I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

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Thief
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Thief » Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:10 pm

Given how the discourse about these films is nowadays, I feel the need to start with a preamble stating that I have no anger towards anyone that disagrees, and just feel like discussing and arguing what the films bring...
The Nameless One wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:10 pm
I fully understand that this operates on a spectrum, their are clearly exceptions to the math, but it's clear that the critical trajectory of TROS is a direct result of TLJ's reception - something shook Disney. The critical reception towards TROS points towards the problems TLJ introduced in terms of concluding this trilogy. TLJ dismantled TFA - like, what is Abrams supposed to do now that Johnson killed his big bad, Snoke? Revive Palpatine or whatever, lol. The big problem with TLJ is it was conclusive, and that's not the role of the fulcrum in a trilogy, there is not a lot of room for development past it's point so the writers of 3 are left with a monumental task of re-piecing the trilogy together in some cohesive manner. Combined with TLJ's overall, all things considered, reception, this equates to playing it safe as is the critics suggest. Nothing about TROS's reception surprises me, TLJ is an impossible movie to follow up, and I don't exactly consider this a fault of it as an individual thing... I'm fine with TLJ's anarchy... but it doesn't play nice with others

It's also worth noting the box office math. TLJ made significantly less than TFA, word of mouth obviously being a proponent to that. I'm sure Disney wasn't pleased with the receding returns.
I'm no screenwriter, but I strongly disagree with the premise that the problems were introduced by TLJ or that it "dismantled TFA". Having rewatched/watched all three films within the last weeks, I can say that most of the most contentious points about TLJ were introduced by Abrams itself in TFA, or were even transposed from the OT. From Luke "vanishing" and living like a hermit, to Rey's background. As for Snoke being killed, I seriously fail to understand how is that a problem. It only sets up Kylo as a more powerful presence and sets the stage for him to be the main focus. Why do we need another "big bad"? IMO, TLJ opens up a lot more possibilities for the story to follow through, which makes some of the choices Abrams make in TROS all the more baffling.

Which leads me into my next point, and where I put most of the "blame", if we're to call it that. I'm seriously dumbfounded as to what was Disney's plan with this trilogy in terms of story. For a company so big and so apparently in control of their products, it's just inexplicable that they might give such free reign to their directors/writers without so much of a template or roadmap, a blueprint for the story and the characters. Sure, now that we have two Abrams-directed films with Rian Johnson stuck in the middle, his feels like the odd one out, but that wasn't the plan in the beginning. Where would've Colin Trevorrow taken the story if he had directed Episode IX? It's as if Disney wanted to give creative freedom to the filmmakers, only to pull the reigns after the fact. If TLJ was so contentious to their "plan", why did they greenlight it? Why didn't they rework the script, reshoot scenes, etc.? They did it with Rogue One and Solo. But no, it was only after the polarizing reactions started coming in that they decided to back down, and not commit to their already released product. In that aspect, I agree that TROS is a direct result of TLJ, or at least to the reaction to TLJ.

In the end, it all boils down to Abrams trying to go back to what he feels was the story he started in TFA (a story he wasn't meant to finish in the first place), but I really put the weight of the blame on how Disney handled the logistics of the whole trilogy to begin with.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by DaMU » Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:06 pm

I'm of two minds on the "planning" notion. I agree that a lack of planning has negatively impacted some elements of the trilogy, but I also find that big-budget planning typically results (IMHO) in films that feel fine but sometimes stifling and rarely invigorating. Ignoring the obvious Marvel parallel (for reasons of my own sanity), think of how films like Back to the Future and The Matrix had back-to-back carefully planned sequels that rarely came alive as much as their originators (I like all those sequels, they're just not in the same league). Also, while the original trilogy was shepherded by Lucas, sequels were not a sure thing after the original film was produced, and we know now that a lot of the story was created from movie to movie-- not predetermined outside of the crudest of outlines. (Basically, it's because those films weren't carefully planned that we get things as good as Han frozen in carbonite and things as not-good as Leia learning about her heritage with dull-face.)

