Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by crumbsroom » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:09 pm

Torgo wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:50 pm
So, The Return of the Living Dead (1985)...best movie ever made? It's at least the most entertaining.
It's on Amazon Prime if you, like me, made the brainless move of waiting this long to see it.
Hands down best zombie movie ever made.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Rock » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:40 pm

It really is great. And I'll be honest, on my last viewing, I was a little moved. It's impressive to see a horror comedy completely nail the fun side while also respecting the dignity of its characters and give them little grace notes.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Rock » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:48 pm

Takoma1 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:36 pm
I just watched Hereditary and emerged with the entirely unoriginal opinion that it was pretty great.

Also, I discovered that I knew nothing, NOTHING about this film and it was fantastic. Every little twist and turn in the plot was a total surprise to me.

My one quibble--the one thing that pulled me out of the narrative a bit--was the fact that in this world people do not know how to dial 911.

I've had several students with
serious food allergies. It's highly irregular that they are sent anywhere with food without an epipen, and the first thing you learn about a child with a serious allergy is that you always call 911 when there's an incident, even if you've successfully administered an epipen.

And then later when there's the incident in the classroom: I'm sorry, but when a child who is obviously depressed and traumatized has what looks like some combination of a seizure and self-harm, you do not send that person home with dad.
And as an extension of that point: it really bothered me that
Steve would bring Peter home. He so clearly needs in-patient psychiatric help, and yet Steve just brings him on back to a mother who has repeatedly upset and traumatized him. It was maybe the moment in the whole film that I felt most unbelievable.
I read a quote that said that the writer/director wanted to make a film about suffering that "took suffering seriously," and on that front I think that the film succeeds pretty marvelously. The well-realized family dynamics (bolstered by Collette's amazing performance) add a ton of depth to the story.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Apex Predator » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:13 pm

Wooley wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:25 pm
Is Sleepaway Camp 2 actually worth my time?
I hate wasting my time on genuinely bad movies or at least bad movies without an upside.
I found that it split its time between being a followup to the first film and being a goofy comedy. It's passable.

The third film is more or less a goofy comedy. It's skippable.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:29 pm

Takoma1 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:36 pm
I just watched Hereditary and emerged with the entirely unoriginal opinion that it was pretty great.

Also, I discovered that I knew nothing, NOTHING about this film and it was fantastic. Every little twist and turn in the plot was a total surprise to me.

My one quibble--the one thing that pulled me out of the narrative a bit--was the fact that in this world people do not know how to dial 911.

I've had several students with
serious food allergies. It's highly irregular that they are sent anywhere with food without an epipen, and the first thing you learn about a child with a serious allergy is that you always call 911 when there's an incident, even if you've successfully administered an epipen.

And then later when there's the incident in the classroom: I'm sorry, but when a child who is obviously depressed and traumatized has what looks like some combination of a seizure and self-harm, you do not send that person home with dad.
And as an extension of that point: it really bothered me that
Steve would bring Peter home. He so clearly needs in-patient psychiatric help, and yet Steve just brings him on back to a mother who has repeatedly upset and traumatized him. It was maybe the moment in the whole film that I felt most unbelievable.
I read a quote that said that the writer/director wanted to make a film about suffering that "took suffering seriously," and on that front I think that the film succeeds pretty marvelously. The well-realized family dynamics (bolstered by Collette's amazing performance) add a ton of depth to the story.
To address one of your issues...
Charlie is already Paimon and hates his female body. She/He is regularly eating chocolates that appear to have nuts throughout the film and the parents’ seeming refusal to check that or carry an epipen (as well as forcing Charlie to go to the party) all appear to be supernatural manipulations in order to rid himself of her shell.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by crumbsroom » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:36 pm

Rock wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:40 pm
It really is great. And I'll be honest, on my last viewing, I was a little moved. It's impressive to see a horror comedy completely nail the fun side while also respecting the dignity of its characters and give them little grace notes.
Bingo
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:50 pm

Rock wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:40 pm
It really is great. And I'll be honest, on my last viewing, I was a little moved. It's impressive to see a horror comedy completely nail the fun side while also respecting the dignity of its characters and give them little grace notes.
I’d say this also describes Shaun of the Dead.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by DaMU » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:51 pm

Psycho II - B / B-

Surprisingly not-bad. Perkins keeps the movie humming, esp. the dynamic between him and Meg Tilly. I liked that once you drilled down into the story, it was a sort of Frankenstein tale, with certain characters trying to bring Norman the Psycho-Killer back and, of course, having second thoughts once it seems like they might be succeeding. I don't know that the final couple of minutes in the kitchen, with one last mega-reveal, really needed to be in the film. It feels like too much explanation dumped on us after the film's emotionally resolved, and done too quickly. Someone basically says, "But here's what really happened." But, again, Perkins. You don't want him to go back to who he was before and actually feel for his (doomed) efforts to lead something resembling a normal life. Director Richard Franklin has a lot of fun with overhead shots and finding fresh ways to film familiar settings, and the script (by Tom Holland) does more with the idea of "sequel to Psycho" than I expected.

