Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

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ThatDarnMKS
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 6:30 pm

MrCarmady wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:11 pm
Isn't a level of craft also quite subjective, though? I like Baby Driver, as I've said, but I used to think of performances as a technical element of a film, and yet in this thread, there's a plethora of assessments of Hamm, Foxx, Elgort, James, and Spacey in the film which range from good to awful, so clearly that's subjective. And if that's subjective, then why can't an editor's or a cinematographer's work be?
It’s all ultimately a subjective qualitative assessment of art. However, that is not to say there isn’t an objectivity at hand in assessing those elements and cinematography and editing are less nebulous than performance or narrative.

For instance, there’s a Len Kabasinski film (I think Curse of the Wolf) that has an occasional, nonsensical flash of black across the screen. This is objectively known as a ripple and means the editor didn’t know about ripple deletion. This is textbook poor editing. Now one could read intent into it and argue it, such is the nature of subjective discourse, but it would either come off as Armond White levels of contrarian or ignorant of the craft and art behind editing.

They’re all “opinions” but the issue isn’t one of rightness or wrongness at that point but rather informed and uninformed, knowledgeable or ignorant, supported or unsupported.

Due to the aforementioned level of objectivity to assessing craft, it’s often a stronger indicator of quality filmmaking than assessing other elements of film. It’s much easier to “prove” that a film is poorly shot than to “prove” that a film is boring.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by takeshi » Thu May 21, 2020 6:32 pm

Of course it's yours to reject entirely. I'd be a bored camper if everyone kumbaya'd about what makes film so great. You're talking about execution and that in itself is subjective, even if it exists as objectively good within the craft. I'm quite airy fairy with all this, but if a film's execution fails to ignite any imagination into what it communicates then I'm not going to be enthused. Appreciating film as an art form also requires placing it within the realm of art overall. That doesn't mean separating it completely from its filmic attributes because of course each medium is different in how its works are composed and this should be appreciated and observed.

I don't discount technical artistry nor do I favour subjective emotional responses to narrative. That is an assumption on your part. A lot of films I love lack narrative or any discernible emotional response spots. I'm all about what it's communicating and what effectively comes out of that. You can find craft to be all that it needs to communicate and that's fine, but it is a bit naive to assume that others who think differently are doing a disservice to the art form by focusing instead on assumed handpicked elements that you personally find lesser (sorry if I'm returning an assumption with an assumption).

I would ask, what does Baby Driver communicate exactly? What are the central ideas its trying to convey within its masterful craft? Can mastery substitute everything else that makes art human? IS technical mastery what is 'human' to you? I don't really care about Baby Driver either way but I'm curious.
"your review shows me only that you dont understand anything about movies and that you are a untalented wanna bee filmmaker with no balls and no understanding what POSTAL is. you dont see courage because you are nothing. and no go to your mum and fuck her …because she cooks for you now since 30 years ..so she deserves it." — Uwe Boll

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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by takeshi » Thu May 21, 2020 6:33 pm

Doh of course there are replies before I could hit send. Oh well, away to walk the dog.
"your review shows me only that you dont understand anything about movies and that you are a untalented wanna bee filmmaker with no balls and no understanding what POSTAL is. you dont see courage because you are nothing. and no go to your mum and fuck her …because she cooks for you now since 30 years ..so she deserves it." — Uwe Boll

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ThatDarnMKS
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 6:33 pm

Captain Terror wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:18 pm
I'll concede this, for sure. I wouldn't have described it as a "piece of shit". I think my use of "dillweed" was completely justified, however. ;)
And this is the crux of my argument. I dislike the dismissal of films that clearly took extreme amounts of talent and craft as “pieces of shit” because you don’t like the narrative tone. Disliking it is fine. “Not for me. It annoyed me.” Perfectly okay. I’ll disagree but the assessment of such are as “pieces of shit,” “garbage,” or “worthless” has that same myopia of people shitting on Miles Davis because Bitches Brew doesn’t have a catchy hook or saying the Mona Lisa should’ve had a sexier subject.

It’s confusing ones own taste for the talent of the artist.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by crumbsroom » Thu May 21, 2020 6:48 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:03 pm
consider anyone that sees something with a high level of craft on display and dismisses the film as valueless doesn’t really give a shit about film as an art form.
I wasn't aware art and craft were one and the same thing. Complimentary, in best case scenarios, but hardly twins in the creative process.

