DaMU and should not be taken as an effort to rile, malign, or diminish you, dummo.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:28 am

Jinnistan wrote:It wasn't a pejorative, but a fact. The notion that the Dems took out one of their own governors because he revealed too much about the dawning infanticide agenda is a conspiracy theory. The pejorative part of that post was the part about how you've given zero evidence to back it up.


But I have presented evidence. First, there is the timing of both revelations and the democratic response to the latter. I do believe in coincidences, so this is hardly definitive. Second, there is the striking lack of awareness that their governor had been in that picture. They put him in position to be the executive office of a state (and a swing state, at that). It is entirely possible that they were ignorant of a photo that had been a matter of public record for 35 years, but it doesn't really seem plausible. Both sides have "dirt files" on each other, so vetting candidates is paramount. When weakness is shown, the other side can pounce, and play a card in the game. If the Dems did know about the picture, but only freaked out when it went public, then their response is still disingenuous. If they didn't know, they appear to be negligent in the vetting process. It's not a good look either way. Finally, there is the ancient question, cui bono? How does it benefit Democrats to throw Northam under the bus (regardless of "who" leaked the picture)? The benefit is obvious in that it allows for the changing of the tune, the discourse shifts from defending unpopular legislation to attacking racism (a task that is about as difficult as claiming that ice cream is tasty). Combine these admittedly thin threads together and a cord begins to emerge which at least justifies skepticism. See my prior post. Is it strategically stronger to defend Northam on two fronts (alleged infanticide and racism) or to attack Northam on an issue you "own"?

And if nothing else, political fuckery or not, it is shameful how the Dems abandoned Northam. If the surface reading is correct, then they were negligent of the facts and allowed for no forgiveness for a joke photograph from 35 years ago. We have to stop crucifying people for having had bad taste in decades with different standards of taste. I disagree with the man's politics on this issue, but to end his career over a bad joke is nuts.
J wrote:The most likely theory here is that the photo was released by more conservative interests.


I agree, but this still leaves open the question of whether the DNC already knew that this was a potential bombshell via candidate research, and also whether his so-called friends strategically pivoted to stab him in the back the re-frame the controversy. If they already knew, there are two possibilities. 1. They threw him under the bus solely because of problem of race to save ass. 2. They threw him under the bus for that reason and also to steer the controversy surrounding him into a chorus of everyone decrying his racism.
J wrote:And not necessarily in response to his (misconstrued) comments on fetal viability.


No, this is much less likely. The timing indicates that the "innocent" reading of events is that Northam piqued the interest in internet "journalists" from Big League Politics who decided to see if the could find any dirt.
J wrote:Perhaps there's more than coincidence that all three of the state's top Dem politicians were simultaneously targeted with information which had already been floating around for those willing to look for it. It seems less to me like an inside job and more about getting Republican succession to the top office in Virginia.


So, you have a conspiratorial mind yourself?

If so, they played right into their opponents hands by getting pious about Northam's "sin." Democrats need to stop throwing out the baby with the bathwater (pun not intended). Don't make Franken, for example, fall on his sword.
J wrote:Alex Jones appears to believe, to the best that I can discern, that this culture of death has been passed to us from the Aztecs and Nazis and others who apparently have used the potent vital power released during mass murder to demonically invoke interdimensional beings in exchange for powerful technology and global control.


You're more familiar with Jones than I, it seems. The phrase comes to me by way of the Catholic church (aka the topic that made me persona non-grata on RT when Gorb casually pronounced that Catholics are "child fuckers"). And we are a death culture. We have a death cult, the military, and you'd better thank them for their service. We're puritanical about sex, but comfortable with blood and violence. Thus, full frontal is potentially "iffy" on screen, but head-shotting bad guys with 44 Magnums is just "American awesomeness." We cleared the continent with genocide and ascended to empire by putting soldiers around the globe on close to 1,000 military bases. Our cult of death is not based on ancient aliens, but nationalism and individualism, the belief that we're better than those who stand in our way, and the belief that our individual rights trump collective responsibilities to protect and conserve life.
J wrote:I don't believe in any of this shit.


Do you even think Jones believes it?
J wrote: I can't quite tell if Alex Jones needs to take more or less drugs, but something's got to give.
As another person put it, Alex Jones isn't on cocaine. Alex Jones is cocaine.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:40 am

DaMU wrote:Manafort sentenced to <4 years in prison; people were predicting something closer to 20. Manafort's own counsel requested 5 years. So this was a very good ruling for Manafort. I'm unsure if this is a consequence of the questionable judge behind the ruling, if the judge didn't stress because another ruling is approaching shortly, or because Mueller was able to get something meaningful out of it.