Plan to watch Psycho III soon.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Takoma1 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:08 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:29 pm
To address one of your issues...
Charlie is already Paimon and hates his female body. She/He is regularly eating chocolates that appear to have nuts throughout the film and the parents’ seeming refusal to check that or carry an epipen (as well as forcing Charlie to go to the party) all appear to be supernatural manipulations in order to rid himself of her shell.
But in the
funeral scene we see the parents double check that the food does not have nuts in it. She appears to eat this same brand of chocolate throughout the film. I don't recall her eating anything that wasn't that type of chocolate or something from the house.

I get that there was a lot of fate at play here, but it felt like a bit of a stretch to me. Especially since we see Charlie being initially very reluctant to eat the cake (as well as being reluctant to go to the party in the first place).

I mean, part of this is that the film does not go out of its way to make it clear when people are being compelled to do things and when they are actually choosing to do them. Did Peter really choose to go to that party, or was it fate?

I have to assume that there was SOME degree of choice (because to me the whole film becomes a lot less interesting if they were, as one character literally says, "just puppets" acting out a part), but obviously that makes it hard to critique character actions because we can't know what they are choosing to do or what they are compelled to do.

The fact that Steve says at the end "And you didn't call the police?!" shows that there is some free will left among them. And if we can assume that Steve is maybe not as affected as the mother and kids, then it even more drives home to me that it doesn't compute that he'd bring his son back to the house.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:24 pm

Takoma1 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:08 pm
But in the
funeral scene we see the parents double check that the food does not have nuts in it. She appears to eat this same brand of chocolate throughout the film. I don't recall her eating anything that wasn't that type of chocolate or something from the house.

I get that there was a lot of fate at play here, but it felt like a bit of a stretch to me. Especially since we see Charlie being initially very reluctant to eat the cake (as well as being reluctant to go to the party in the first place).

I mean, part of this is that the film does not go out of its way to make it clear when people are being compelled to do things and when they are actually choosing to do them. Did Peter really choose to go to that party, or was it fate?

I have to assume that there was SOME degree of choice (because to me the whole film becomes a lot less interesting if they were, as one character literally says, "just puppets" acting out a part), but obviously that makes it hard to critique character actions because we can't know what they are choosing to do or what they are compelled to do.

The fact that Steve says at the end "And you didn't call the police?!" shows that there is some free will left among them. And if we can assume that Steve is maybe not as affected as the mother and kids, then it even more drives home to me that it doesn't compute that he'd bring his son back to the house.
I think there’s more of a sense of determinism and fate than any degree of actual choice. I think believing that they aren’t being treated as puppets undermines the point of that heavy handed classroom conversation.
Which is that them being victims of fate is still extremely tragic because they don’t bring it upon themselves.

Even the name Hereditary is in reference to things that dictate your life but are out of your own control.

When they check the candy, they mention that they didn’t bring the epipen (something a responsible parent would never do). Subsequent chocolate eatings have the sound mixed to add a crunch.

It is heavily implied that there are two Paimons, in a sort of Jesus/God inverted dynamic with Charlie being “Jesus,” a son yet at the same time the deity himself. At the end, when the body is supplanted into Peter, they speak to “Charlie” first before proclaiming him Paimon as well. This dual identity explains a great deal about Charlie’s peculiar personality in that she behaves strangely but also doesn’t seem to understand her behavior or those around her.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Takoma1 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:53 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:24 pm
I think there’s more of a sense of determinism and fate than any degree of actual choice. I think believing that they aren’t being treated as puppets undermines the point of that heavy handed classroom conversation.
Which is that them being victims of fate is still extremely tragic because they don’t bring it upon themselves.

Even the name Hereditary is in reference to things that dictate your life but are out of your own control.

When they check the candy, they mention that they didn’t bring the epipen (something a responsible parent would never do). Subsequent chocolate eatings have the sound mixed to add a crunch.

It is heavily implied that there are two Paimons, in a sort of Jesus/God inverted dynamic with Charlie being “Jesus,” a son yet at the same time the deity himself. At the end, when the body is supplanted into Peter, they speak to “Charlie” first before proclaiming him Paimon as well. This dual identity explains a great deal about Charlie’s peculiar personality in that she behaves strangely but also doesn’t seem to understand her behavior or those around her.
Right, I mean, I get that they are
unknowingly moving toward a destination that they do not understand, and through no ill intent of their own. This is really well explored in the guilt that Peter feels over his sister's death, something that was brought about through a horrible and unpredictable series of events mostly beyond his control.

But I feel like in the party scene Peter is still very much "himself", so it seems weird to me that he doesn't ask, "Where's your epipen?" or ask if someone else at the party has one. It seems really weird to me that he does not call 911, nor does he ever reflect on why he made that choice.

Look: it is such outrageous luck to put your head out a window just as a car swerves, just as a telephone pole is right there. I do not mind the implication that this was somehow magically staged by the coven or whoever. But I think that the characters could still have gotten to that place with more believable actions on Peter's part. Peter could have been showing someone a picture on his phone when Charlie comes in and Peter's cell phone is left behind, something he realizes only once he's driving. Or the phone could slide under the driver's seat and after reaching for it in vain he decides to just focus on driving. The lack of a 911 call just really stood out to me as a choice that isn't easily explained.

I have a co-worker who tragically lost her son because he had an asthma attack (while with a group of people!) and just didn't have his inhaler with him. Even calling 911 didn't save him in time. It's not an unbelievable scenario.

