Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

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Jinnistan
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Jinnistan » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:10 am

DaMU wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:23 am
But these bro-y guys have a love as wide as the ocean and as deep as a puddle.
Eli Roth to a T.

I was thinking of Green Inferno during the recent Bone Tomahawk discussion. I think the former is, at least, an equally racist depiction of savage natives, which is compounded by the dumb attempt to use this racist depiction as a blunt object to hammer anti-racist idealogues.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:18 am

Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:10 am
Eli Roth to a T.

I was thinking of Green Inferno during the recent Bone Tomahawk discussion. I think the former is, at least, an equally racist depiction of savage natives, which is compounded by the dumb attempt to use this racist depiction as a blunt object to hammer anti-racist idealogues.
The primary difference is that Green Inferno fully embraces how stupid and contradictory it and the genre are while Bone Tomahawk is fairly self serious and seems to believe it's making a similar comment that the Italian films strove for on the savagery of men.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Jinnistan » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:29 am

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:18 am
The primary difference is that Green Inferno fully embraces how stupid and contradictory it and the genre are while Bone Tomahawk is fairly self serious and seems to believe it's making a similar comment that the Italian films strove for on the savagery of men.
There's a self-seriousness to embracing the stupidity as well. Or maybe just a cop-out.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:53 am

Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:29 am
There's a self-seriousness to embracing the stupidity as well. Or maybe just a cop-out.
I wouldn't argue with someone calling Green Inferno's approach to being a cop-out. The amount of weight that carries towards my enjoyment of the film is fairly minor. I think the superficiality and silliness of Roth's films are part of the appeal.

Zahler, on the other hand, treats his racial and sociological elements with the utmost seriousness and espouses some fairly right-wing rhetoric, even if the ultimate morality of the film seems to land a bit more towards center.

Zahler dresses up his serious films in exploitation make-up. Roth's films are modern exploitation schlock to the core, despite being technically well-made (better than Zahler's, in fact, with only DAC giving Roth formal competition).
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Jinnistan » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:35 am

I need to see Zahler's other films before I can weigh in on him as a filmmaker

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:53 am
Roth's films are modern exploitation schlock to the core, despite being technically well-made (better than Zahler's, in fact, with only DAC giving Roth formal competition).
I think this is what DaMU was getting at though. Roth obviously has the intelligence to make a "technically well-made" film. His mind is sharp, but, like most blades, it's also narrow and shallow. For me, his embrace of stupidity is pure cynicism, and I'd much rather watch a film from a less technically accomplished director attempting to transcend his limitations.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:47 am

Jinnistan wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:35 am
I need to see Zahler's other films before I can weigh in on him as a filmmaker




I think this is what DaMU was getting at though. Roth obviously has the intelligence to make a "technically well-made" film. His mind is sharp, but, like most blades, it's also narrow and shallow. For me, his embrace of stupidity is pure cynicism, and I'd much rather watch a film from a less technically accomplished director attempting to transcend his limitations.
I actively like and defend DaC (his least popular) but pretty much hated his sophomore film, Brawl in Cell Block 99.

I don't read it as cynicism. I think of it as an exhuberant expression of cinematic love similar to what Del Toro did with Pacific Rim and Crimson Peak. They aren't trying to transcend the genre narratively or thematically. They're simply trying to recreate the feeling of niche cinema within the confines (or freedom) of modern technology and higher budgets.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Torgo » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:36 am

Instead of watching Jaws on the 4th of July, I watched the Roger Corman knockoff Piranha, which is a curiosity at best. It has no shame about the coattails it's riding - the protagonist even plays a Jaws arcade game - but that does not let it off the hook. The movie's most glaring flaw is that its aim is unclear. If it's trying to send up Jaws and/or its imitators, it's not funny enough. From the skinny dipping opening scene to the 4th of July-like opening of the water park, it copies scenes from Jaws, but there's little satire to be found. Alternatively, if it's trying to be horror, it's not scary enough, especially since the piranha attacks were likely as unintenionally funny in 1978 as they are now. There are a few highlights that snapped me out of my indifference stupor like Paul Bartel's militaristic camp counselor, the story behind the piranha experiments and the appearance of the always-amusing Dick Miller. Even so, they're not enough to make up for the rest of the movie's "not enoughs."
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:58 am

I wasn't sure what Piranha was going for, but I did enjoy some of the interlocking scenes between its horror sequences well enough such as McCarthy's scenes and most of what took place at the camp, specifically the portrayal of the rough camp counselor, so I can't say I disliked it as a whole, even though it didn't leave a big impact. I also enjoyed some of the visual gags such as Grogan cooking a fish in his first scene.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:59 am

Aja’s Piranha 3D is much superior to Joe Dante’s original. I do enjoy the original more than you. It’s got a tone and vibe akin to much of Corman’s output enough where it’s just campy enough to feel aware of its cheapness but tries to take itself seriously enough that it doesn’t fall into the cynical shitfests of most Full Moon or Asylum films (ironically, the few good films from each of those studios seem like they came from Stuart Gordon).
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Apex Predator » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:06 am

Sitting through What the Waters Left Behind, an Argentinian film that's a bad cross between The Blair Witch Project and Wrong Turn.