As frustrating as it is, I'm going to remind myself that the President's former campaign manager will be in prison.
On the bright side, Manafort is still looking at being sentenced next week on his conspiracy charges which could add 10-20 years, and I understand that he's also facing imminent charges from SDNY for additional financial crimes.

Still, this Ellis crank is such a mockery of justice. He admitted that the charges, involving some 60 million in ill-gotten untaxed and thoroughly laundered money, were credible, and yet still gave him a sentence comparable to a minor drug offense. White collar, you cucks!
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:59 am

Melvin Butterworth wrote:It is entirely possible that they were ignorant of a photo that had been a matter of public record for 35 years, but it doesn't really seem plausible.
You don't think it's plausible that most voters haven't perused the college yearbooks of their elected officials? I have to admit, I wasn't aware that med schools even had yearbooks. Can you show where the existence of this photo had ever been publicly reported on previously?
Melvin Butterworth wrote:And if nothing else, political fuckery or not, it is shameful how the Dems abandoned Northam.
Alas, his constituency, even the black ones, have not. He appears to have weathered calls for his resignation.
Melvin Butterworth wrote:So, you have a conspiratorial mind yourself?
I'm not going to defend any of these Virginia officials, but when all of these allegations come at once, including two which are 35 years old, and there just happens to be a Republican waiting in the wings for their resignations, I feel a lot more confident in making the educated guess of coordinated attack.
Melvin Butterworth wrote:You're more familiar with Jones than I, it seems.
I watched some clips of his recent Rogan appearance. To be honest, I've always found him to be morbidly entertaining.
Melvin Butterworth wrote:And we are a death culture. We have a death cult, the military, and you'd better thank them for their service. We're puritanical about sex, but comfortable with blood and violence. Thus, full frontal is potentially "iffy" on screen, but head-shotting bad guys with 44 Magnums is just "American awesomeness." We cleared the continent with genocide and ascended to empire by putting soldiers around the globe on close to 1,000 military bases.
My point being that there's nothing really very new about this side of human nature, and certainly nothing uniquely American about it. The entire globe is littered with killing fields and mass graves, along with a lot of vaguely mythical stories of sacrifices, scapegoats and consuming our sins.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:59 am

Jinnistan wrote:You don't think it's plausible that most voters haven't perused the college yearbooks of their elected officials? I have to admit, I wasn't aware that med schools even had yearbooks. Can you show where the existence of this photo had ever been publicly reported on previously?
Voters? No. Investigators? Fact checkers? The people who do the "due diligence" on those who would be crowned with executive power? Yes. You have to be aware of what could "sting" you with any given public figure.
J wrote:He appears to have weathered calls for his resignation.


That's nice, but he should not have been put through the gauntlet.
J wrote:I'm not going to defend any of these Virginia officials, but when all of these allegations come at once, including two which are 35 years old, and there just happens to be a Republican waiting in the wings for their resignations, I feel a lot more confident in making the educated guess of coordinated attack.


Well, we're both agreed that this affair smells funny.
J wrote:My point being that there's nothing really very new about this side of human nature, and certainly nothing uniquely American about it. The entire globe is littered with killing fields and mass graves, along with a lot of vaguely mythical stories of sacrifices, scapegoats and consuming our sins.
Fair enough, but let us not fool our selves into believing ourselves to be an exception. Among contemporary western nations we're noteworthy for being rather blood-lusty (e.g., perpetual wars, homicide rate).
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:40 pm

Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
come to think of it, there weren't any symbolic resolutions made by Congress after Charlottesville or the synagogue shooting, right?
also I just remembered!

yeah, Dems suck.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:55 pm

I posted an article about Ilhan Omar on my Facebook that has attracted the attention of some friends of mine who are Jewish who have invited me into their home for various holidays in the past and are telling me how anti-Semitic she is and now I'm pretty sure they think their friend is a useful idiot for anti-Semites (who will probably dis-invite himself from this year's Passover just to be safe).

I'm not asking for help; I gotta solve my own problems. but oh boy those media folks weren't kidding when they said this is a fraught subject.