And this argument that if we can find an element of a film that works either well or even spectacularly, and that if all that surrounds it strikes one as subjective nonsense or pandering empty bullshit, that we can't dismiss it as such is abject bonkers nonsense. Everyone does this to some level, and I have zero doubt you do as well. There are probably elements of art that you don't even consider before you write them off because of the fact you didn't value them for you own subjective reasons. If you found out that the swim trunks in Sleepaway Camp were somehow brilliantly designed by the costume department, you've got no idea how precisely constructed those swim trunks were for the era, or the work that went involved in them, let's not pretend you would suddenly re-evaluate the the film. Or at least I hope you wouldn't. Because that would be dumb. And, yes, I'm using a deliberately dumb example because I want it known I can't be bothered to think of a more respectable example considering how ridiculous your above claim is.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by takeshi » Thu May 21, 2020 6:50 pm

Sometimes "piece of shit" is just hyperbolic fun. I don't think anyone is truly punching their pillow over their hatred of a Edgar Wright film. It might offend your sensibilities but whatever. Your examples are just ignorance to craft completely (and to contextual interest and to creative ideas and so on, which something like Bitches Brew has tons of).
"your review shows me only that you dont understand anything about movies and that you are a untalented wanna bee filmmaker with no balls and no understanding what POSTAL is. you dont see courage because you are nothing. and no go to your mum and fuck her …because she cooks for you now since 30 years ..so she deserves it." — Uwe Boll

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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by Rock » Thu May 21, 2020 6:56 pm

Captain Terror's pot shot at Yngwie Malmsteen is my favourite thing to come of this discussion.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by Captain Terror » Thu May 21, 2020 6:56 pm

takeshi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:50 pm
Sometimes "piece of shit" is just hyperbole fun.
I was about to post something similar. Reading someone's rant about something they don't like is just as entertaining as reading gushing praise (sometimes more so), so I generally let such things slide in the spirit of the moment. I do it all the time myself.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 6:58 pm

takeshi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:33 pm
Doh of course there are replies before I could hit send. Oh well, away to walk the dog.
To answer the part of the post I don’t think I addressed with subsequent posts, I think Baby Driver is communicating the relationship we have with music. It’s woven into the narrative, given that it’s how Baby remembers his mother, finds his lover, expresses himself artistically and is used as his character gimmick. Of course, it’s also the overwhelming stylistic choice and virtually everything creatively is dictated by the music and timing of the music, which Wright metatextually pokes at with Baby refusing to do the heist unless it’s timed to the right song.

Do I think it’s a particularly deep film? Absolutely not.

However, it could be saying nothing at all and I’d argue that the expression of technical deftness is value in and of itself. A magic trick doesn’t have to teach me anything profound to impress and the relation between film and magic is about as strong as it’s relation to literature, theater and photography.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by crumbsroom » Thu May 21, 2020 7:00 pm

I hope we're going to have some walking back of all the trash talking poor Wooley's The Final Terror received. Because it sure seemed there was a lot of dismissals happening there, even though I'm sure Wooley had contrary arguments. But, oh, they weren't regarding technical craft, so those don't count. How silly of me.

And maybe we can start annotating our rankings out of ten so that we can parse every element on its own, and don't have to mistakenly create the illusion of worthlessness

Babydriver 1/10*

*except for that tracking shot which I give a 7/10
*or the editing to the beat of The Damned's Neat Neat Neat which most definitely was an 8/10
*oh, but Jon Hamm's performance definitely a fart/10

Final score overall:

Babydriver 1/10
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by takeshi » Thu May 21, 2020 7:01 pm

Captain Terror wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:56 pm
I was about to post something similar. Reading someone's rant about something they don't like is just as entertaining as reading gushing praise (sometimes more so), so I generally let such things slide in the spirit of the moment. I do it all the time myself.
"Baby Driver is a piece of fucking dogshit! I'd rather have anal tearings in my asshole after a mountainous shit than hear one note of Hocus Pocus!"

