A Corrierino Awareness Thread

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Jinnistan
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:03 am

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 7:56 pm
A lot depends on how (and if) the economy starts ramping back up, but our masters have to know that kicking tens of millions of people on the street would be disaster. If they were to let this happen, this would seem to me like an end game sort of move before everything collapses. I have a hard time thinking that they wouldn't just do a faux-jubilee (temporary forgiveness in exchange for even more debt) to keep a lid on it. That stated, however, I thought that the election of Trump in '16 was impossible.
I'm going to sit out the prediction game and focus on what I'd like to see happen. In this case, it would be that enough people have seen quite clearly just how inadequete the Republican policy priorities have been in the face of a true national crisis and vote accordingly in insurmountable proportion.

On the bright side, it's promising that Mitch and Lal' Lindsay are practically begging judges to step down so that they can be safely replaced before the election. Sounds like confidence.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:20 am

Ganesh wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 8:21 pm
So, so disappointed in these folks. I was a big fan of Krystal Ball during the primary. But they turned their back on Bernie when he endorsed Biden. I saw a left wing host berating Noam CHOMSKY for acknowledging the importance of voting for Biden. And worse yet, is the apologetics they offer for Trump, mostly based on his disrespect and disregard for civility. Again, I understand the frustration with Biden, he's less than ideal and clearly flawed, but my god if one can't see the benefits of having him in office instead of a sociopathic fascist toddler then I don't know what to tell ya.
Even before Bernie dropped out, the hostility towards Warren and any semblence of party coalition was appalling. Of course they were bound to turn on Bernie as well, which, I believe, they would be doing right now even if he had won the nomination because he would have had to pivot to a moderate stance eventually. I saw Paul Krugman accused of being a "centrist". It's a malignant myopia. The Hill is an odd case, as that publication was solidly right-of-center for years, and quite suddenly switched to 'Bernie or Bust' last year. It's easy to assume nefarious motives here, splintering the Dem vote to ensure a Trump victory. Of course I can't prove that, but Enjeti did come straight from Tucker Carlson's Daily Caller, and, gee, wasn't even Carlson briefly acting like a Bernie bro?

But it's also seeing people like Taibbi, Dore and Greenwald embracing the Obamagate conspiracy, all while vociferously denying Russiagate, Ukrainegate, etc, which is more telling. Like Tulsi "I want peace" Gabbard urging Trump to decimate Idlib (which Putin has now accomplished, like Aleppo, etc). Seems like a disconnect there. I saw Taibbi on Joe Rogan praising Trump's crowd sizes. In 2020, they all want to talk about Obama's problems. I see. Obama did fail to veto the Magnitsky Act, so what the hell do I know?
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by DaMU » Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:05 pm

Ergill wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:46 am
Liz was my choice for president. If he wants to choose a black woman, Stacey Abrams is the real deal. Not Harris, not Harris.

I hear police helicopters over me now, as I have intermittently all weekend. Fuck all this.
Agree on Abrams over Harris, fo sho.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Smoke Bomb » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:57 pm



Ergil, permission to officially file this amongst my reasons for preferring Sanders approach to criminal justice reform?
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:25 pm

Smoke Bomb wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:57 pm


Ergil, permission to officially file this amongst my reasons for preferring Sanders approach to criminal justice reform?
Be disgusted, but what section of their proposals for justice reform is comprised of "Gaffey Old Man Shittily Spitballing"?
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:36 pm

I also have no issue with you preferring Sanders on any number of levels. You prefer his CJR proposals more? OK. But they aren't so different that we need to let the world burn.

Cops and National Guard murdered a man in my city last night. David McAtee. He was outside his place of business. He was a chef. He volunteered his services at a local homeless sheltered. He fed people in his community and he fed cops. He was unarmed. He was black.