I hope Omar really bones up on her anti-Semitic tropes so she doesn't accidentally play herself again. like, I didn't know that "allegiance" was a dog-whistle word until a few days ago. maybe she didn't either? but then I have fewer reasons not to give her the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:23 pm

If I believed she meant it and could make it happen, I might vote for Warren for this reason alone.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/08/politics ... 1552087134
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by LEAVES » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:52 am

Oxnard Montalvo wrote:I posted an article about Ilhan Omar on my Facebook that has attracted the attention of some friends of mine who are Jewish who have invited me into their home for various holidays in the past and are telling me how anti-Semitic she is and now I'm pretty sure they think their friend is a useful idiot for anti-Semites (who will probably dis-invite himself from this year's Passover just to be safe).

I'm not asking for help; I gotta solve my own problems. but oh boy those media folks weren't kidding when they said this is a fraught subject.

I hope Omar really bones up on her anti-Semitic tropes so she doesn't accidentally play herself again. like, I didn't know that "allegiance" was a dog-whistle word until a few days ago. maybe she didn't either? but then I have fewer reasons not to give her the benefit of the doubt.
The New Republic has two separate articles on the front page in defense of Omar. Choose carefully, but it's nice to have a resource to reference.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:45 am

I'm getting the sense that some of their concerns involve Omar's words attracting the support of people who unequivocally want Israel off the map or believe in dark money-Jewish conspiracies. although they also hold the view that Omar is herself a bigot or ignorant. and I'd at least agree that Omar should be more tactful with her statements on Israel. I still hold onto 'condemning Israel =/= condemning Jews as a whole' especially when there is also such strong support for their government among Christians. and not just because they were initially swayed by Jewish money. but obviously I am not Jewish myself so I can't tell someone how they should react to Omar's words.

it's not as if we also don't agree that Israel is an occupation of Palestine, that such status is corrosive to the Jew/Arab relationship, and that Netanyahu is a prick.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:11 pm

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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:40 am

Ergill wrote:Well looks like this all fell apart pretty quick.
:(

Welp, it looks like this Omar scandal isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Almost as if there's some powerful interest involved.

A couple of additional thoughts from me:

The standard charge against Omar is her claim that AIPAC works to "push for allegiance to a foreign country" as part of their lobbying effort. This has been described as invoking the "dual loyalty" stereotype, more precisely the age-old suspicion that Jews were not sufficiently loyal to their host lands in the diaspora (not to even consider other less generous Talmudic interpretations). The problem with this charge is that American Jews are not the target of AIPAC messaging, and therefore cannot be those being pushed into allegience. Per the WaPo article above, AIPAC's lobbying is intended to sway the American goyim, "to make Israeli realities and priorities palatable to Americans", ie non-Jewish Americans. Indeed, Omar used herself, a non-Jew, as an example for someone whose patriotism would be questioned for criticizing Israeli policy. It is a political effort to quash dissent for Israeli policies, regardless of the legitimacy of those policies ("the more disturbing Israeli behavior was, the more Israel needed their ardent advocacy"), and it quashes, at the very least the perception, of "Jewish dissent" as well, working to "construct a united front" and wielding this "consensus" as a "key to its political influence".

It's a poor, or dishonest, reading of Omar's statements to infer that the "allegience" she was describing referred to Jews themselves, and quite a stretch to make a parallel to the more classic suspision of Jewish (Judas) disloyalty. In fact, she's saying that American Jews themselves may be unfairly considered disloyal for criticizing Israeli policy, which is the opposite of the trope.

A tangential issue: both Texas and Florida have recently banned any state business with AirBnB citing prohibitions against companies which engage with the BDS movement. The problem (other than the entire ethical and constitutional issue of prohibiting or mandating boycotts in the first place) is that AirBnB maintains a substantial number of residences in Israel, so they are clearly not boycotting the state. Instead, they've chosen to remove their business from the occupied territories, which are still illegal under international law. Now, I myself do not subscribe to the concept of collective punishment, so I don't support the BDS movement writ large. However I can find no objection on principle in boycotting these illegally occupied territories with an exploited, disenfranchised workforce. The issue itself is highly contentious among Israelis themselves, so I don't feel any need to pretend that this is some kind of anti-semitic impulse. Actions such as these recent laws, basically threatening any company from taking a principled stand on an illegal occupation, is exactly what Omar was referring to - the coersion to look the other way. And the fact that she was precisely labeled a "vile", "hate-filled" anti-semite for the "slur" for raising the issue (and, who knows, probably, you know, the fact that she's Muslim) does very little to diminish her point. And that is going to only make things worse for Israel among those who may entertain such suspicions.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:32 am

hey I was just thinking, don't Muslims get the duel loyalty thing thrown at them, like, a lot? though not allegiance towards any one country but Islam itself.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:02 am