One of the things that makes this series interesting, to me, is that, like Evil Dead and Mad Max, it's a series that's constantly in dialogue with itself, as different creatives (or the same creative later in life) come at the material from different angles, emphasizing different things. It lacks the consistency of those series, but it carries some of the same admirable reinvention/scrappiness.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:17 pm

Thief wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:10 pm
In the end, it all boils down to Abrams trying to go back to what he feels was the story he started in TFA (a story he wasn't meant to finish in the first place), but I really put the weight of the blame on how Disney handled the logistics of the whole trilogy to begin with.
Of course this is ultimately Disney's fault but in regards to the planning argument, I feel like TFA laid a perfect foundation for this series to go to the point where I don't understand how Rian Johnson could (SUBJECTIVITY ALERT SUBJECTIVITY ALERT) fuck it all up so badly, especially if, as you say, he was given some serious free reign with this project. It may seem like I'm singing TFA's praises but I think that movie is not very good as well, particularly the retreaded third act, but in it's safety you have literally the perfect template for two... and this is what Rian Johnson does with it... no, not the Luke stuff, that's fine, but, like, Canto Bight. Someone PLEASE explain that shit to me, why wasn't that cut? Why was everything between Rose and Finn so inconsequential when this precious time could've been spent... doing something completely different. Rian Johnson's decisions are BAFFLING in that movie, I do not at all understand how you seasoned film consumers can forgive it's shit. Why is this conflict so forced as a result of the script being written like a madcap comedy of errors on behalf of the Rebel Alliance? Why is purple haired lady single handily screwing her cause? I've had this discourse with people and no one has been able to give me a clear picture beyond "I dunno, I just liked it". Frankly, I find it kinda embarrassing that a Star Wars movie has stumped so many people, and why people are even being protective of it in the first place. It's a Disney movie for christ sake, it's McDonalds cinema
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Rock » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:56 am

So, about this new Star War...

I liked individual bits and bobs (the aesthetics of the Sith planet, C-3PO, Lando's scenes...except maybe his line at the end) but a lot of it felt really rushed. I don't how much of it was due to Abrams trying to "correct the course" after The Last Jedi (which I kinda hated, but I don't think that's much of a hot take) so much as having a lot of content he wanted to get through and not nearly enough time to get through it properly. Honestly, another half hour to just let different moments breathe might have made this a lot more enjoyable for me. As it is, the movie felt kinda...fine, I guess.

But back on topic, I would rank the First Order in between the FBI in Richard Jewell and the cartels in The Mule as far as villains go. Lando might have been more plausible in the threesome scenes in The Mule, though.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by ThatDarnMKS » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:22 am

Rock wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:56 am
So, about this new Star War...

I liked individual bits and bobs (the aesthetics of the Sith planet, C-3PO, Lando's scenes...except maybe his line at the end) but a lot of it felt really rushed. I don't how much of it was due to Abrams trying to "correct the course" after The Last Jedi (which I kinda hated, but I don't think that's much of a hot take) so much as having a lot of content he wanted to get through and not nearly enough time to get through it properly. Honestly, another half hour to just let different moments breathe might have made this a lot more enjoyable for me. As it is, the movie felt kinda...fine, I guess.

But back on topic, I would rank the First Order in between the FBI in Richard Jewell and the cartels in The Mule as far as villains go. Lando might have been more plausible in the threesome scenes in The Mule, though.
I agree with this take for the most part. I wish they’d given JJ a full 3 hours. I feel like it would have worked wonders.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Guy in the Trenchcoat » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:48 am

The Force Awakens made me feel nothing.
The Last Jedi made me feel things.
Rise of Skywalker made me only feel bad things.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Death Proof » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:01 pm

Here is a baby Yoda to make everyone feel better.

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Ain't no grave gonna hold this body down
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Patrick McGroin » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:36 pm

Rock wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:56 am
Lando might have been more plausible in the threesome scenes in The Mule, though.
He would have wrecked them ho's.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Stu » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:08 am

Still haven't seen Rise Of Skywalker yet, but to take things back to The Last Jedi (again), and the never-ending debate about whether it subverted too many expectations or not enough, I'm going to firmly plant my flag on the latter side of that argument; for me, the truly subversive aspects of it, like Rey's parents being nobodies, Snoke getting unceremoniously killed off, Luke's characterization as a weary, tragic hero who never actually lifts a finger against The First Order, etc, were all quite effective, and improved the experience a good deal. Of course, as far as I'm aware, we still don't fully know all the behind-the-scene nitty-gritties on the making of the film, so we still don't know which parties were responsible for what (yet), but judging from, Johnson's general preference for defying expectations/challenging audiences from his work on "Ozymandias" or Knives Out, and his stated distaste for fanbase pandering, the stuff like the stupid casino planet side-quest, the tracing over of the same basic story beats from Empire (i.e. most of the Rebels are on the run from the Empire the entire film, while the Force apprentice trains solo with an old Jedi master, etc.,), and the film's tendency to walk back its overarching theme of "killing the past" all strike me as being FAR more likely to be Disney's doing than Johnson's.