At the point in the narrative at the party we aren't feeling the weight of destiny on Peter's shoulders yet. We know that something is up with Charlie and with the mom, but Peter and Steve seem mostly immune. In retrospect I can justify why he wouldn't call an ambulance, but in the moment when it happens it took me out of the film.

ALSO: I just started Season of the Witch, and I'm loving how much of a mess it is. 28 minutes, and let me count the ways:

1) Trying to be PC, like, "Wasn't it horrible how men in power killed innocent women??" but also wanting to be like "Witches are real, untraditional women are evil, and it's a good thing they hanged and drowned them!!"

2)
--[character hits a woman so hard he knocks her unconscious]
--Nick Cage quips, "NOW she's sedated."

3) There's a character with a strong NEW YAWK accent.

4) Robert Sheehan is in this movie. He's so extra. I hope they give him something fun to do.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Jinnistan » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:57 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:24 pm
I think there’s more of a sense of determinism and fate than any degree of actual choice. I think believing that they aren’t being treated as puppets undermines the point of that heavy handed classroom conversation.
Which is that them being victims of fate is still extremely tragic because they don’t bring it upon themselves.

Even the name Hereditary is in reference to things that dictate your life but are out of your own control.

When they check the candy, they mention that they didn’t bring the epipen (something a responsible parent would never do). Subsequent chocolate eatings have the sound mixed to add a crunch.

It is heavily implied that there are two Paimons, in a sort of Jesus/God inverted dynamic with Charlie being “Jesus,” a son yet at the same time the deity himself. At the end, when the body is supplanted into Peter, they speak to “Charlie” first before proclaiming him Paimon as well. This dual identity explains a great deal about Charlie’s peculiar personality in that she behaves strangely but also doesn’t seem to understand her behavior or those around her.
As I mentioned elsewhere, the lack of development of this aspect of the film was unsatisfying to me, and is also overly convoluted from the source myth.
Paimon does have a bisexual nature - "having a woman's face but still refer to him using masculine pronouns" - and Charlie does exhibit some of the characteristics of the historical demon - "having a 'Hoarse Voice'" - but I don't see any other indication of this kind of "Jesus/God" split entity. Charlie is the third generation of decapitated sacrifices used to consecrate Paimon's possession of Peter's body, which seems to be Aster's own mythical invention, but we could also easily see Ellen and Annie fulfilling a similar role as Charlie (sacrificial incarnations) in establishing this possession. If we were to take the Paimon mythos seriously, then Charlie, or any other of the film's "agents", could be quite a variety of similar subdemons.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Torgo » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:24 am

crumbsroom wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:09 pm
Hands down best zombie movie ever made.
You could be right. My head says it's Dawn of the Dead (1978), but my heart says it's Return. I'll listen to the latter.
In addition to what everyone else has said, it reminded me of Repo Man, of all things, in that it's so unhinged and freewheeling yet also so professionally made. It's like organized chaos, if you will.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:31 am

I think I posted my favorite zombie film a few times in the past here, but it's 28 Days Later for me.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by crumbsroom » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:40 am

Torgo wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:24 am
You could be right. My head says it's Dawn of the Dead (1978), but my heart says it's Return. I'll listen to the latter.
In addition to what everyone else has said, it reminded me of Repo Man, of all things, in that it's so unhinged and freewheeling yet also so professionally made. It's like organized chaos, if you will.
It took me years to really appreciate Dawn but even though I would now consider myself a fan I still think it somewhat of a mess. Often in a lovable ramshakcle kind of way but still problemtatic enough for me that I cant quite see the masterpiece in it so many others seem to. I guess I'm generally lukewarm on Romero's style in general with the exception of Martin. Then again, my fav of his zombie movies is Day, so I'm a big outlier in my appreciation of him

Repo is a fair companion film to return in spirit. Theyd make a great double bill
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Takoma1 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:45 am

Depending on my mood, I'd go between 28 Days Later, Dawn of the Dead, and Shaun of the Dead.

Hat tip to the gentle zombie romance Warm Bodies.

Polite wave at the better-than-you'd-think It Stains the Sand Red.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Rock » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:26 am

DaMU wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:51 pm
Psycho II - B / B-

Surprisingly not-bad. Perkins keeps the movie humming, esp. the dynamic between him and Meg Tilly. I liked that once you drilled down into the story, it was a sort of Frankenstein tale, with certain characters trying to bring Norman the Psycho-Killer back and, of course, having second thoughts once it seems like they might be succeeding. I don't know that the final couple of minutes in the kitchen, with one last mega-reveal, really needed to be in the film. It feels like too much explanation dumped on us after the film's emotionally resolved, and done too quickly. Someone basically says, "But here's what really happened." But, again, Perkins. You don't want him to go back to who he was before and actually feel for his (doomed) efforts to lead something resembling a normal life. Director Richard Franklin has a lot of fun with overhead shots and finding fresh ways to film familiar settings, and the script (by Tom Holland) does more with the idea of "sequel to Psycho" than I expected.

Plan to watch Psycho III soon.
Saw this one recently and similarly enjoyed it. A lot better than it should be for a sequel made more than twenty years after the original.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Captain Terror » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:23 am

Anyone seen Possum on Amazon?