Jinnistan wrote: :(

Welp, it looks like this Omar scandal isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Almost as if there's some powerful interest involved.
I'm afraid to look.
Jinnistan wrote: It is a political effort to quash dissent for Israeli policies, regardless of the legitimacy of those policies ("the more disturbing Israeli behavior was, the more Israel needed their ardent advocacy"), and it quashes, at the very least the perception, of "Jewish dissent" as well, working to "construct a united front" and wielding this "consensus" as a "key to its political influence".
Agreed. I'm sympathetic to people who take exception to the way she's put her criticisms, but I think the reaction has far outweighed the gaffe. People have rightly pushed back at the double-standard leveled against her, and I'd say this veers much more into the "antisemitism as cudgel" than genuine antisemitism folder. This is a far throw from Tamika Mallory allegedly claiming that the Jews fueled the slave trade.
Jinnistan wrote: Now, I myself do not subscribe to the concept of collective punishment, so I don't support the BDS movement writ large. However I can find no objection on principle in boycotting these illegally occupied territories with an exploited, disenfranchised workforce.
So far as I can tell, she's not far off from this. She's been reluctant to embrace BDS, maybe more because she thinks it could be an impediment to a two-state solution, but she rejects attempts to render the movement illegal. I can't knock her.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:14 am

Oxnard Montalvo wrote:hey I was just thinking, don't Muslims get the duel loyalty thing thrown at them, like, a lot? though not allegiance towards any one country but Islam itself.
It's been a common thing for immigrants, but unfortunately, much more common for Jews in cultures that've felt the touch of European civilization. I can't claim to know why they in particular have received so much attention, but a good deal of it at this point is simple tradition. The grooves have been worn out and the cliches have been worked into the bloodstream. I will say that that however much as there's been a rise in antisemitism, I'd wager that Muslims are much more vulnerable and our culture much less sensitive to bigotry against them.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:51 am

assuming that Omar is unequivocally an antisemite (because of our relationship with Israel and Israel's relationship with Palestine), is it worth drawing a distinction between that kind of antisemitism and the kind of antisemitism that animates people like the synagogue shooter? or not 'cause the net impact on Jews is pretty much the same. I only ask because Omar has been getting tons of praise from people like David Duke. though my intuition is that Omar would not respond in kind given their many other political differences.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:57 pm

Oxnard Montalvo wrote:assuming that Omar is unequivocally an antisemite (because of our relationship with Israel and Israel's relationship with Palestine), is it worth drawing a distinction between that kind of antisemitism and the kind of antisemitism that animates people like the synagogue shooter? or not 'cause the net impact on Jews is pretty much the same. I only ask because Omar has been getting tons of praise from people like David Duke. though my intuition is that Omar would not respond in kind given their many other political differences.
I don't think it's much of a distinction if it reaches the level of antisemitism proper. It's true that Israel is a beacon for modern antisemitism and that some people try to wear the beard of "just being anti-Zionist" while donning all the usual arguments of the antisemite. I'm not convinced Omar reaches that bar though. I think she just spoke poorly and she unintentionally evoked antisemitic associations, even among people sympathetic to her criticisms of Israel. It's not simply a matter of making people uncomfortable, like she says, but needlessly distracting from her substantive points and from all the other shit we should be talking about right now. But the Right and the media thirst for a "Democrats in disarray" story and this has all the hallmarks of a Veep-level controversy based less in underlying political realities than in projections, spin, counter-spin, a tabloid news-cycle and desperate attempts to manipulate a sluggish, easily distracted public. The article you posted did a much better job than most of putting the tensions, strategies and world-views at stake here.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Stu » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:59 am

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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:16 am

David Frum wrote:This massive new wave of immigration has brought many benefits to the United States. Of the 122 Americans who won a Nobel Prize from 2000 to 2018, 34 were immigrants. Four of the five Americans who won Nobels in 2016 were born outside the country. Of the 41 Fortune 500 companies created since 1985, eight had an immigrant founder. In many ways, the United States is a stronger, richer, and more dynamic country because of international migration. I am an immigrant myself. Born in Canada, I attended college in the United States, became a permanent resident, raised a family here, and was naturalized in 2007.
:roll:
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