The idea behind the film (the aftermath of the 1985 flooding of Epecuen) is a lot more interesting than the film itself.

I'd like to see an actual film tackle that and do it justice rather than going for cheap exploitation points.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by DaMU » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:40 am

I don't take Roth's films as cynical. I honestly take them as empty. I don't think the man has a thought in his head beyond pointing at the thing he likes and saying "I want to do exactly that." I think you have to have a perspective on something before you can be cynical about it. (I will make an exception for Hostel, which I find to be the only film of his that went anywhere for me beyond shallow evocation, although there's something to be said for Reeves' commitment to Knock Knock.) Maybe it's also that I just don't like bro personalities, and it's like I can feel him reaching through the screen and slapping me on the back before trying to nutshot me and insist it's just a joke duude.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:26 am

DaMU wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:40 am
I don't take Roth's films as cynical. I honestly take them as empty. I don't think the man has a thought in his head beyond pointing at the thing he likes and saying "I want to do exactly that." I think you have to have a perspective on something before you can be cynical about it. (I will make an exception for Hostel, which I find to be the only film of his that went anywhere for me beyond shallow evocation, although there's something to be said for Reeves' commitment to Knock Knock.) Maybe it's also that I just don't like bro personalities, and it's like I can feel him reaching through the screen and slapping me on the back before trying to nutshot me and insist it's just a joke duude.
Is it possibly to agree with this but in a positive way? Like I find it to just be an earnest, nigh fanboy expression of what he loves in movies? I don’t take him seriously as a thinker or artist but I don’t get the feeling he’s asking me to. He just enjoys a lot of the schlock cinema, understands the mechanics of how they work and why they appeal, and does that. It’s the same enjoyment I get from watching Eurotrash Italian Rip Offs.

I think Roth was likely that bro back when he made Cabin Fever but he seems to have chilled out a lot and I find him downright affable the last few years with Shark After Dark and his interviews/social media.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:09 am

I want a study showing how Lars Von Trier fans are coping.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Wooley » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:26 pm

Torgo wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:36 am
Instead of watching Jaws on the 4th of July, I watched the Roger Corman knockoff Piranha, which is a curiosity at best. It has no shame about the coattails it's riding - the protagonist even plays a Jaws arcade game - but that does not let it off the hook. The movie's most glaring flaw is that its aim is unclear. If it's trying to send up Jaws and/or its imitators, it's not funny enough. From the skinny dipping opening scene to the 4th of July-like opening of the water park, it copies scenes from Jaws, but there's little satire to be found. Alternatively, if it's trying to be horror, it's not scary enough, especially since the piranha attacks were likely as unintenionally funny in 1978 as they are now. There are a few highlights that snapped me out of my indifference stupor like Paul Bartel's militaristic camp counselor, the story behind the piranha experiments and the appearance of the always-amusing Dick Miller. Even so, they're not enough to make up for the rest of the movie's "not enoughs."
I like it a lot.
But you should have watched Up From The Depths.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Torgo » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:03 pm

In disagreement with horror gurus MKS and Wooley two times in a row? This is...not good.
I shall watch The Bye Bye Man ten times in a row as penance.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:57 pm

Torgo wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:03 pm
In disagreement with horror gurus MKS and Wooley two times in a row? This is...not good.
I shall watch The Bye Bye Man ten times in a row as penance.
The opening scene of the Bye Bye Man is strangely good and the story of the husband/wife filmmaking duo is tragic in a way that touches my cold heart so this will not do.

It shall be Slender Man witnessed 10 times!!!
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Charles » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:05 pm

Bye Bye Man's opening is so good. I remember little else.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Captain Terror » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:20 pm

Are yall really gonna make me watch the goddamn Bye Bye Man???
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Charles » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:27 pm

Captain Terror wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:20 pm
Are yall really gonna make me watch the goddamn Bye Bye Man???
It's probably a lot worse than I remember, but the opening is very striking. Watch that, close it, and imagine that a good movie follows up.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Torgo » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:52 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:57 pm
The opening scene of the Bye Bye Man is strangely good and the story of the husband/wife filmmaking duo is tragic in a way that touches my cold heart so this will not do.