We have a swollen gland turning off the lights, absconding to his bunker, and demanding an authoritarian crackdown on protesters. And then we have a man actually speaking with protesters and affirming their cause unequivocally, a guy who will probably have a freer hand on the issue than his ex-boss who felt overly cautious on racial issues due to his own race. Whose lives do we want to bet on to nurture our own fatalism?
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Smoke Bomb » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:35 pm

Ergill wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:25 pm
Be disgusted, but what section of their proposals for justice reform is comprised of "Gaffey Old Man Shittily Spitballing"?
Oh I’m just mortified this is a thing that was actually spoken by a human being and am trying to use offbeat humor to cope with the existential dread and horror it fills me with.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Smoke Bomb » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:40 pm

Without a doubt Biden would be better in reigns, but I’m far past of the point of believing his four years would see enough meaningful change happen that won’t be insistently undone when Tom (Unleash the 101st Airborne on citizens) runs in 2024 with Crenshaw and wins. :/
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Smoke Bomb » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:57 pm

Essentially, I’ll never argue that Biden isn’t a worse option than Trump, because I possess an adequate level of sentience, but still see that replacing Trump with Biden is like putting a Paw Patrol bandage on a wound that disemboweled you.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by crumbsroom » Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:31 pm

Smoke Bomb wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:57 pm
Essentially, I’ll never argue that Biden isn’t a worse option than Trump, because I possess an adequate level of sentience, but still see that replacing Trump with Biden is like putting a Paw Patrol bandage on a wound that disemboweled you.
I imagine many of us feel similarly. I do.

I'm not great fan of Biden. And Obama had leagues of problems.

I simply worry over the ease there is to give the appearance of equivalency between the options we have here. While Biden is far from above criticism, when we get on board the frustrations over his verbal gaffes and less than ideal policy history, while Trump is busy doing Mach 10 Trump, it gives the appearance that the daylight isn't enormous between these two.

And there are galaxies between these two as I am sure you are more than aware of. And the near future is going to be measured in decidedly less than galaxies.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Smoke Bomb » Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:45 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:31 pm
I imagine many of us feel similarly. I do.

I'm not great fan of Biden. And Obama had leagues of problems.

I simply worry over the ease there is to give the appearance of equivalency between the options we have here. While Biden is far from above criticism, when we get on board the frustrations over his verbal gaffes and less than ideal policy history, while Trump is busy doing Mach 10 Trump, it gives the appearance that the daylight isn't enormous between these two.

And there are galaxies between these two as I am sure you are more than aware of. And the near future is going to be measured in decidedly less than galaxies.
I’d quantify the distant between them as say Earth to Saturn over galaxies, but more or less, yeah.

My macro concern is Biden being seemingly blissfully unaware that the current Republican Party isn’t the one he spent decades working alongside and attempts at bipartisanship drive the Democrats further to being what a sane Republican would’ve been in less utterly terrifying times.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by crumbsroom » Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:55 pm

Smoke Bomb wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:45 pm
I’d quantify the distant between them as say Earth to Saturn over galaxies, but more or less, yeah.
I don't know, man. Galaxies seemed more than fair.

Trump doesn't even resemble a human being, remember. Is considerably more dangerous. Has complete loyalty from a third of the country. Represents a party that gives zero fucks anymore.

Trump is as dangerous a human being in history as any I can remotely think of. Everything else, politically, just feels like semantics at this point.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:52 pm

You have Obama.

You have Biden.

And you have Trump.

Yeah. "Galaxies".
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by DaMU » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:53 pm

Given that Trump seems to be spiraling down a martial law fascist takeover, I'm starting to think we won't even have to worry about this pesky election, thank goodness. Phew.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Slentert » Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:32 pm

It has been fascinating to learn these past few weeks how many people will voluntarily give away their rights and allow the police to injure and kill innocent people just to protect the status quo.

EDIT: I'm aware this has been going on for longer than just the past few weeks, but from my perspective, which is obviously a white and very privileged one, the defense has quickly turned from "Just a few bad apples" to "They can do whatever they want!".
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:12 pm

The funny thing about the "bad apples" meme is how badly those who use it misunderstand the entire point of the aphorism: "It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the bunch." Meaning, obvious to any reader older than four, that any amount of bad apples should be intolerable. Yet, it is all too frequently used to deflect the need to get rid of them, "You'll always have a few bad apples", etc. And then wonder why they're so spoiled.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by MrCarmady » Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:22 pm