Because of that, the end result ends up making the film feel a bit at war with itself, with Disney's audience-satiating, bottom-line obsessed focus clashing with Johnson's more challenging sensibilities, with the strength of his filmmaking managing to still make the film good on the whole, and better than Abrams' first effort (IMO). I mean, I'm glad that they let him direct it all, but the ideal solution would've just been to give him full creative freedom on the project, like say, what WB did for Nolan when he made The Dark Knight, and now that the trolls have poisoned the well, I worry that Disney's just going to keep tucking its (massive) tail between its legs for future SW projects for the foreseeable future, which is a damn shame. After all, the consensus for some time now has been that Empire is the best SW film, period, and that's obviously because its the most challenging entry in the franchise, so I just wish the series could truly recapture that magic again by looking forward, instead of continuing to chase after the past.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:02 pm

I too didn't think TLJ was as off-brand as its detractors have claimed. Poe is put back in his leadership position, Luke is championed as a hero, Rey is still on the Jedi path, Finn is full-on dedicated to the Rebel cause, you still have lightsaber fights and spaceship fights and BB-8 doing a bunch of cute shit. to say it's iconoclastic says more about Star Wars than it does TLJ.

I dunno if killing Snoke is really that subversive. imo Rian use for Snoke was totally appropriate. unlike with Vader and Palpatine where we have our villain killing his master to show his reformation, we have our villain killing his master to demonstrate his instability.

fingers crossed TRoS ends up making less money than TLJ so maybe we can still get that Rian Johnson trilogy.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:44 pm

I dunno if killing Snoke is really that subversive. imo Rian use for Snoke was totally appropriate. unlike with Vader and Palpatine where we have our villain killing his master to show his reformation, we have our villain killing his master to demonstrate his instability.
Never said it was subversive, more the opposite. It just goes to show the lack of imagination with Kylo in general, there were numerous paths his arc could have taken and Johnson played it safe. I'm not a fan of establishing Kylo Ren as the big bad when his character was treated as something more like Zuko in The Last Airbender, Johnson wrote away any ambiguity regarding his character
fingers crossed TRoS ends up making less money than TLJ so maybe we can still get that Rian Johnson trilogy.
*bursts out laughing*
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:48 pm

Stu wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:08 am
but judging from, Johnson's general preference for defying expectations/challenging audiences from his work on "Ozymandias" or Knives Out
Woah woah woah, Knives Out was "challenging" and "defied expectations"? Movie was dumb as shit... it's self-awareness propelled it into the realm of quality. Get off this man's dick already
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:09 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:44 pm
*bursts out laughing*
I wanna see what he does without having to follow Abrams's storyline! I didn't love TLJ, it's still very flawed. but of all the Disney SW I liked it the best. relative to the others, of course.

regardless, this suggests TRoS is on track to beat TLJ. critics be damned, the fans have spoken. if anything, they'll probably give a trilogy to Favreau instead.
Never said it was subversive, more the opposite.
nah, I was talkin' to Stu
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:06 pm

I was reading Walter Chaw's take and he pointed out a missed opportunity that has me angry at this movie all over.
Think about this for a second, how the most powerful scene in the film is a strange one--as well as the most likely to be derided by men who hate kindness and temperance--in which our hero, the foundling Rey (Daisy Ridley), is confronted with a serpent in a Jungian underneath. Her friends want to kill it because that's what people in this universe tend to do when faced with adversity--but she heals it instead, winning them access to the surface. It plays like the kinds of myth the series' patron saint, Joseph Campbell, employed in his pop-comparative cosmologies about returns of archetypes in the campfire tales we tell ourselves. The best scene in the pretty good Reign of Fire has its post-apocalyptic survivors performing the Vader/Skywalker battle from The Empire Strikes Back before firelight on a stage with wooden swords. Boiled down to their essence, these films are "just-so stories" for the celluloid age, peopled with binary types in a polarized galaxy. Rey is good. Luke is good. It's not a fairy tale for adults, because all fairy tales are for adults. Here's a moment where Rey is actually good. Morally, archetypally good. Not good because she kills for the side we're programmed to root for, but good because she chooses to embrace the serpent instead of murdering it. The only hope any of us have of ever being okay is this possibility that we make the same choices with our own demons: you don't destroy the shadow, after all, without destroying the light. (Since we're talking about archetypes, the end of the film finds the good guys obliterating the giant, phallic cannons hanging underneath the bad guys' giant, spade-like ships.)