This creepy mother effer right here can go jump in a lake.


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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Rock » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:35 am

Ugh, fucking Jared Leto.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:12 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:53 pm
Right, I mean, I get that they are
unknowingly moving toward a destination that they do not understand, and through no ill intent of their own. This is really well explored in the guilt that Peter feels over his sister's death, something that was brought about through a horrible and unpredictable series of events mostly beyond his control.

But I feel like in the party scene Peter is still very much "himself", so it seems weird to me that he doesn't ask, "Where's your epipen?" or ask if someone else at the party has one. It seems really weird to me that he does not call 911, nor does he ever reflect on why he made that choice.

Look: it is such outrageous luck to put your head out a window just as a car swerves, just as a telephone pole is right there. I do not mind the implication that this was somehow magically staged by the coven or whoever. But I think that the characters could still have gotten to that place with more believable actions on Peter's part. Peter could have been showing someone a picture on his phone when Charlie comes in and Peter's cell phone is left behind, something he realizes only once he's driving. Or the phone could slide under the driver's seat and after reaching for it in vain he decides to just focus on driving. The lack of a 911 call just really stood out to me as a choice that isn't easily explained.

I have a co-worker who tragically lost her son because he had an asthma attack (while with a group of people!) and just didn't have his inhaler with him. Even calling 911 didn't save him in time. It's not an unbelievable scenario.

At the point in the narrative at the party we aren't feeling the weight of destiny on Peter's shoulders yet. We know that something is up with Charlie and with the mom, but Peter and Steve seem mostly immune. In retrospect I can justify why he wouldn't call an ambulance, but in the moment when it happens it took me out of the film.

ALSO: I just started Season of the Witch, and I'm loving how much of a mess it is. 28 minutes, and let me count the ways:

1) Trying to be PC, like, "Wasn't it horrible how men in power killed innocent women??" but also wanting to be like "Witches are real, untraditional women are evil, and it's a good thing they hanged and drowned them!!"

2)
--[character hits a woman so hard he knocks her unconscious]
--Nick Cage quips, "NOW she's sedated."

3) There's a character with a strong NEW YAWK accent.

4) Robert Sheehan is in this movie. He's so extra. I hope they give him something fun to do.
I think the question becomes...
Does him feeling like “himself” mean he’s not under control? I’d wager the answer to that is no.

That whole sequence does set off several red flags but ultimately, it can’t really be judged under realistic expectations because the forces acting upon them are supernatural. For the sequence to occur, numerous, seemingly coincidental things have to happen:

-Peter has to want to go to a party (he smokes weed, possibly justifying his lack of 911 call)
-the mom has to force Charlie to go without her epipen
-the girls have to be making a cake with nuts
-Charlie has to lean her head out the window
- a Dead animal has to be in the road forcing Peter to swerve

It IS a tall order but the film does things like showing the symbol of Paimon on that post before the incident occurs and has Charlie’s fascination with decapitation (an animal that slams its head into a solid object it doesn’t see coming nonetheless).

Given how prevalent the cult members are throughout the film and they often seem to no exist or operate in the “real” world (Screaming at Peter from across the street with no other witnesses and setting fires on their property without them noticing), their machinations seem to transcend any sort of practical application and enters the realm of the surreal and supernatural.

This is why I’m perfectly okay with the epipen and 911 contrivances as they feel like choices the COULD make but also could only make due to how this plan for them has been in place before birth.

It goes down much smoother and better on a rewatch
As for SotW, I didn’t care for it. I love me some bad Nic Cage but I can’t stand when he seems bored. I recall a few laughs but mostly waiting for it to end.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by DaMU » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:40 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:45 am
Depending on my mood, I'd go between 28 Days Later, Dawn of the Dead, and Shaun of the Dead.

Hat tip to the gentle zombie romance Warm Bodies.

Polite wave at the better-than-you'd-think It Stains the Sand Red.
Agreed on Dawn and Shaun, would add the original Night.

It's been way too long since I've seen Cemetery Man, but I remember loving it.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by DaMU » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:44 am

Return I've watched a few times and even owned for a while and tried to love. Never was really able to. Loved everything in the warehouse in the first third, loved some of the punks' attitude ("This is a way of life!"), loved some of the twists in traditional zombie tropes, but it always seemed to peter out by the end. It's definitely good and idiosyncratic and worth the watch, but...

[ascii shrug]
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:11 am

28 Days Later is where I hang my hat, should anyone have forgotten.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by DaMU » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:34 am

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:11 am
28 Days Later is where I hang my hat, should anyone have forgotten.
[tips hat]
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Stu » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:49 am

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:12 am
I think the question becomes...
Does him feeling like “himself” mean he’s not under control? I’d wager the answer to that is no.

That whole sequence does set off several red flags but ultimately, it can’t really be judged under realistic expectations because the forces acting upon them are supernatural. For the sequence to occur, numerous, seemingly coincidental things have to happen:

-Peter has to want to go to a party (he smokes weed, possibly justifying his lack of 911 call)
-the mom has to force Charlie to go without her epipen
-the girls have to be making a cake with nuts
-Charlie has to lean her head out the window
- a Dead animal has to be in the road forcing Peter to swerve

It IS a tall order but the film does things like showing the symbol of Paimon on that post before the incident occurs and has Charlie’s fascination with decapitation (an animal that slams its head into a solid object it doesn’t see coming nonetheless).