I find police brutality absolutely abhorrent and it's not an America-specific problem, but I do wonder whether the lockdown paradoxically made the protests more attractive to go to in Europe - we've all been cooped up for so long and with no gigs, no football matches, and no clubs, political action is the only outlet for being in a crowd and feeling like you belong to something that's widely available at the moment. I hope the protests are successful and they lead to something, otherwise we're just gonna see rises in infection rates for no reason at all.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:52 pm

Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:12 pm
The funny thing about the "bad apples" meme is how badly those who use it misunderstand the entire point of the aphorism: "It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the bunch." Meaning, obvious to any reader older than four, that any amount of bad apples should be intolerable. Yet, it is all too frequently used to deflect the need to get rid of them, "You'll always have a few bad apples", etc. And then wonder why they're so spoiled.
It is also funny how protesters are unironically defended on grounds that their group cannot be judged on the grounds of their own bad actors (e.g., rioters and looters).

It is also funny that people who take the original reading of "spoils the whole bunch" are seriously arguing "all cops are bastards" (i.e., "ACAB") as if all cops were literally Nazis.

There is not a lot nuance on either side.

Do we need significant police reform? Absolutely. Are all cops bastards? Absolutely not. Should we just get rid of police departments in favor of citizen safety patrols? Hell no.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:47 pm

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:52 pm
It is also funny how protesters are unironically defended on grounds that their group cannot be judged on the grounds of their own bad actors (e.g., rioters and looters).
The problem is with who's designating "their group". In my example, I am not forcing adjacent interests into occupying the same stance, but highlighting the explicit defense that some have for tolerating some bad apples. In yours, you're conflating the protesters with "rioters & looters", despite quite a bit of documented evidence that most of the latter are not participants in the formal organized protests, many have been called out by the protesters for trying to delegitimize (intentionally or not) the protest, and with some considerable evidence that those agitators are not who they say they are.


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:52 pm
It is also funny that people who take the original reading of "spoils the whole bunch" are seriously arguing "all cops are bastards" (i.e., "ACAB") as if all cops were literally Nazis.
Curb the hyperbole for a second and consider the possibility that maybe calling for the bad apples to be culled takes a more optimistic view of "the bunch" than those who are excusing the spoilage. The "serious argument" is that bad cops should not be tolerated.


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:52 pm
There is not a lot nuance on either side.
There's never any nuance in an either/or mentality.


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:52 pm
Do we need significant police reform? Absolutely. Are all cops bastards? Absolutely not. Should we just get rid of police departments in favor of citizen safety patrols? Hell no.
OK, Melvin. If you want some nuance and can knock off the "all"s and "every"s and "absolutely"s for a second, I can go into some detail relating to this issue as it's been a bit of a discussion today.

I don't generally agree with the arbitrary "defund the police" mantra. It's pretty dumb on its face, dull as a blunt hammer. However, if I were to paraphrase Alicia Garza, I would agree that it's necessary to reprioritize the role of the police, and even in some ways that would inevitably involve some funding cuts, or at least redirecting them. To get back to the mandate to "protect and serve", and away from their role as revenue-generators for the state, requires a great deal of implementing a new regime of training programs, which cost money that defunding would not provide. The egregious accumulation of military surplus gear actually is cheaper than many would imagine, but a more focused, targeted cut to these post-911 programs would be far more beneficial than arbitrary cuts across the board. And, again, the establishment of strict standards under which such gear is used will require not only training but most likely federal monitoring.

That last issue is why I've been disappointed that re-establishing consent decrees has not become a focus for reform. The Radley Balko piece I linked upthread is a very convincing case for why they're both necessary and effective. There are those on the left who are full-bore law enforcement abolitionists, but, obviously, I find that extreme to be as counterproductively unrealistic as any other extreme. I wish human beings did not have such a marginal compulsion to corruption and predatory arrogance as is evident in our social nature, but here we are in 2020. "Bad apples" are not a socially proprietary fruit, and society deserves some form of shield from their abuse, ie no immunity should be qualified. Rather than having to choose between "police" and "citizen safety patrols", I'd argue that the policing establishment in place needs to dramatically reform its priorities to value citizen safety above all else.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:02 pm

Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:47 pm
The problem is with who's designating "their group".