Now consider how this possibility for kindness and sacrifice, nursed and carried through the bulk of The Rise of Skywalker (and introduced in The Last Jedi, which is, of course, this third trilogy's second, moral act, just as The Empire Strikes Back is the first trilogy's), is betrayed at the end with a murder/death/kill of the most graphic variety.
although it wouldn't be a Star Wars movie without piles of missed opportunities, would it? it is what it is
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Rock » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:30 pm

Death Proof wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:01 pm
Here is a baby Yoda to make everyone feel better.

Image
Image
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:11 pm

Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:09 pm
nah, I was talkin' to Stu
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Dukefrukem1 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:03 pm

I re-watched the Force Awakens after seeing Rise of Skywalker; Not that we need questions answered like so many people do. I just accept them because Star Wars. I dont need to know what Finn was going o tell Rey when he was sinking into the sand. I don't need to know when Palpatine fathered a son. I dont need to know where Maz found Luke's Cloud City light saber... BUT, it's interesting playing the movies back how many things actually link to the decisions in Rise of Skywalker (which I hate btw).

For example, when Rey touches Luke's saber in Force Awakens- she is given a vision of the hallway between the first Vadar and Luke saber battle in the Empire Strikes Back. At the time we asked Why? Is she related to Luke? Is she related to Vadar? Why that hallway? This was the first time a force sensitive Rey was able to channel the force and because of her Palpatine blood, this was a disturbance in the force for her. It makes sense she would see that vision after touching Luke's saber.

We also see Rey use several force abilities with no training. She is able to fight off a trained Kylo Ren all three times in the trilogy (four if you include that dumb Tie Fighter scene). It's never in doubt that she won't win those battles. Why? Palpatine blood. Even when Kylo runs to Snoke to tell him about her, Snoke appears shocked that Kylo was defeated... but then tells him to bring her to him. Snoke/Palpatine secretly know who she is and Palpatine explains why he does this in Rise of Skywalker.

In the Last Jedi, when Luke is training Rey, Rey gravitates to the dark side. We are shown that deep dark hole- "You went straight to the dark"... Well duh... Palpatine is my grandfather Luke.

I hate almost every decision in this new trilogy- but if this is what we are given, I do like that theory that 'Lightning Planet' Palpatine is the culmination of every dark lord sith that has perished. 'Lightning Planet' Palpatine has created several clones that have acted in place of others- Snoke was one of those clones. The Emperor that was thrown down the death star was one of those clones. Senator Palpatine (Sidious) in the senate, could have fathered a son, long before he practiced the dark arts. Long before he became Palpatine the Senator. Long before the Phantom Menace... Palpatine was just a regular dude, seduced by the Darth Plagueis ( which was secretly 'Lightning Planet' Palpatine) who was crafting this plan the entire time.

So in short, Plagueis is Sidious is the Emperor is Palpatine in different forms. It also allows for any version of Palpatine to accept death. "I am defenseless... take your weapon... Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete". He wants Luke to kill the Emperor because 'Lightning Planet' Palpatine will absorb that power. Then eventually when Luke dies, he'll absorb that power. Until he's powerful enough to conjure Death Star ships out of thin air...
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Hipster Thor » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:02 am

I have to say this whole exercise has just left me sick. Not through any fault of the movie, really. A bad movie isn't a sin. It's everything around the movies and the franchise. The Star Wars fandom has to be the most toxic fandom there is. At least with the DCEU fans, the people that dont like the movies just kind of ignore them while the hardcore fans are all on the same side in their want for bad Zach Snyder movies. They have a united voice. Star Wars has turned people into animals in how they treat people. Animals. Spewing the most sensationalist vitriol over Star Wars while children are in cages at the border. It's become impossible for me to separate the community from the Star Wars franchise. I would be embarrassed to label myself a Star Wars fan because of the negative connotations that now come a long with it. I cannot even enjoy the OT in a vaccuum anymore. I'm just so tired. I open up my YouTube and see hundreds of people offering up their bad opinions on Star Wars copy and pasted over and over. I feel tired and I feel disgusted.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Stu » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:10 am