It shall be Slender Man witnessed 10 times!!!
A Dangerous Method and Piranha are the best movies ever made and it's not even close.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by DaMU » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:02 pm

Torgo wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:03 pm
In disagreement with horror gurus MKS and Wooley two times in a row? This is...not good.
I shall watch The Bye Bye Man ten times in a row as penance.
Sometimes the gurus must be toppled. They grow stagnant and toxic sitting atop their lonely peaks.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:45 pm

Torgo wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:52 pm
A Dangerous Method and Piranha are the best movies ever made and it's not even close.
An overcorrection but an improvement nonetheless.

And for the record, I was speaking of Stacy Title's tragic story, not a character in her film. If you want to feel a little more sad (and who doesn't these days), here's what went down with her and her dream of still making another movie:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/ ... ie-1145218
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:46 pm

Captain Terror wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:20 pm
Are yall really gonna make me watch the goddamn Bye Bye Man???
Jesus, no. Don't say it! Don't think it! It's terrible. Not Slenderman terrible but almost entirely without merit.

Except... Maybe?
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Charles » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:51 pm

Don't let MKS trick you! Slenderman is absolute shite!
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:01 pm

Charles wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:51 pm
Don't let MKS trick you! Slenderman is absolute shite!
I felt I was being upfront about it being among the very worst.

Though it does have the line "Its like a virus that infects your computer but it infects your brain." I love that so much it scares me.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Charles » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:05 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:01 pm
I felt I was being upfront about it being among the very worst.

Though it does have the line "Its like a virus that infects your computer but it infects your brain." I love that so much it scares me.
Oh, I misread. Yeah, Bye Bye is better.

What a stupid fucking movie Slenderman was. Why the tree stuff? Why tell us that everything is a hallucination? Why did Bunheads get cancelled, forcing Julia to play in drek like this?
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:24 pm

Charles wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:05 pm
Oh, I misread. Yeah, Bye Bye is better.

What a stupid fucking movie Slenderman was. Why the tree stuff? Why tell us that everything is a hallucination? Why did Bunheads get cancelled, forcing Julia to play in drek like this?
Why edit out everything that was supposed to be scary due to social media outrage after you already ignored the questionable nature of adapting it after the Slenderman child stabbing?

It made the film incoherent and utterly ugly and worthless while STILL being a cynical cash in.

Classic Sony move.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Captain Terror » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:30 pm

Charles wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:05 pm
Oh, I misread. Yeah, Bye Bye is better.

What a stupid fucking movie Slenderman was. Why the tree stuff? Why tell us that everything is a hallucination? Why did Bunheads get cancelled, forcing Julia to play in drek like this?
I watched The Wind this weekend (not bad) and I was far too excited when she appeared on screen. "Hey, it's Sasha!"
#BunHeads4Eva
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:50 pm

Captain Terror wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:30 pm
I watched The Wind this weekend (not bad) and I was far too excited when she appeared on screen. "Hey, it's Sasha!"
#BunHeads4Eva
The Wind is decent. I wanted to like it more than I did but felt like it didn't maintain the class and became fairly clunky any time it decided to be scary.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Captain Terror » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:46 am

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:50 pm
The Wind is decent. I wanted to like it more than I did but felt like it didn't maintain the class and became fairly clunky any time it decided to be scary.
Agreed. I went into it hoping for a horror film, but quickly realized the non-horror bits were the best part. The idea of two couples being alone out on the prairie like that was pretty interesting. I would've preferred to stick with that instead of whatever "creepy" stuff they tried to throw in there. Not bad for a debut though.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:59 am

Captain Terror wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:46 am
Agreed. I went into it hoping for a horror film, but quickly realized the non-horror bits were the best part. The idea of two couples being alone out on the prairie like that was pretty interesting. I would've preferred to stick with that instead of whatever "creepy" stuff they tried to throw in there. Not bad for a debut though.
Agreed. My interest was particularly piqued when Rock saw it at TIFF and compared it to my short film Sangre Dulce. Apparently, both the director and I shared an affinity for Meek's Cutoff and feature attempts at self defense with a muzzle loader. I was a tad disappointed when the reloading and weapons handling was inaccurate. Minor complaint but one that stuck me like a thorn.