Well, if one bad apple spoils the whole bunch, then many riotous protesters burning down and looting buildings is a bit of a bitch, ain't it? That's kind of the point.
Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:47 pm
In my example, I am not forcing adjacent interets into occupying the same stance, but highlighting the explicit defenders of tolerating some bad apples.


And I am pointing out how there are dangers at either end of our conceptualization. We either wind up with "No True Scotsman" or damming a whole group on the basis of the actions of the few, or the one.
Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:47 pm
In yours, you're conflating the prostesters with "rioters & looters",
It is possible to be both. You can be a cop and be a cunt. You can be a protester and be a cunt. You're tilting in the direction of "No True Scotsman."
Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:47 pm
despite quite a bit of documented evidence that most of the latter are not participants in the formal organized protests


New media have been desperately reciting the incantation of "largely peaceful protesters."

I can accept that, if we can accept that cops are not all bastards or Nazis, etc.
Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:47 pm
Curb the hyperoloe for a second


That wasn't hyperbole. At least, it is not one of my making. ACAB widespread and popular right now.

https://heavy.com/news/2020/05/acab-1312-meaning/
Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:47 pm
The "serious argument" is that bad cops should not be tolerated rather than merely minimized.


There is a serious argument to do much more.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/minne ... r-BB15272H
Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:47 pm
There's never any nuance in an either/or mentality.


And now we're in the grips of an enthusiasm which demands that we take sides.

Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:47 pm
OK, Melvin. If you want some nuance and can knock off the "all"s and "every"s and "absolutely"s for a second, I can go into some detail relating to this issuee as it's been a bit of a discussion today.


As I said, the absolute is not of my construction. Calling for "burning it all down" is rather absolute.

Image

That is, until that absolute reaches the gates of your own community.

Image
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:39 pm

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:02 pm
That's kind of the point.
Not at all if you read the whole paragraph before responding.


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:02 pm
New media have been desperately reciting the incantation of "largely peaceful protesters."
So you're just going to skip all of links, huh? Hey, they must not exist if you don't read them.


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:02 pm
I can accept that, if we can accept that cops are not all bastards or Nazis, etc.
Well, I never made the claim, kemosabe.


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:02 pm
ACAB widespread and popular right now.

https://heavy.com/news/2020/05/acab-1312-meaning/
"According to the Anti-Defamation League, the slogan has been long associated with skinhead culture."

Hm. Gotcha. Good thing you didn't read those links!


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:02 pm
There is a serious argument to do much more.
I think they're overreacting, and feeling the heat of the moment. I still think it's a dumb way to handle a complicated problem.


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:02 pm
And now we're in the grips of an enthusiasm which demands that we take sides.
Is this a German leather thing?


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:02 pm
As I said, the absolute is not of my construction. Calling for "burning it all down" is rather absolute.
I'd rather not listen to any of the absolutists, but what I remain committed to are the points I already laid out. I take solace knowing that most of the protestors are not for "burning it all down". Of the "bad apples" that are taking advantage of the protests (for whatever motive), they should be called out, like the various times during these protests that agitators have been called out and restrained by the good apples. They understand that these bad apples will spoil the entire protest bunch. If only police departments had so much integrity.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:03 pm

Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:39 pm
"According to the Anti-Defamation League, the slogan has been long associated with skinhead culture."


The phrase is being used widely.

To obsess of the origins of a word or phrase as opposed to popular current usage is to commit the etymological fallacy.
Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:39 pm
I think they're overreacting, and feeling the heat of the moment. I still think it's a dumb way to handle a complicated problem.


I think that you're being largely reasonable, but we're not living in reasonable times and people are not being entirely reasonable. Let's not pretend that everyone is being as reasonable are yourself.
Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:39 pm
I'd rather not listen to any of the absolutists, but what I remain committed to are the points I already laid out. I take solace knowing that most of the protestors are not for "burning it all down". Of the "bad apples" that are taking advantage of the protests (for whatever motive), they should be called out, like the various times during these protests that agitators have been called out and restrained by the good apples. They understand that these bad apples will spoil the entire protest bunch. If only police departments had so much integrity.
They had a chance to get their shit together. They didn't. The weird thing about American policing is how damned oppressive and dysfunctional is has been, by design, for many decades. It's not really a dangerous job (it's not even in the top 10 for dangerous jobs), but cops are so trigger happy that you'd think that they're engaged in urban warfare on foreign soil.