The Nameless One wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:48 pm
Woah woah woah, Knives Out was "challenging" and "defied expectations"? Movie was dumb as shit... it's self-awareness propelled it into the realm of quality. Get off this man's dick already
It did defy expectations, though; it's a murder mystery where what happened to the victim is revealed before it's even halfway over, after all.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:57 pm

Stu wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:10 am
It did defy expectations, though; it's a murder mystery where what happened to the victim is revealed before it's even halfway over, after all.
It defied your expectations maybe because you are a nincompoop
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:00 pm

I mean, for Christ sake you'd think Craig going off about donut holes would give it away that this is something of a farce.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:07 pm

Hipster Thor wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:02 am
I have to say this whole exercise has just left me sick. Not through any fault of the movie, really. A bad movie isn't a sin. It's everything around the movies and the franchise. The Star Wars fandom has to be the most toxic fandom there is. At least with the DCEU fans, the people that dont like the movies just kind of ignore them while the hardcore fans are all on the same side in their want for bad Zach Snyder movies. They have a united voice. Star Wars has turned people into animals in how they treat people. Animals. Spewing the most sensationalist vitriol over Star Wars while children are in cages at the border. It's become impossible for me to separate the community from the Star Wars franchise. I would be embarrassed to label myself a Star Wars fan because of the negative connotations that now come a long with it. I cannot even enjoy the OT in a vaccuum anymore. I'm just so tired. I open up my YouTube and see hundreds of people offering up their bad opinions on Star Wars copy and pasted over and over. I feel tired and I feel disgusted.
that's why I keep the discourse-ing regulated to the people I already know.

I too have to make sure if I'm gonna say I'm a Star Wars fan, I gotta make sure I'm a non-threatening one. and I usually get "outed" whenever people meet our family dog, Wicket.
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if it had been up to me, I would have named him Flike after the dog from Umberto D. but mom felt an Ewok name was more appropriate. you be the judge. and no, I don't know what his opinion was of TLJ
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by DaMU » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:52 pm

I bet he thought The Last Jedi was a doggone good time, he liked to paws to admire individual shots, and he'd give it canine out of ten stars.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by DaMU » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:52 pm

/my proudest post
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by topherH » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:11 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:57 pm
It defied your expectations maybe because you are a nincompoop
Nice.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:13 am

DaMU wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:52 pm
I bet he thought The Last Jedi was a doggone good time, he liked to paws to admire individual shots, and he'd give it canine out of ten stars.
you're wholesome as fuck, DaMU :up:
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:40 am

Hipster Thor wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:02 am
I have to say this whole exercise has just left me sick. Not through any fault of the movie, really. A bad movie isn't a sin. It's everything around the movies and the franchise. The Star Wars fandom has to be the most toxic fandom there is. At least with the DCEU fans, the people that dont like the movies just kind of ignore them while the hardcore fans are all on the same side in their want for bad Zach Snyder movies. They have a united voice. Star Wars has turned people into animals in how they treat people. Animals. Spewing the most sensationalist vitriol over Star Wars while children are in cages at the border. It's become impossible for me to separate the community from the Star Wars franchise. I would be embarrassed to label myself a Star Wars fan because of the negative connotations that now come a long with it. I cannot even enjoy the OT in a vaccuum anymore. I'm just so tired. I open up my YouTube and see hundreds of people offering up their bad opinions on Star Wars copy and pasted over and over. I feel tired and I feel disgusted.
by sheer coincidence, I happened upon this
so all the toxicity may just be another symptom of the consciousness brought by social media. like, I'm sure the toxicity would have existed if Twitter/Reddit had been around in the 70's/80's. and this could be compounded when Star Wars always seems to exist as a limited series i.e. the main story always has only three movies left so they gotta get it right or it's all for nothing! then you get fans getting very, very protective of their stories.