Given how prevalent the cult members are throughout the film and they often seem to no exist or operate in the “real” world (Screaming at Peter from across the street with no other witnesses and setting fires on their property without them noticing), their machinations seem to transcend any sort of practical application and enters the realm of the surreal and supernatural.

This is why I’m perfectly okay with the epipen and 911 contrivances as they feel like choices the COULD make but also could only make due to how this plan for them has been in place before birth.
I feel like all of that is giving Aster too much credit, as, if it was his intention that everything that happened to
the Grahams was predestined by the invisible, unstoppable forces of the cult/Paimon/whatever (which, like DaMU said earlier, then kind of just turns the movie into an inescapable death march, which I also don't find particularly investing to watch, but that's a whole other debate), then he directly contradicted that goal when Annie publicly remarked on all the many strange faces that showed up at the funeral of her extremely secretive mother (but then she or no one else there ever asks any of the cultists how they actually knew her mother, so, what, the family has free will half of the time, then? What are the rules, Ari?). It's not just that though, as Aster also showed a willingness to contradict the rules established by his own film with the whole deal with Charlie's notebook, when Annie started catching on fire along with it when she threw it in the fireplace, but the second time, Steve was the one who caught on fire, even though, again, she was the one who lit it up, and these examples, among many others, combined with Aster's willingness to cram as many different incohesive Horror cliches and poorly-measured setpieces in the film's over-stuffed, poorly-paced 2nd half betrays a fundamentally sloppy execution on his part, one where he seemed to hope that the film's supernatural premise would just naturally wallpaper over such holes, with the catch-all explanation that it's more supernatural shenanigans, when, as far as I'm concerned, it's all just more weak, inconsistent writing on his part, and being a Supernatural Horror movie isn't an excuse for that.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:54 am

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:11 am
28 Days Later is where I hang my hat, should anyone have forgotten.
Looks like I'm placing mine next to yours.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Wooley » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:04 pm

I am probably a Return Of The Living Dead man myself.
I love a good zombie movie, I love White Zombie, The Living Dead At Manchester Morgue, Zombi, I Walked With A Zombie, Night Of The Comet (if you'll allow it), and all the others mentioned here like Night, Dawn, 28 Days, etc.
But if I only get to watch one zombie movie again before I die, it's probably The Return Of The Living Dead.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Takoma1 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:16 pm

Chalking up
everything that the main characters do as part of supernatural influence is a little too close to "a wizard did it!" for my taste.

I think that it wouldn't have been hard to include small details that would have made it more "clearly ambiguous" as to why characters did certain things. It begs the question of just how many people are under this influence (ie are the kids at the party under their sway as well?).

And here's why I don't like it: if these people are so powerful as to basically be bending the universe to their will, why play games with the family? Once they get Annie/the family to conjure Charlie's spirit, why not just kill dad, decapitate mom, and perform the ritual on Peter?

We see some pretty intense powers (literally climbing up walls, etc), so why do they have to be at all sneaky about it?

I'm happier with the narrative if we are to believe that the coven has SOME power over events, but are not entirely in control of the characters' actions.

In fact, from a thematic point of view I think that the film is a lot more interesting if their fate was preventable, and specifically if the characters had aired their feelings and confronted their past. The photo album is a great symbol of this. That album is ridiculous. We literally see a photo of the family being used in a creepy looking ritual. We see the grandmother and Joan as buddies. If Annie had been willing to "face the past", she would have seen these things much earlier.

We learn through the film that Annie repeatedly tried to stop what was happening, even if subconsciously. She tries to induce a miscarriage. She douses her children in paint thinner and tries to set them alight. So at some point, a part of Annie was actively fighting against this destiny. To me, this shows that there is some free will within this construct.

To that end, it just continues to bother me that Peter not calling 911 is never addressed. It would have taken a single line of dialogue to give him some motivation for that choice, and the lack of any explanation sticks out to me. We repeatedly see characters call out other characters for doing irrational things (like Steve calling out Annie on the seance stuff, or Peter being freaked out by her being in his room). It's a nitpick, but it bothers me because it would have been so easy to address (and in addressing it, the film could easily have stayed very ambiguous about whether or not the characters really have free will).
So, yeah, Season of the Witch was a bust. Just . . . bad, and maybe kind of sexist? And not great CGI.

How is The Sorcerer's Apprentice? To be honest, I think that's what I thought I was watching. I remember catching a few minutes of it and deciding it was delightfully messy (where Season of the Witch was just . . . blah).
Captain Terror wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:23 am
Anyone seen Possum on Amazon?
Was it good?! I love the poster. I almost ended up watching it before picking Season of the Witch.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Captain Terror » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:54 pm

Takoma1 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:16 pm
Was it good?! I love the poster. I almost ended up watching it before picking Season of the Witch.
Atmosphere: A+
Performances: A+
Creepy-ass man/spider puppet: A+
Story: hmmm

An obviously-disturbed man walks around with a terrifying puppet in a duffel bag 24/7. He tries to destroy it on multiple occasions but is never successful (SYMBOLISM!) There's a reveal of sorts that seems to divide viewers, based on the handful of non-professional reviews I read afterwards. I hesitate to call it a reveal, because the thing that's revealed was so obvious to me from the beginning that I wonder if the writer/director even considers it a reveal. So as someone that generally is less concerned with plot than with creepy shenanigans, even I recognized that this was a bit clunky. However, the overall mood was right up my alley so I ultimately enjoyed it quite a bit. Another viewer's reaction will depend on where they fall on the style vs substance debate.