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"your review shows me only that you dont understand anything about movies and that you are a untalented wanna bee filmmaker with no balls and no understanding what POSTAL is. you dont see courage because you are nothing. and no go to your mum and fuck her …because she cooks for you now since 30 years ..so she deserves it." — Uwe Boll

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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 7:09 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:48 pm
I wasn't aware art and craft were one and the same thing. Complimentary, in best case scenarios, but hardly twins in the creative process.

And this argument that if we can find an element of a film that works either well or even spectacularly, and that if all that surrounds it strikes one as subjective nonsense or pandering empty bullshit, that we can't dismiss it as such is abject bonkers nonsense. Everyone does this to some level, and I have zero doubt you do as well. There are probably elements of art that you don't even consider before you write them off because of the fact you didn't value them for you own subjective reasons. If you found out that the swim trunks in Sleepaway Camp were somehow brilliantly designed by the costume department, you've got no idea how precisely constructed those swim trunks were for the era, or the work that went involved in them, let's not pretend you would suddenly re-evaluate the the film. Or at least I hope you wouldn't. Because that would be dumb. And, yes, I'm using a deliberately dumb example because I want it known I can't be bothered to think of a more respectable example considering how ridiculous your above claim is.
Craft is a pivotal element of art, yes. They are not synonymous but to not value craft is to not value the art form (form being as important as the word art).

And I would fully understand the perspective of someone taking issue with me calling Sleepaway Camp a piece of shit (which I haven’t. If you read my remarks, I talk about how I don’t particularly like it but never claim it to be of no worth) if they were revealing my own ignorance of that element of the film. However, I usually hesitate to toss around hyperbolic bullshit unless the film has done something to maliciously offend (Asylum, Uwe Boll, the like).

I took issue with your phrasing as it’s indicative of an attitude I dislike in film criticism. Being hyperbolically shitty towards a film or filmmaker that is clearly doing nothing to offend or insult just strikes me as someone that can’t empathize with how difficult the art form is.

By all means, call the film a piece of shit. I’ll just feel similarly about the way you expressed your distaste.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by crumbsroom » Thu May 21, 2020 7:09 pm

Rock wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:56 pm
Captain Terror's pot shot at Yngwie Malmsteen is my favourite thing to come of this discussion.
How can he not come up in this discussion. He's the poster boy for this tired and pointless debate where someone call pull off the miraculous ability to call his music total shit, and recognize his obvious technical brilliance.

How do they do that exactly?

It will forever be a mystery.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by crumbsroom » Thu May 21, 2020 7:11 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:09 pm
Craft is a pivotal element of art, yes. They are not synonymous but to not value craft is to not value the art form (form being as important as the word art).

And I would fully understand the perspective of someone taking issue with me calling Sleepaway Camp a piece of shit (which I haven’t. If you read my remarks, I talk about how I don’t particularly like it but never claim it to be of no worth) if they were revealing my own ignorance of that element of the film. However, I usually hesitate to toss around hyperbolic bullshit unless the film has done something to maliciously offend (Asylum, Uwe Boll, the like).

I took issue with your phrasing as it’s indicative of an attitude I dislike in film criticism. Being hyperbolically shitty towards a film or filmmaker that is clearly doing nothing to offend or insult just strikes me as someone that can’t empathize with how difficult the art form is.

By all means, call the film a piece of shit. I’ll just feel similarly about the way you expressed your distaste.
Can I call it a waste of my time? Or will that have to go through HR as well?
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 7:11 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:00 pm
I hope we're going to have some walking back of all the trash talking poor Wooley's The Final Terror received. Because it sure seemed there was a lot of dismissals happening there, even though I'm sure Wooley had contrary arguments. But, oh, they weren't regarding technical craft, so those don't count. How silly of me.

And maybe we can start annotating our rankings out of ten so that we can parse every element on its own, and don't have to mistakenly create the illusion of worthlessness

Babydriver 1/10*

*except for that tracking shot which I give a 7/10
*or the editing to the beat of The Damned's Neat Neat Neat which most definitely was an 8/10
*oh, but Jon Hamm's performance definitely a fart/10

Final score overall:

Babydriver 1/10

Why would I walk back my discourse with Wooley? I expressed what I didn’t like about the film and asked him what he did like. You’re asking like me calling out your driveling hyperbole means I think people can’t dislike films or argue about them.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 7:12 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:11 pm
Can I call it a waste of my time? Or will that have to go through HR as well?
HR approves as it keeps it you centered rather than creates the implication that the film is valueless.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by takeshi » Thu May 21, 2020 7:17 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:12 pm
HR approves as it keeps it you centered rather than creates the implication that the film is valueless.
But a film's value is subjective so I'm struggling to follow this. "Baby Driver is worthless" is still a 'you' statement. We're getting into some "um, in your opinion" high school discourse here.
"your review shows me only that you dont understand anything about movies and that you are a untalented wanna bee filmmaker with no balls and no understanding what POSTAL is. you dont see courage because you are nothing. and no go to your mum and fuck her …because she cooks for you now since 30 years ..so she deserves it." — Uwe Boll

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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by crumbsroom » Thu May 21, 2020 7:21 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:12 pm
HR approves as it keeps it you centered rather than creates the implication that the film is valueless.
It still ends up without having any value to me.

You should still be outraged.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 7:24 pm

takeshi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:17 pm
But a film's value is subjective so I'm struggling to follow this. "Baby Driver is worthless" is still a 'you' statement. We're getting into some "um, in your opinion" high school discourse here.
Language is a fickle thing and the way we phrase things are often more important than the content itself. For someone relegating this conversation to HS level, recognizing that is Comm. 101 level concept for you to not be grasping.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by crumbsroom » Thu May 21, 2020 7:24 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:11 pm
Why would I walk back my discourse with Wooley? I expressed what I didn’t like about the film and asked him what he did like. You’re asking like me calling out your driveling hyperbole means I think people can’t dislike films or argue about them.
I've got a suspicion I could pull out fragments of what you said about that film that could insinuate the films lack of worth to you. Or at least elements of. Elements that people may have worked hard on and who might not appreciate being so cavalierly dismissed. Because that's what this is about, right. Your assumption that I dismissed parts of a movie that I wasn't even talking about in the same context as you.

It's real easy to find a turn of phrase that might offend. Drivelling or not.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 7:25 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:21 pm
It still ends up without having any value to me.

You should still be outraged.
Alright. I’ll still be outraged but only because I trust your opinion on things not related to Baby Driver.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 7:26 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:24 pm
I've got a suspicion I could pull out fragments of what you said about that film that could insinuate the films lack of worth to you. Or at least elements of. Elements that people may have worked hard on and who might not appreciate being so cavalierly dismissed. Because that's what this is about, right. Your assumption that I dismissed parts of a movie that I wasn't even talking about in the same context as you.

It's real easy to find a turn of phrase that might offend. Drivelling or not.
Which is why I specifically highlighted that turn of phrase I took issue with.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by takeshi » Thu May 21, 2020 7:28 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:24 pm
Language is a fickle thing and the way we phrase things are often more important than the content itself. For someone relegating this conversation to HS level, recognizing that is Comm. 101 level concept for you to not be grasping.
I mean we all must be morons here cause it's not just me who isn't grasping what you're saying.
"your review shows me only that you dont understand anything about movies and that you are a untalented wanna bee filmmaker with no balls and no understanding what POSTAL is. you dont see courage because you are nothing. and no go to your mum and fuck her …because she cooks for you now since 30 years ..so she deserves it." — Uwe Boll

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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by crumbsroom » Thu May 21, 2020 7:30 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:25 pm
Alright. I’ll still be outraged but only because I trust your opinion on things not related to Baby Driver.
Give it a few years. You'll thank me for my forward thinking ;)
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 7:31 pm

takeshi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:28 pm
I mean we all must be morons here cause it's not just me who isn't grasping what you're saying.
I specifically took issue with his phrasing and the meaning of that phrase in relation to discussing the film.

Phrasing is often as or more important than content.

This is a basic concept of communication and acting like me taking issue with his phrasing is High School level betrays an understanding of communication in the first place.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 7:32 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:30 pm
Give it a few years. You'll thank me for my forward thinking ;)
Wait... I’m thanking you for the outrage, right? And I’ve gotta stay outraged for years?!?

This was a real monkey’s paw conversation.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by Takoma1 » Thu May 21, 2020 7:40 pm

2+ pages of discussion on Baby Driver.

Arguments about semantics.

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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by crumbsroom » Thu May 21, 2020 7:43 pm

Takoma1 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:40 pm
2+ pages of discussion on Baby Driver.