I saw the OT several years before the PT so I'm already used to enjoying it in a vacuum in spite of everything else.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Stu » Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:37 am

The Nameless One wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:00 pm
I mean, for Christ sake you'd think Craig going off about donut holes would give it away that this is something of a farce.
The overall tone of the movie is fairly light/humorous, but the construction of the central mystery is quite serious (Johnson does have a habit of spinning gold out of absurd-seeming material; I mean, he directed an episode of one of my favorite shows that seems to be about nothing more than a character trying to kill a fly for an hour, and it's one of that show's best eps). At any rate, Knives Out absolutely subverted expectations for murder mysteries, whether it's the aforementioned early reveal, which
is not just some empty bait-and-switch, as Johnson still keeps us engaged by shifting our perspective and sympathies, and keeping the intrigue and tension up by having us follow around an innocent person attempting to cover their tracks right under the nose of the investigators (with mixed success), while at the same time diverting suspicion from the most likely suspect by appearing to reveal everything he's up to by involving us with a relatively innocuous scheme of his, while also setting up smaller mysteries bubbling just beneath the surface, ones that we're subconsciously aware of, but only really become apparent when he chooses to reveal them to us, the sure sign of a good mystery (if you're looking for a Daniel Craig murder mystery where we're mostly just waiting for the film to get around to revealing who the incredibly obvious killer is, The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo is a much better fit). Knives Out, on the other hand, was relentlessly clever material, and an original mystery so tightly constructed that Robert Towne himself would've been proud to have penned it, IMO.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Thief » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:25 pm

Some stuff I wanted to reply to...
The Nameless One wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:17 pm
Of course this is ultimately Disney's fault but in regards to the planning argument, I feel like TFA laid a perfect foundation for this series to go to the point where I don't understand how Rian Johnson could (SUBJECTIVITY ALERT SUBJECTIVITY ALERT) fuck it all up so badly, especially if, as you say, he was given some serious free reign with this project. It may seem like I'm singing TFA's praises but I think that movie is not very good as well, particularly the retreaded third act, but in it's safety you have literally the perfect template for two... and this is what Rian Johnson does with it... no, not the Luke stuff, that's fine, but, like, Canto Bight. Someone PLEASE explain that shit to me, why wasn't that cut? Why was everything between Rose and Finn so inconsequential when this precious time could've been spent... doing something completely different. Rian Johnson's decisions are BAFFLING in that movie, I do not at all understand how you seasoned film consumers can forgive it's shit. Why is this conflict so forced as a result of the script being written like a madcap comedy of errors on behalf of the Rebel Alliance? Why is purple haired lady single handily screwing her cause? I've had this discourse with people and no one has been able to give me a clear picture beyond "I dunno, I just liked it". Frankly, I find it kinda embarrassing that a Star Wars movie has stumped so many people, and why people are even being protective of it in the first place. It's a Disney movie for christ sake, it's McDonalds cinema
Apropos to your "subjectivity alert", I don't think Rian Johnson "fucked it all up" at all. I can somewhat understand the criticisms about the Canto Bight sequence, but I've always seen the whole Rose/Finn quest as part of the big picture of how misguided and futile Poe's decisions were, and with DJ, how grey-ish the allegiances of each character can be. But as for me, personally, I'm not bothered at all by the sequence.

Beyond that, I suppose that your last sentence can be applied by both "sides", in terms of why a "Star Wars movie has stumped so many people" cause I don't understand why people have lashed at it so badly. I don't necessarily see it as its fans being "protective", but rather as many (not all) of its detractors being particularly harsh and toxic against it. Perhaps you can read my review about it on my thread, but I don't see how Johnson's decisions are baffling. Re: your specific question about Holdo ("purple haired lady"), why is she "screwing her cause"? Because she didn't reveal her plan to Poe? We don't know how much she knows him but he comes from being reprimanded and demoted by Leia, which means he probably wasn't "cleared" to know the logistics of Holdo's plan. It is implied and mentioned that other "higher-ups" did know of her plan, but since we are seeing things from Poe's POV, we can't see the big picture, just like him, which leads to his hot-headed decisions and, well, Canto Bight.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Thief » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:34 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:44 pm
Never said it was subversive, more the opposite. It just goes to show the lack of imagination with Kylo in general, there were numerous paths his arc could have taken and Johnson played it safe. I'm not a fan of establishing Kylo Ren as the big bad when his character was treated as something more like Zuko in The Last Airbender, Johnson wrote away any ambiguity regarding his character
I've never seen The Last Airbender so I can't say anything about that analogy, but I couldn't disagree more about your last sentence and how Kylo's action writes away "any ambiguity". If anything, I think it makes his motivations all the more ambiguous. I mean, the "big bad" killing the "bigger bad" and trying to lure our "hero" into rejecting any of the traditionally established sides ("Snoke, Skywalker, the Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels") in favor of something different? In that moment, we're really not sure where Kylo, or Rey, stands or what to expect from them. As far as these films go, it really can't get any more ambiguous than that.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:03 pm