Incidentally this was written and directed by Matthew Holness, who was recently discussed in another thread. He's mostly known for comedy in the UK evidently.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Takoma1 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:13 pm

Captain Terror wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:54 pm
Atmosphere: A+
Performances: A+
Creepy-ass man/spider puppet: A+
Story: hmmm

An obviously-disturbed man walks around with a terrifying puppet in a duffel bag 24/7. He tries to destroy it on multiple occasions but is never successful (SYMBOLISM!) There's a reveal of sorts that seems to divide viewers, based on the handful of non-professional reviews I read afterwards. I hesitate to call it a reveal, because the thing that's revealed was so obvious to me from the beginning that I wonder if the writer/director even considers it a reveal. So as someone that generally is less concerned with plot than with creepy shenanigans, even I recognized that this was a bit clunky. However, the overall mood was right up my alley so I ultimately enjoyed it quite a bit. Another viewer's reaction will depend on where they fall on the style vs substance debate.

Incidentally this was written and directed by Matthew Holness, who was recently discussed in another thread. He's mostly known for comedy in the UK evidently.
Ah, yes. He worked on Darkplace.

I'll probably check out Possum (though I'm not forgetting that you liked Bokeh--shame on you!).
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:50 pm

Takoma1 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:16 pm
Chalking up
everything that the main characters do as part of supernatural influence is a little too close to "a wizard did it!" for my taste.

I think that it wouldn't have been hard to include small details that would have made it more "clearly ambiguous" as to why characters did certain things. It begs the question of just how many people are under this influence (ie are the kids at the party under their sway as well?).

And here's why I don't like it: if these people are so powerful as to basically be bending the universe to their will, why play games with the family? Once they get Annie/the family to conjure Charlie's spirit, why not just kill dad, decapitate mom, and perform the ritual on Peter?

We see some pretty intense powers (literally climbing up walls, etc), so why do they have to be at all sneaky about it?

I'm happier with the narrative if we are to believe that the coven has SOME power over events, but are not entirely in control of the characters' actions.

In fact, from a thematic point of view I think that the film is a lot more interesting if their fate was preventable, and specifically if the characters had aired their feelings and confronted their past. The photo album is a great symbol of this. That album is ridiculous. We literally see a photo of the family being used in a creepy looking ritual. We see the grandmother and Joan as buddies. If Annie had been willing to "face the past", she would have seen these things much earlier.

We learn through the film that Annie repeatedly tried to stop what was happening, even if subconsciously. She tries to induce a miscarriage. She douses her children in paint thinner and tries to set them alight. So at some point, a part of Annie was actively fighting against this destiny. To me, this shows that there is some free will within this construct.

To that end, it just continues to bother me that Peter not calling 911 is never addressed. It would have taken a single line of dialogue to give him some motivation for that choice, and the lack of any explanation sticks out to me. We repeatedly see characters call out other characters for doing irrational things (like Steve calling out Annie on the seance stuff, or Peter being freaked out by her being in his room). It's a nitpick, but it bothers me because it would have been so easy to address (and in addressing it, the film could easily have stayed very ambiguous about whether or not the characters really have free will).
So, yeah, Season of the Witch was a bust. Just . . . bad, and maybe kind of sexist? And not great CGI.

How is The Sorcerer's Apprentice? To be honest, I think that's what I thought I was watching. I remember catching a few minutes of it and deciding it was delightfully messy (where Season of the Witch was just . . . blah).



Was it good?! I love the poster. I almost ended up watching it before picking Season of the Witch.
I think it operates on a very similar level as Funny Games. Neither play fair and were they not so flagrantly, openly playing with a strong degree of fatalism, I would be more apt to criticize. I think the illusion of agency is important for such stories but it need not be ACTUAL agency.

Agreed on SOTW being a bust though. Cage didn't even dance the Hokey Pokey. Why even cast him?
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Takoma1 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:09 am

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:50 pm
I think it operates on a very similar level as Funny Games. Neither play fair and were they not so flagrantly, openly playing with a strong degree of fatalism, I would be more apt to criticize. I think the illusion of agency is important for such stories but it need not be ACTUAL agency.
I think that my problem boils down to a film presenting a certain type of logic. When a movie is "anything goes", my inclination is to think of that as a flaw/cheating. I'm not saying movies are bad if they don't have internal logic, but for me as a viewer it causes a disconnect with the story.
Agreed on SOTW being a bust though. Cage didn't even dance the Hokey Pokey. Why even cast him?
Because they needed someone to pronounce olde English type names with a "no, I'm not even trying" American accent?
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Rock » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:53 am

Is SotW the one where Cage' s haircut looks like somebody dumped a plate of spaghetti on his head?
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Jinnistan » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:07 am

I'm not convinced that either Cage's Season of the Witch or Sorcerer's Apprentice qualify as horror films.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Torgo » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:28 am