Arguments about semantics.

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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by takeshi » Thu May 21, 2020 7:43 pm

It's high school level when you assert the notion of value as something that isn't interpretative on behalf of the individual viewer. You're attaching fixed value onto an ever shifting ethereal art form that language fails to even conclusively describe. Of course, there's centuries worth of arts criticism and academia that attempts to grapple with this concept. It all feels like a trivial semantic issue more than anything.
"your review shows me only that you dont understand anything about movies and that you are a untalented wanna bee filmmaker with no balls and no understanding what POSTAL is. you dont see courage because you are nothing. and no go to your mum and fuck her …because she cooks for you now since 30 years ..so she deserves it." — Uwe Boll

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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by crumbsroom » Thu May 21, 2020 7:43 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:32 pm
Wait... I’m thanking you for the outrage, right? And I’ve gotta stay outraged for years?!?
Yes.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 7:49 pm

takeshi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:43 pm
It's high school level when you assert the notion of value as something that isn't interpretative on behalf of the individual viewer. You're attaching fixed value onto an ever shifting ethereal art form that language fails to even conclusively describe. Of course, there's centuries worth of arts criticism and academia that attempts to grapple with this concept. It all feels like a trivial semantic issue more than anything.
Of course it’s a trivial semantics issue. We’re on a message board! Come on, man.

Also, I’m not attaching fixed value. I’m arguing about where I find value and why I take issue with that specific, trivial turn of phrase.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 7:51 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:43 pm
Yes.
Well, I just flipped a table and I know it won’t be the last. IKEA is gonna rue the day it re-opens.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 7:51 pm

Takoma1 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:40 pm
2+ pages of discussion on Baby Driver.

Arguments about semantics.

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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by Ergill » Thu May 21, 2020 8:04 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:25 pm
I have no doubt there are endless critics out there, both paid for their work and not paid, that can be dug up. I just haven't managed to dig much, and have long since bothered trying. My gripe centers around those who get good gigs for writing about films, and as I'm mentioned before, seem to neither write nor think nor even feel about them. Even if they legitimately enjoyed what they watched, and I have no reason to claim otherwise for any of Babydrivers copious fans, they fact is they still write as if they have simply put up their finger to see which way the wind blows. It is both uninspired and it is lazy and they get to be defaulted as the so called experts. As far as I'm concerned they are negligent in their duty, even if the world now wants the movie critic's duty to serve a more utilitarian purpose for the public good and they are probably doing exactly this.
I don't follow many critics or read a lot of reviews either. I had been trolling through Matt Zoller Seitz's "30 Minutes on" compendium. He has one Baby Driver hohohohoho:

https://www.rogerebert.com/mzs/the-hist ... minutes-on

*whoopy cushion*
crumbsroom wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:25 pm
But I will never stop griping about the world diverging from how I want it to be. One needs a reason to growl after all.
There's plenty to gripe about. I just thought you're grudging hat-tip to White. He almost ruined criticism for contrarians. Also just wanted to keep the distinction in mind between what someone likes and how well they wrote about anything. I thought the latter sounded the crux of the problem.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by Jinnistan » Thu May 21, 2020 8:12 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:33 pm
people shitting on Miles Davis because Bitches Brew doesn’t have a catchy hook
??? That bass clarinet gets in my cheek every time.

Baby Driver could have used more "Spanish Key" breaks, imho.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 8:12 pm

Ergill wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:04 pm
I don't follow many critics or read a lot of reviews either. I had been trolling through Matt Zoller Seitz's "30 Minutes on" compendium. He has one Baby Driver hohohohoho:

https://www.rogerebert.com/mzs/the-hist ... minutes-on

*whoopy cushion*


There's plenty to gripe about. I just thought you're grudging hat-tip to White. He almost ruined criticism for contrarians. Also just wanted to keep the distinction in mind between what someone likes and how well they wrote about anything. I thought the latter sounded the crux of the problem.
MZS is one of my favorite current critics and his write up of Baby Driver hits about exactly where I am on the film.

I’ve interacted with him several times on Twitter and he’s a lot more magnanimous to his followers and willing to prop them up than smaller critics/film twitter personalities.

Sad to see that his personal life is in such a tragic state (lost his wife to cancer amidst the pandemic).
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 8:13 pm

Jinnistan wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:12 pm
??? That bass clarinet gets in my cheek every time.