Thief wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:34 pm
I've never seen The Last Airbender so I can't say anything about that analogy, but I couldn't disagree more about your last sentence and how Kylo's action writes away "any ambiguity". If anything, I think it makes his motivations all the more ambiguous. I mean, the "big bad" killing the "bigger bad" and trying to lure our "hero" into rejecting any of the traditionally established sides ("Snoke, Skywalker, the Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels") in favor of something different? In that moment, we're really not sure where Kylo, or Rey, stands or what to expect from them. As far as these films go, it really can't get any more ambiguous than that.
that's why it would have been so much more interesting if Rey and Kylo had joined together, leaving their respective factions behind. imagine if Rian could have done a third movie and would have had the space to take that storyline further (or if he had left that plotline open for the next director but maybe he didn't want to do that?)

TLJ is still okay.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:26 pm

Stu wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:37 am
At any rate, Knives Out absolutely subverted expectations for murder mysteries
FOR YOU IT DID
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:30 pm

Thief wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:34 pm
I've never seen The Last Airbender so I can't say anything about that analogy, but I couldn't disagree more about your last sentence and how Kylo's action writes away "any ambiguity". If anything, I think it makes his motivations all the more ambiguous. I mean, the "big bad" killing the "bigger bad" and trying to lure our "hero" into rejecting any of the traditionally established sides ("Snoke, Skywalker, the Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels") in favor of something different? In that moment, we're really not sure where Kylo, or Rey, stands or what to expect from them. As far as these films go, it really can't get any more ambiguous than that.
Yeah, then he WROTE IT ALL AWAY AND LEFT KYLO IN THE MOST OBVIOUS POSITION POSSIBLE. All of that did, in fact, happen, and I liked it, then he WROTE IT ALL AWAY
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:34 pm

Thief wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:25 pm
But as for me, personally, I'm not bothered at all by the sequence.
*screams unintelligible things*
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:47 pm

When people say things like they aren't bothered by the Canto Bight sequence I just can't take any criticism they dish out seriously. You are just null and void at that point, like, I only have so many precious minutes on this planet and your fucking movie is going to spend 20 of it doing literally nothing aside from wasting money?
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Thief » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:48 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:34 pm
*screams unintelligible things*
Image

:D
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Thief » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:49 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:47 pm
When people say things like they aren't bothered by the Canto Bight sequence I just can't take any criticism they dish out seriously. You are just null and void at that point, like, I only have so many precious minutes on this planet and your fucking movie is going to spend 20 of it doing literally nothing aside from wasting money?
Ah, well, it was nice to chat about it for a while, though.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:52 pm

Thief wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:25 pm
It is implied and mentioned that other "higher-ups" did know of her plan, but since we are seeing things from Poe's POV, we can't see the big picture, just like him, which leads to his hot-headed decisions and, well, Canto Bight.
Oh right, Poe, forgot he was a character who we are supposed to be invested in. So... let me get this straight... instead of using the established character to make an important Alliance saving decision we're just going to override it all in favor of some dork ass looking lady who we have no clue about?
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Death Proof » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:41 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:52 pm
Oh right, Poe, forgot he was a character who we are supposed to be invested in. So... let me get this straight... instead of using the established character to make an important Alliance saving decision we're just going to override it all in favor of some dork ass looking lady who we have no clue about?
Aw, I think she's adorable.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:05 pm

The Nameless One wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:52 pm
Oh right, Poe, forgot he was a character who we are supposed to be invested in. So... let me get this straight... instead of using the established character to make an important Alliance saving decision we're just going to override it all in favor of some dork ass looking lady who we have no clue about?
I'm guessing the conflict between Poe and Laura Dern was Rian making a statement on the cocky, bull-headed male hotshot vs. female authority. at the very least when we the audience are introduced to her, we get a reference to her credentials (something about her history during some famous battle) so in-universe she's not unqualified to be calling the shots.