I still happily have it in my movie library though.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Rock » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:28 am

You guys are saying that The Wind didn't blow you away?
"We're outgunned and undermanned. But you know somethin'? We're gonna win. You know why? Superior attitude. Superior state of mind." - Mason Storm
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by DaMU » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:51 am

Rock wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:28 am
You guys are saying that The Wind didn't blow you away?
I heard it was fast-paced and light. You know, a real breezy film.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Rock » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:57 am

I want it to be known that I was making a pun both on the title and MKS's reference to firearms. Like the performance of Caitlin Gerard in the lead role, my posting is subtle and layered.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by DaMU » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 am

I want it to be known that my pun was very dumb and I am proud of it.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Rock » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:48 am

I want it to be known that Dolemite is back on the scene. I want it to be known that Dolemite is my name, and fuckin' up motherfuckers is my game.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by DaMU » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:58 am

Rock wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:48 am
I want it to be known that Dolemite is back on the scene. I want it to be known that Dolemite is my name, and fuckin' up motherfuckers is my game.
[shakes head in disappointment]

This used to be a family-friendly thread.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Wooley » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:33 am

Watching Splice (not my choice).
God is this bad.
The script is just pitiful. Pitiful.
And the director should probably be shot.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by crumbsroom » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:38 am

Wooley wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:33 am
Watching Splice (not my choice).
God is this bad.
The script is just pitiful. Pitiful.
And the director should probably be shot.
It is the worst
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:21 am

My biggest regret was not disliking the Wind so I could say in earnest “The Wind blows.”
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by DaMU » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:36 am

Hausu (1977) - B

14-year-old DaMU might've loved it. 37-year-old DaMU (Jesus Christ) appreciates its nonstop imagination but wishes it didn't ride on that constant zany pitch. I needed some more valleys to give the peaks a sense of relief (and relief). The piano sequence was my favorite, although a close runner-up to any shot that tracks/pans to reveal the clapping skeleton. Love that dude.
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:38 am

14 Year Old DaMU>37 Year Old DaMU.

Wait... I’m not sure that comes off right...
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by DaMU » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:50 am

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:38 am
14 Year Old DaMU>37 Year Old DaMU.

Wait... I’m not sure that comes off right...
The authorities have been notified. Along with arresting you on "creepo" charges, they'll also include a count of "being wrong."
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:55 am

DaMU wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:50 am
The authorities have been notified. Along with arresting you on "creepo" charges, they'll also include a count of "being wrong."
Have mercy and just leave me to my zany teenage Japanese girls!

Goddamn it, Hausu! Is there any way to talk about you without adding more charges?
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by DaMU » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:27 am

I also liked the part when the girl got head--

a head! A head! A zombie head!

[distant sirens growing]
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Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by Rock » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:31 am

DaMU wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:36 am
Hausu (1977) - B

14-year-old DaMU might've loved it. 37-year-old DaMU (Jesus Christ) appreciates its nonstop imagination but wishes it didn't ride on that constant zany pitch. I needed some more valleys to give the peaks a sense of relief (and relief). The piano sequence was my favorite, although a close runner-up to any shot that tracks/pans to reveal the clapping skeleton. Love that dude.
I can see where you're coming from, but I think the movie's constantly evolving visual style (taking up and dropping flourishes from scene to scene) and the way it shifts from lightheated and zany to darker (but still zany) give it a sense of progression that help the manic approach from becoming numbing. I probably have a higher tolerance for this sort of thing though, as I'm also a big fan of the similarly bananas The Boxer's Omen. (That movie grounds its frantic approach by structuring it around a few key confrontations, so it might offer a bit more of the relief you're looking for in between its extended bursts of insanity.)
"We're outgunned and undermanned. But you know somethin'? We're gonna win. You know why? Superior attitude. Superior state of mind." - Mason Storm
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Blog!
ThatDarnMKS
Posts: 3234
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:39 pm

Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:33 am

DaMU wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:27 am
I also liked the part when the girl got head--

a head! A head! A zombie head!

[distant sirens growing]
*Debates jokes about girl getting eaten... by a piano!*

*slinks away from internet forever*
ThatDarnMKS
Posts: 3234
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:39 pm

Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:34 am

*slinks back to internet*

Boxer’s Omen is the bee’s knees.
ThatDarnMKS
Posts: 3234
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:39 pm

Re: Horrorcram XV: Let's Scare Corrierino To Death

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:30 am

So I worked my way through all of Into the Dark on Hulu and am now working my way through the Shudder originals. It's amusing as I'm sure both have similar mandates and budgets, as well as many plot and thematic similarities, but the overall quality of the Shudder originals so thoroughly CRUSH the quality of Into the Dark that it's almost mind boggling. I don't want to sell the Shudder Originals too highly, but I haven't disliked any of them and even those that fall short, have a passion to them that only the few best of ITD seemed to match.

Anyone taken a similar mission?
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