Baby Driver could have used more "Spanish Key" breaks, imho.
Well now we’re on the same page.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by Ergill » Thu May 21, 2020 8:25 pm

takeshi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:17 pm
But a film's value is subjective so I'm struggling to follow this. "Baby Driver is worthless" is still a 'you' statement. We're getting into some "um, in your opinion" high school discourse here.
Ultimately value doesn't stop when the credits roll. We can judge judgments too, and we do *points up*. As people who watch more movies than most, like to talk about and assess them, we'll invariably step on some toes now and again. In most cases, people's different assessments don't have to conflict. They're just flourishing in their own way, basking on their own peaks rather than trying to reach some mystical, universal Everest of value. Other times, not so much. We've based our judgments on certain readings of the content of the film, or understandings of the world, or chains of reasoning, which can't all be shrugged off as an anything-goes affair. Or we bring different philosophies to bear on what we think makes a better film viewer. MKS thinks that any film buff worth their salt should be able to tip their hat to technical mastery even in cases where they otherwise hate the movie. It's a sort of bias, sensitivity, or complexity check, however you decide to cut it up. Crumbs feels like this is slagging on his right to tell technical mastery to fuck right off. These might not have to conflict, but for now they do, and people can suss out what matters to them or what they think should matter to them in hashing that out.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by Ergill » Thu May 21, 2020 8:26 pm

ThatDarnMKS wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:12 pm
MZS is one of my favorite current critics and his write up of Baby Driver hits about exactly where I am on the film.

I’ve interacted with him several times on Twitter and he’s a lot more magnanimous to his followers and willing to prop them up than smaller critics/film twitter personalities.

Sad to see that his personal life is in such a tragic state (lost his wife to cancer amidst the pandemic).
Same.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by takeshi » Thu May 21, 2020 8:50 pm

Ergill wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:25 pm
Ultimately value doesn't stop when the credits roll. We can judge judgments too, and we do *points up*. As people who watch more movies than most, like to talk about and assess them, we'll invariably step on some toes now and again. In most cases, people's different assessments don't have to conflict. They're just flourishing in their own way, basking on their own peaks rather than trying to reach some mystical, universal Everest of value. Other times, not so much. We've based our judgments on certain readings of the content of the film, or understandings of the world, or chains of reasoning, which can't all be shrugged off as an anything-goes affair. Or we bring different philosophies to bear on what we think makes a better film viewer. MKS thinks that any film buff worth their salt should be able to tip their hat to technical mastery even in cases where they otherwise hate the movie. It's a sort of bias, sensitivity, or complexity check, however you decide to cut it up. Crumbs feels like this is slagging on his right to tell technical mastery to fuck right off. These might not have to conflict, but for now they do, and people can suss out what matters to them or what they think should matter to them in hashing that out.
I agree with all of this fwiw. Tho the axe falls down for me way nearer Crumbs' point of view, so I'm just batting on the side of that. A technician and an artist are on different creative wavelengths but the eternal question is whether these things always have some semblance of intersecting constantly. And how to define craft even? Where does the avant-garde fall into this question when the craft is not standardised?
"your review shows me only that you dont understand anything about movies and that you are a untalented wanna bee filmmaker with no balls and no understanding what POSTAL is. you dont see courage because you are nothing. and no go to your mum and fuck her …because she cooks for you now since 30 years ..so she deserves it." — Uwe Boll

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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by takeshi » Thu May 21, 2020 9:00 pm

I just beat my high score in Kirby's Pinball Land
"your review shows me only that you dont understand anything about movies and that you are a untalented wanna bee filmmaker with no balls and no understanding what POSTAL is. you dont see courage because you are nothing. and no go to your mum and fuck her …because she cooks for you now since 30 years ..so she deserves it." — Uwe Boll

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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by Rock » Thu May 21, 2020 9:23 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:09 pm
How can he not come up in this discussion. He's the poster boy for this tired and pointless debate where someone call pull off the miraculous ability to call his music total shit, and recognize his obvious technical brilliance.

How do they do that exactly?