it's not a bad statement in theory, taking aim at the whole "toxic masculinity" thing. unless this theme only works when Laura Dern is proven to be right. because Laura Dern might not always be right even if Poe was wrong to do the thing that got him demoted and cut out of the loop. as some have said, it can also read as pro-authority in general.

it is a plotline that I also kinda wish had been spread out over more than one movie. Poe getting his leadership back so soon after his mutiny isn't sufficiently humbling imo. and you'd get more screen-time to detail the internal conflicts within the Rebel faction (which iirc was a big part of the Thrawn trilogy, just different types of conflict). I'll still give Rian credit for having a better idea of what to do with a character like Poe than JJ did.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:31 pm

Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:05 pm
I'm guessing the conflict between Poe and Laura Dern was Rian making a statement on the cocky, bull-headed male hotshot vs. female authority.
Ah yes, Rian Johnson's politics. And Stu wonders how Knives Out wasn't predictable
at the very least when we the audience are introduced to her, we get a reference to her credentials (something about her history during some famous battle) so in-universe she's not unqualified to be calling the shots.

it's not a bad statement in theory, taking aim at the whole "toxic masculinity" thing. unless this theme only works when Laura Dern is proven to be right. because Laura Dern might not always be right even if Poe was wrong to do the thing that got him demoted. as some have said, it can also read as pro-authority.

it is a plotline that I also kinda wish had been spread out over more than one movie. Poe getting his leadership back so soon after his mutiny isn't sufficiently humbling imo
I find the whole thing confusing (read: confused), politically, because it's like Rian Johnson is taking the piss out of the Rebel Alliance more than even the Empire. I mean, he's taking the piss out of the whole franchise but in this instance it strikes me as especially "trollish"... as if the movie is operating on some bent Verhoeven-esque satire (not to give the man more credit than he deserves). It's, like, on one hand you have the toxic masculinity angle, but Poe had a legit argument in that whole tirade, and Laura Dern kinda messed everything up in the end... so what is Rian Johnson trying to say exactly? I can sorta see the political parallels where the liberals love to shoot themselves in the feet, but that all just adds up to why exactly this movie pissed so many people off. It's a troll! Everyone's being trolled, trolls left and right up and down. It's such a troll that it ends up trolling itself, a troll Ouroboros.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by DaMU » Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:49 pm

Your failure to coin the term "trolloboros" will haunt you forever.
NOTE:
The above-written is wholly and solely the perspective of DaMU and should not be taken as an effort to rile, malign, or diminish you, dummo.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Hipster Thor » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:00 pm

Fans do not deserve TLJ. Rise of Skywalker is exactly what the fans deserve.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Jinnistan » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:08 pm

DaMU wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:49 pm
Your failure to coin the term "trolloboros" will haunt you forever.
loloboros
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:27 pm

DaMU wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:49 pm
Your failure to coin the term "trolloboros" will haunt you forever.
This post convinced me to quit posting before coffee
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by topherH » Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:09 pm

Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:05 pm
I'm guessing the conflict between Poe and Laura Dern was Rian making a statement on the cocky, bull-headed male hotshot vs. female authority
It was. It was a waste of time.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Rock » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:04 am

I think I'm on the same page as Nameless on The Last Jedi's handling of the Laura Dern character (although I like her purple hair, not sure if he feels the same), but I mostly like (at least in concept, not necessarily in execution) the way these new movies approach the art of (star) war from different angles, with the insurgents in Rogue One, the trench warfare in Solo, the emphasis on the chain of command in Jedi, and the (two minutes) of pirate-style raid in The Rise of Skywalker.
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Re: I sure wish RT was still here for TLJ Hottakes

Post by Death Proof » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:50 am

Rock wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:04 am
I think I'm on the same page as Nameless on The Last Jedi's handling of the Laura Dern character (although I like her purple hair, not sure if he feels the same), but I mostly like (at least in concept, not necessarily in execution) the way these new movies approach the art of (star) war from different angles, with the insurgents in Rogue One, the trench warfare in Solo, the emphasis on the chain of command in Jedi, and the (two minutes) of pirate-style raid in The Rise of Skywalker.
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