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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Ergill » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:32 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:09 am
I think that my problem boils down to a film presenting a certain type of logic. When a movie is "anything goes", my inclination is to think of that as a flaw/cheating. I'm not saying movies are bad if they don't have internal logic, but for me as a viewer it causes a disconnect with the story.
I think there's an internal logic to it. The internal logic is just an evil, evil fatalism. Stu may brush that aside as another conversation, but that's probably the real conversation here. We can toss aside authorial intent if we like for a broader talk of what happens in the film and how it could conceivably be construed, but Aster has been pretty straight-forward that he thinks the family are lambs for the slaughter. He even introduces reference to Iphigenia in the movie to draw parallels with fatalism in ancient Greek drama. In that idiom, character's flaws came into play, but were subordinated to a tragic fate, all part of the design. Your concern about calling 911 is totally justified, but feels less to me about internal than external logic, as it doesn't jibe with your experience of people in similar positions. Stu's point about, say, who catches fire when seems more an internal logic thing, but instead of anything goes, I think MKS is right that it's more a Funny Games ploy to tease at a sense of agency only to turn around and radically undermine it. In both cases, kind of like you say, I think either could've been waved aside with a little excuse. But when that's all it takes, it's a small tip the scale for me. I'm fine with the nebulousness of the plan and the specific rules, and probably wouldn't want them to be sussed out all that more than what we already got.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Takoma1 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:34 am

Jinnistan wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:07 am
I'm not convinced that either Cage's Season of the Witch or Sorcerer's Apprentice qualify as horror films.
But, the demons! And . . . the hair!
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Jinnistan » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:34 am

I can put up $300 and scripting skills for a Nicolas Cage film starring as Bram Stoker as he devolves into syphilitic delirium while writing Lair of the White Worm.

I need investors and a chainsaw.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Takoma1 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:06 am

Ergill wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:32 am
I think there's an internal logic to it. The internal logic is just an evil, evil fatalism. Stu may brush that aside as another conversation, but that's probably the real conversation here. We can toss aside authorial intent if we like for a broader talk of what happens in the film and how it could conceivably be construed, but Aster has been pretty straight-forward that he thinks the family are lambs for the slaughter. He even introduces reference to Iphigenia in the movie to draw parallels with fatalism in ancient Greek drama. In that idiom, character's flaws came into play, but were subordinated to a tragic fate, all part of the design. Your concern about calling 911 is totally justified, but feels less to me about internal than external logic, as it doesn't jibe with your experience of people in similar positions. Stu's point about, say, who catches fire when seems more an internal logic thing, but instead of anything goes, I think MKS is right that it's more a Funny Games ploy to tease at a sense of agency only to turn around and radically undermine it. In both cases, kind of like you say, I think either could've been waved aside with a little excuse. But when that's all it takes, it's a small tip the scale for me. I'm fine with the nebulousness of the plan and the specific rules, and probably wouldn't want them to be sussed out all that more than what we already got.
Well, even if I'm okay with
people just sliding down an unseen slope toward an inevitable demise (which can be okay when done skillfully, as it mostly is here), those little logic blips create a moment of disconnect for me. There are three different moments in which someone should be calling 911 (allergic reaction, classroom incident, Steve returning home to a body in the attic and two different family members having psychotic breakdowns). The incident in the school is the one that bothers me the most and is just . . . wrong. It stretches the malign influence to include a teacher, a school nurse, and administrator--all of whom apparently don't follow legal protocol. I can accept the influence over the main family (and Steve as the last influenced because he is not a blood relative makes sense), but the extension to a bunch of other people doesn't quite wash for me.

The fact that Steve, Peter, and Annie all show that they know something wrong is happening adds to this. They aren't brainwashed or complacent. We aren't being asked to believe that calling the police doesn't occur to them, because Steve mentions it.

I'd have rather seen them either bring it up and become unduly anxious about calling OR have them bring it up and then be distracted by something or let us as the viewer watch as the thought passes out of their mind. As is, it seems like the characters think independently when it suits the plot (Annie thinks to burn the book) and don't at other times (not thinking to call the police).

The thing is--later in the film once you realize the scope of the coven's power, it seems like less of a problem. But in the moment, before that knowledge, it really fractured the degree to which I had really bought into the narrative.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Rock » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:13 am

Jinnistan wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:34 am
I can put up $300 and scripting skills for a Nicolas Cage film starring as Bram Stoker as he devolves into syphilitic delirium while writing Lair of the White Worm.

I need investors and a chainsaw.
I'll chip in $50 if you write in a Fire Birds style freakout where he declares himself the greatest.



(In case you're wondering, the movie's not great, but that moment is prime Cage.)
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Ergill » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:23 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:06 am
Well, even if I'm okay with
people just sliding down an unseen slope toward an inevitable demise (which can be okay when done skillfully, as it mostly is here), those little logic blips create a moment of disconnect for me. There are three different moments in which someone should be calling 911 (allergic reaction, classroom incident, Steve returning home to a body in the attic and two different family members having psychotic breakdowns). The incident in the school is the one that bothers me the most and is just . . . wrong. It stretches the malign influence to include a teacher, a school nurse, and administrator--all of whom apparently don't follow legal protocol. I can accept the influence over the main family (and Steve as the last influenced because he is not a blood relative makes sense), but the extension to a bunch of other people doesn't quite wash for me.