We're in a dangerous spiral now. A lot of right wingers (especially, Trumpers) wants to "get tough" in response to decades of too much "get tough." The media is focusing (lopsidedly) on anecdotes that show the cops being bad (rioters have killed and maimed and destroyed over these last two weeks too) which is getting people pissed and wanting MORE muscular opposition. And we also have would-be revolutionaries (left-wing and right-wing) in the mix who would love for this to turn into a civil war and who are attempting to push protests into insurrection. This is a bad sort of synergy.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:55 pm

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:03 pm
To obsess of the origins of a word or phrase as opposed to popular current usage is to commit the etymological fallacy.
I was more interested in the semantic proximity of some other words I may have linked to.


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:03 pm
Let's not pretend that everyone is being as reasonable are yourself.
I'm saying that there's some unreasonable people who need to calm the fuck down, sure.


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:03 pm
They had a chance to get their shit together. They didn't.
Are you talking about the police here or the protesters? Or the infiltrators?


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:03 pm
It's not really a dangerous job (it's not even in the top 10 for dangerous jobs), but cops are so trigger happy that you'd think that they're engaged in urban warfare on foreign soil.
One of the better arguments that I've seen against defunding the police is that the relative low-pay for most uniformed officers leads to a kind of lowest common denominator skills set. Couldn't make the Corps' cut types.


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:03 pm
A lot of right wingers (especially, Trumpers) wants to "get tough" in response to decades of too much "get tough."
Or, like Ringo said, all they wanna do is boogaloo.


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:03 pm
And we also have would-be revolutionaries (left-wing and right-wing) in the mix who would love for this to turn into a civil war and who are attempting to push protests into insurrection.
Kinda like....what's a synonym for "accelerationists"?


Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:03 pm
This is a bad sort of synergy.
Oh, and by the way, still a lot of unpaid bills, disproportiontely in the neighborhoods most affected by the protests, no help on the Senate horizon, and coronavirus rates are already upticking a solid week before we'll ever know the full scale of infections from the protests, and also, COVID causes lasting vascular damage, kidney-scarring and cognitive impairment from clotting and 'mini-strokes', but on the bright side Trump's hosting a new combat game show called Comitatis By The Posse on QanonUibi and, oh I hope I haven't forgot to mention that white supremacists are actively trying to instigate a race war. You know who sucks, though? Obama. Thanks a lot, tough guy.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:33 am

Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:55 pm
Oh, and by the way, still a lot of unpaid bills, disproportiontely in the neighborhoods most affected by the protests, no help on the Senate horizon, and coronavirus rates are already upticking a solid week before we'll ever know the full scale of infections from the protests, and also, COVID causes lasting vascular damage, kidney-scarring and cognitive impairment from clotting and 'mini-strokes', but on the bright side Trump's hosting a new combat game show called Comitatis By The Posse on QanonUibi and, oh I hope I haven't forgot to mention that white supremacists are actively trying to instigate a race war. You know who sucks, though? Obama. Thanks a lot, tough guy.
I feel like we're in that scene from Pitch Black.
All right. Now how long can this last? A few hours? A day, tops?

I had the impression from the model... ...the two planets were moving as one... ...and there would be a lasting darkness.
The protests, at least, will give us a natural experiment and provide valuable epidemiological data.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Jinnistan » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:33 am

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:33 am
The protests, at least, will give us a natural experiment and provide valuable epidemiological data.
Try not to choke on the worm from the testtube, Dr, Josef.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:15 am

Jinnistan wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:33 am
Try not to choke on the worm from the testtube, Dr, Josef.
Those who want to exercise their right to freely associate in protest of police violence have a claim that should be respected. We can't keep things locked down forever. That stated, we also need data. I would rather see what happens when people voluntarily act than to force people to take a risk.

If people want to go to church, let them. If they want to protest, let them. If they want to open their businesses, let them. And all the moreso, if they abide by social distancing guidelines or make a good faith effort to do so.