It will forever be a mystery.
It mostly amused me for its specificity. I actually do like some of his music (Alcatrazz's No Parole for Rock 'n' Roll).
"We're outgunned and undermanned. But you know somethin'? We're gonna win. You know why? Superior attitude. Superior state of mind." - Mason Storm
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by Charles » Thu May 21, 2020 9:59 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:24 pm
I almost miss Armond White, even though he was both a clown and a troll.
Was he a clown and a troll though? Maybe it's just me being pathologically charitable, but I thought the 2 or 3 reviews I read of him all had something interesting to say, even though they typically went overboard at some point.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by takeshi » Thu May 21, 2020 10:13 pm

He thinks in absolutes constantly. It's hard to tell his genuine opinions from his contrarian opinions though he is entertaining. I don't even know if his Trump support is contrarian or not. Then again, MAGAs do love to think in absolutes about the world.
"your review shows me only that you dont understand anything about movies and that you are a untalented wanna bee filmmaker with no balls and no understanding what POSTAL is. you dont see courage because you are nothing. and no go to your mum and fuck her …because she cooks for you now since 30 years ..so she deserves it." — Uwe Boll

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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by crumbsroom » Thu May 21, 2020 10:44 pm

Charles wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:59 pm
Was he a clown and a troll though? Maybe it's just me being pathologically charitable, but I thought the 2 or 3 reviews I read of him all had something interesting to say, even though they typically went overboard at some point.
As far as I know about him, he had legit cred as a film critic. Then turned this insight into some kind of silly moral crusade (clown). Then it seemed he relished his notoriety and began writing absurd shit to wind fan boys and (I think) liberals up (troll).

The guy was insufferable, but as mentioned, could be entertaining in his demented way.

I only brought him up, mostly as a counter point to how bored I am with most critics and because he at least was different . You knew who he was through his prose. Or at least who he was pretending to be.

I can't even be bothered to become infuriated with modern critics. I have to lump them all together in an amorphous mass for them to even start riling me up. It's a crime
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by crumbsroom » Thu May 21, 2020 10:45 pm

Ergill wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:04 pm
I don't follow many critics or read a lot of reviews either. I had been trolling through Matt Zoller Seitz's "30 Minutes on" compendium. He has one Baby Driver hohohohoho:

https://www.rogerebert.com/mzs/the-hist ... minutes-on

*whoopy cushion*
I should probably check him out.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by crumbsroom » Thu May 21, 2020 11:04 pm

Ergill wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:25 pm
Ultimately value doesn't stop when the credits roll. We can judge judgments too, and we do *points up*. As people who watch more movies than most, like to talk about and assess them, we'll invariably step on some toes now and again. In most cases, people's different assessments don't have to conflict. They're just flourishing in their own way, basking on their own peaks rather than trying to reach some mystical, universal Everest of value. Other times, not so much. We've based our judgments on certain readings of the content of the film, or understandings of the world, or chains of reasoning, which can't all be shrugged off as an anything-goes affair. Or we bring different philosophies to bear on what we think makes a better film viewer. MKS thinks that any film buff worth their salt should be able to tip their hat to technical mastery even in cases where they otherwise hate the movie. It's a sort of bias, sensitivity, or complexity check, however you decide to cut it up. Crumbs feels like this is slagging on his right to tell technical mastery to fuck right off. These might not have to conflict, but for now they do, and people can suss out what matters to them or what they think should matter to them in hashing that out.
Yes to all of this, especially when you get to the part of telling technical mastery to fuck off. That was the best part.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by Captain Terror » Thu May 21, 2020 11:08 pm

Rock wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:23 pm
It mostly amused me for its specificity. I actually do like some of his music (Alcatrazz's No Parole for Rock 'n' Roll).
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Thu May 21, 2020 11:15 pm

Ergill wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:25 pm
MKS thinks that any film buff worth their salt should be able to tip their hat to technical mastery even in cases where they otherwise hate the movie. It's a sort of bias, sensitivity, or complexity check, however you decide to cut it up.
Which ultimately only matters if one cares that I think they’re worth their salt.

Which everyone clearly should, cuz look at me. I’m great.

But yeah. Keep being the voice of reason, Ergill.
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Re: Watching Movies Alone with crumbsroom

Post by Apex Predator » Thu May 21, 2020 11:47 pm

I'm on board Team Baby Driver except for the last half hour which reminded me too much...of Madea Goes to Jail.
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