The fact that Steve, Peter, and Annie all show that they know something wrong is happening adds to this. They aren't brainwashed or complacent. We aren't being asked to believe that calling the police doesn't occur to them, because Steve mentions it.

I'd have rather seen them either bring it up and become unduly anxious about calling OR have them bring it up and then be distracted by something or let us as the viewer watch as the thought passes out of their mind. As is, it seems like the characters think independently when it suits the plot (Annie thinks to burn the book) and don't at other times (not thinking to call the police).

The thing is--later in the film once you realize the scope of the coven's power, it seems like less of a problem. But in the moment, before that knowledge, it really fractured the degree to which I had really bought into the narrative.
I get the disconnect. I just think you're bringing in a wider experience than Aster has on those matters, which is a fair criticism to lob, but not so much a question of an anything-goes internal logic. Aster probably doesn't know proper school protocol when a student has a (supernatural) meltdown. I, for instance, would've set the child on fire at that point.

I will also, again, insist that the sequence surrounding Steve finding the mother's body is the funniest in the film and needs no further justification.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Captain Terror » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:28 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:13 pm
I'll probably check out Possum (though I'm not forgetting that you liked Bokeh--shame on you!).
I should create a new signature that says "I liked Bokeh", so that anyone that reads my posts will know that it's safe to ignore whatever they just read.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:30 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:09 am
I think that my problem boils down to a film presenting a certain type of logic. When a movie is "anything goes", my inclination is to think of that as a flaw/cheating. I'm not saying movies are bad if they don't have internal logic, but for me as a viewer it causes a disconnect with the story.



Because they needed someone to pronounce olde English type names with a "no, I'm not even trying" American accent?
I think Hereditary and Funny Games have internal logic but it doesn't have to be plausible because the point of them are that these machinistic forces ARE cheating.

I think Cage should have attempted his Vampire's Kiss accent. That this wasn't insisted proves the movie should be burned at the stake.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Takoma1 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:55 am

Ergill wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:23 am
I get the disconnect. I just think you're bringing in a wider experience than Aster has on those matters, which is a fair criticism to lob, but not so much a question of an anything-goes internal logic. Aster probably doesn't know proper school protocol when a student has a (supernatural) meltdown. I, for instance, would've set the child on fire at that point.

I will also, again, insist that the sequence surrounding Steve finding the mother's body is the funniest in the film and needs no further justification.
Actually, when
she threw the book into the fire and he immediately burst into flames, I laughed so hard. It was 10% surprise and 90% I'm a bad person.
I mean, my friend who is a doctor just laughs whenever she sees CPR in films/TV. And now that I know how to do CPR and use a defibrillator, every single scene where someone yells "CLEAR!!!" I'm just like . . . "That's not how those work." (Not the "clear" part--the best thing about learning to use a defibrillator was getting to yell "CLEAR" and then push the zap button).

I get that it's like *pushes glasses up nose* "Um,
that is NOT protocol for a student self-harming!", but I can't help knowing how silly that is, and I also can't help feeling like it's asking me to believe more about the power of the coven than feels reasonable.
ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:30 am
I think Hereditary and Funny Games have internal logic but it doesn't have to be plausible because the point of them are that these machinistic forces ARE cheating.
I get that. From my point of view it just makes the story a lot less interesting.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Jinnistan » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:41 am

Rock wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:13 am
I'll chip in $50 if you write in a Fire Birds style freakout where he declares himself the greatest.
$50 dollars should pay for this....


Image


....with which to assemble the 60% syphilitic montage fever dreams from Nicolas Cage's entire VHS catalogue.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Jinnistan » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:43 am

This film (Stoked - working title) will be a monster of meta-media madness. And we shall give it life.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by MadMan » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:47 am

For me the best zombie movie ever is still the original Night of the Living Dead.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Slentert » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:12 am

I'm going with I Walked With A Zombie as my favorite zombie flick. That said, I have not even seen most of the movies y'all mentioned.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Torgo » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:57 pm

Another decent zombie movie (or is it a vampire movie? Maybe it's both) I saw recently is David Cronenberg's Rabid. Having seen almost all of his movies now, I think this would be a good place to start for people who haven't seen any. It's a pretty conventional horror movie, but it's still peppered with enough Cronenberg trademarks for amateurs to know what they're getting into, whether it's using tongue-in-cheek humor while naming characters (Dr. Keloid is named after a type of scar tissue, for example) or exploiting fears of combining emerging technology - in this case, plastic surgery - with the human body. However, the true focus of this movie may be technology's impact on the major North American city. With their modern conveniences and the multitudes of perverts and other creeps your parents warned you about who infest them, the movie shows how an unstable, toxic element - bonus points if it's one as sexy as Marilyn Chambers - could turn one into a chaotic, militarized hellhole.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Rock » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:12 am

As far as underrated zombie movies go, I'll vouch for The Grapes of Death and (if it counts) The Living Dead Girl from Jean Rollin. They low key atmosphere makes these feel distinct from most entries in the genre. I'm also tempted to vouch for the Spanish horror film Let Sleeping Corpses, but I haven't seen it in ages so I can't say how well it holds up.
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