As I recall, Dr. Mengele's subjects were not quite so willing, but I understand that you still can't resist cheap shots and cheap smears, "J".
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:05 pm

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:52 pm
It is also funny how protesters are unironically defended on grounds that their group cannot be judged on the grounds of their own bad actors (e.g., rioters and looters).
Protestors aren't part of a cohesive, identifiable organization. Police are. Protestors are a grab-bag of people there for any number of reasons with a small handful of organizers trying to elicit spontaneous, populist demonstrations. There's no system for systemic rot to seep into. If there are opportunists, thrill-seekers, and saboteurs creating noise around their periphery that doesn't say as much about them as the numerous acts of police brutality we're seeing day in and day out say about the police as an institution and the legal, bureaucratic, and cultural norms that foster that brutality. Rot isn't a cute metaphor here we can play around with. It's blood in the streets, the bulk of it spilled by those supposedly designated to serve and protect us.
Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:52 pm
It is also funny that people who take the original reading of "spoils the whole bunch" are seriously arguing "all cops are bastards" (i.e., "ACAB") as if all cops were literally Nazis.
Maybe our fruit-talk should include people who can't pick anything but low-hanging fruit.
Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:52 pm
There is not a lot nuance on either side.
There will never be any argument taking place on a significant scale that doesn't have people torching nuance. A faux-objective, both-sides scolding of all the Unnuanced may feel great, but it's hardly the right level of resolution. Yes, we can squint our eyes and make out that there are roughly two sides and we can generically pick out positions on each that lack nuance. But that's less lifting up the most substantive, best articulated judgment of the situation than it is a canned gesture.
Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:52 pm
Do we need significant police reform? Absolutely. Are all cops bastards? Absolutely not. Should we just get rid of police departments in favor of citizen safety patrols? Hell no.
OK. Now what?
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:56 am

🤔

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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:39 am

Ergill wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:05 pm
OK. Now what?
Now you have 5 Propositions to affirm or deny.

1. Personhood begins before birth. Yes or No?

2. Elective abortion through 40 weeks should not be allowed. Yes or No?

3. The question of abortion, through 40 weeks, cannot not justifiably be made on the basis of a purely private decision between patient and doctor (i.e., whether or not to euthanize a two-year-old child ought not be treated as a purely private decision between patient and doctor). Yes or No?

4. You stand with those who would, at some point during pregnancy, tell women what they may do with their bodies. Yes or No?

5. You oppose DNC legislation which would lower (because you want "more" restrictions relative to the status quo) standards for "exceptions" for abortion past 20, but definitely after 28 weeks. Yes or No?
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:48 am

If Ergill doesn't respond to those propositions, are you going to interact with him any more on this site?
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:11 am

Popcorn Reviews wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:48 am
If Ergill doesn't respond to those propositions, are you going to interact with him any more on this site?
Only to the extend that I shall re-extend the invitation to answer those propositions once or twice a year.

The silence, in itself, is all the answer that I need.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:19 am

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:11 am
Only to the extend that I shall re-extend the invitation to answer those propositions once or twice a year.

The silence, in itself, is all the answer that I need.
How long are you going to keep this up for?
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:22 am

Popcorn Reviews wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:19 am
How long are you going to keep this up for?
That's up to Sanchez.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:27 am

You should probably write it on your calendar for next year so you don't forget.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by MrCarmady » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:46 am

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:39 am
Now you have 5 Propositions to affirm or deny.

1. Personhood begins before birth. Yes or No?

2. Elective abortion through 40 weeks should not be allowed. Yes or No?

3. The question of abortion, through 40 weeks, cannot not justifiably be made on the basis of a purely private decision between patient and doctor (i.e., whether or not to euthanize a two-year-old child ought not be treated as a purely private decision between patient and doctor). Yes or No?

4. You stand with those who would, at some point during pregnancy, tell women what they may do with their bodies. Yes or No?

5. You oppose DNC legislation which would lower (because you want "more" restrictions relative to the status quo) standards for "exceptions" for abortion past 20, but definitely after 28 weeks. Yes or No?
I'll have a go. No. No. No. No. No. Hey, that was easy!
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:09 am

MrCarmady wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:46 am
I'll have a go. No. No. No. No. No. Hey, that was easy!
So, what is the difference between a baby 5 five minutes before birth as opposed to 5 minutes after? Is it that 5 minutes later we have a person with rights?
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by MrCarmady » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:20 am

The obvious distinction is bodily autonomy. If you start telling women what they can or can't do with organic matter that's growing inside them, you're gonna have to start opening criminal investigations for miscarriages. Third trimester abortions are exceedingly rare, anyway, and overwhelmingly performed when there's risk to the mother's life or some evidence of severe disability in the child.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:59 am

MrCarmady wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:20 am
The obvious distinction is bodily autonomy.


Do you think that a parent with a newborn baby has autonomy in any substantive sense of the word? Why not kill newborns for violating the autonomy of the parents upon whom they crucially depend for warmth, diaper changes, feeding, 24/7 security, bedding, emotional contact, etc.?

The autonomy of your parent(s) does not define your status as a person. And if you have a person (and not just a fetus or a birthus), you have a competing set of rights (including a right to life) that must be addressed.
MrCarmady wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:20 am
If you start telling women what they can or can't do with organic matter that's growing inside them, you're gonna have to start opening criminal investigations for miscarriages.


And if you start telling parents that they can't kill newborns, you're going to have occasionally investigate a suspicious crib death. So what?

Imagine saying this about any other demographic. Hell, imagine if this were our logic with animal rights - "Well, if we start telling people what they can do with their pets, then we're going to start having to open investigations into animal abuse..."
MrCarmady wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:20 am
Third trimester abortions are exceedingly rare,


When the song "Strange Fruit" was released, lynchings in America were exceedingly rare. So what? The rarity of an act does not speak to its permissibility.
MrCarmady wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:20 am
overwhelmingly performed when there's risk to the mother's life or some evidence of severe disability in the child.
So what? That women overwhelmingly do not elect to kill unborn persons without cause, does not answer the question of whether women should have a plenary right to kill without qualification and whether (as has happened in New York) it is proper to have legally depersoned the unborn to free people of legal consequences.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:19 pm

Popcorn Reviews wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:48 am
If Ergill doesn't respond to those propositions, are you going to interact with him any more on this site?
I dunno, this is kind of a win-win for me. I can call him out and not have to deal with the hopelessly bullshit responses. I'd already responded to these in our conversation last year and he proved incapable of honestly assessing my arguments on even the most basic level. He's the spam-bot of arguers.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:38 pm

One who has already answered such questions should have not trouble answering them again.

I still mark you a coward.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Torgo » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:55 pm

Ergill, gosh, I am so sorry that you lost. I hope you recover from this terrible, terrible setback. We've got your back, buddy. Tomorrow is another day.
Last Great Movie Seen
13th (DuVernay, 2016)
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:09 pm

Torgo wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:55 pm
Ergill, gosh, I am so sorry that you lost. I hope you recover from this terrible, terrible setback. We've got your back, buddy. Tomorrow is another day.
Keep me in your prayers.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by MrCarmady » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:13 pm

Ergill wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:19 pm
I dunno, this is kind of a win-win for me.
Torgo wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:55 pm
Ergill, gosh, I am so sorry that you lost.
How???
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:19 pm

MrCarmady wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:13 pm
How???
Sometimes you have to lose to win. I mean, look at Melvin. That's winning? Yikes.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:03 pm

Here's where the original arguments occurred fwiw:

https://corrierino.com/forum/viewtopic. ... start=2150

https://corrierino.com/forum/viewtopic. ... start=2250

Not sure how much it's worth people's time, as it's long and Melvin takes it into some really crazy places, revealing gross aspects of his psyche. In a timely coincidence, he also segues into anti-BLM screeds and reveals an unhealthy obsession with black murder rates. Winning!
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:11 pm

5 Propositions.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:16 pm

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:11 pm
5 Propositions.
Pizzagate! Answer the question!
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:19 pm

Ergill wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:16 pm
Pizzagate! Answer the question!
bye bye
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by DaMU » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:20 pm

Image
NOTE:
The above-written is wholly and solely the perspective of DaMU and should not be taken as an effort to rile, malign, or diminish you, dummo.
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Re: A Corrierino Awareness Thread

Post by Ergill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:28 pm

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:19 pm
bye bye
It's a year later and the sea lion refuses to take a stance on Pizzagate. The writing is on the wall!
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