Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:37 pm

Death Proof wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:36 pm
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HAHAHAHA!
No.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Captain Terror » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:38 pm

I tried, but I don't recognize it. Am I gonna feel stupid when you tell us?
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:06 pm

Image
Alright, to catch you up to speed (first movie completely spoiled ahead):
Brigitte and her sister Ginger are best friends and outcasts. Ginger is attacked by a werewolf and starts to change (her changes not so subtly mirroring female puberty and sexual emergence). Ginger starts murdering people but also becomes cool. Somewhere along the way, Brigitte is also attacked by a guy "infected" by Ginger during unprotected sex (an interesting new take on passing lycanthropy), and is bitten. Ultimately, Ginger fully turns, Brigitte tries to cure her but ends up killing her sister/best-friend, and is left to deal with the aftermath.
As we begin the sequel, Brigitte is now a junky, shooting up at least daily. But what is this purple shit she's putting in her veins?
Image
She also appears to be attempting suicide in the bathtub by slashing her wrists. This is a sad outcome for the best character in the original film and brings some real tragedy to the proceedings early. But it turns out she's really a cutter. Which was historically associated with Borderline Personality Disorder (now it's just called Non-Suicidal Self-Injury). In this movie, it looks like this (probably the most interesting shot of the film):
Image
But NSSI is generally an attempt to gain control or to defy emotional pain with physical pain. While both of these motivations would fit Brigitte to a T, she may have motivations that are quite different and unique to her.
Ultimately, after an attack by a werewolf leaves the most recent person to try to help her completely dead, Brigitte wakes up in a Community Rehab and Psychiatric center. They have taken away her "stash" and of course the ex-junky who runs the program thinks she knows Brigitte's whole story because whatever Brigitte is doing or has gone through, the wise ex-junky has been there. Ha.
And this is where Brigitte meets Ghost, the annoying, yet somehow compelling, and very off-kilter sidekick Brigitte will pick up...
Image
...for her battle against the werewolf that is pursuing her...
Image
...and her fight to keep herself from turning.

I won't lie to you, I struggled at times during this movie. A lot of it seemed to obvious and it is really fucking grim and I really don't like creepy-kids. They don't scare me, they annoy me.
But by the end, the film had mostly won me over or at least made me feel rewarded for sticking it out. Since then, the more I think about it, the more I like it. The more I realize there was a decent bit of cleverness going on that just went right by me in real time but comes together rather well in retrospect. And because some of the obviousness goes away by the end the movie sits better and the early work doesn't seem so much like work.
While ultimately chose to give it a thumbs-down the day after to my friends who were inquiring I've reversed field now and give it a tepid thumbs-up. And tepid only because I really don't know if other viewers will have the long-term reaction that I had or the short-term one.
Basically, I think it's a risk to spend the run-time on it, but I am ultimately feeling rewarded that I did.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:06 pm

Captain Terror wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:38 pm
I tried, but I don't recognize it. Am I gonna feel stupid when you tell us?
No.

But get ready to have your mind blown on the next one. The one I've never seen until almost 47 years old.
I warned you.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Death Proof » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:12 pm

Image
Ain't no grave gonna hold this body down
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Captain Terror » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:34 pm

I'm ready! I promise not to movie-shame you. :)

(Can't remember if I ever watched GS 2. Liked the original a lot though.)
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:30 pm

Image
No, I have never seen the Metropolis of Horror.
At least, not until now.
I've talked here many times about how there are classics that I "save" either so that I make sure I'm in the right mood to receive them when I watch them, so that I will always have something amazing to watch, or to simply avoid disappointment.
Well, all 3 of those things came together the other night, when I spontaneously decided, "Dude, what are you waiting for, you're 47 years old!".
I was in the right mood apparently, because it was amazing, and I was not disappointed. On the contrary, it was better than I had imagined. The movie oozes dread and atmosphere and straight-up horror from every fucking frame. Even the scenes of the normal human characters talking have an uneasy feel about them. Although the movie wastes no time introducing the bizarre and unsettling as we meet Murnau and Grau's take on Renfield right away and he is the most frightening and menacing version of the character I have ever seen (and there have been many). But, unlike another "classic" I first-watched recently, this movie brings the dread constantly and is really an artistic achievement in horror.
This must have scared the absolute shit out of people in 1922.
It is easily the scariest vampire movie I've ever seen.
Image
Just look at that shit. If you saw that in real life you would probably fucking die of fright.
Together, Murnau, Grau, and the marvelous Max Schreck deliver a take on Dracula unlike any other we've seen, not some suave and sophisticated European Royalty (Lugosi), nor some melodramatic love-sick half-monster (Oldman), nor the vicious but somehow easily dispatched over and over again demon (Lee), but a real creature, something really only half-human if any at all, merciless not out of theatrical evil but out of animalistic nature. He kills because it is what he does. He feeds. And he terrifies. But the terror is more the natural reaction of simply encountering him than any affectation of his own.
Murnau's direction and Grau's design, though cannot be under-appreciated as the milieu in which Schreck's monster performs. Were it not for Schreck I believe the film would still have been pretty amazing and Murnau's attention to detail, including filming to a metronome to make sure the actors' movements and dialogue were perfect for the mood he wanted to create, yields an amazing result.
I could go on and on, and I may have more to say, but I will pause here and simply say this is probably one of the better movies I've seen, regardless of genre, and once again a Great Film has lived up to and perhaps even surpassed its own reputation for me.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:34 pm

Nosferatu is fine and all, but I got to confess that I feel like it really drags whenever Orlok isn't present in it. Still though, I really like it as a whole, even though it's never quite been a great film for me. Nice write-up of it though.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Apex Predator » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:11 pm

The Skin I Live In?
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:01 pm

Popcorn Reviews wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:34 pm
Nosferatu is fine and all, but I got to confess that I feel like it really drags whenever Orlok isn't present in it. Still though, I really like it as a whole, even though it's never quite been a great film for me. Nice write-up of it though.
I am surprised to hear this.
For one thing, Renfield is so goddamn creepy in this movie, he fills the void when Orlok's not there. And Orlok is actually in a LOT of the movie, more than I expected. But also, like I said, I feel like the movie has dread in every scene, just the way it's designed and filmed. Even at the very beginning I thought there was an unease to it.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:02 pm

Apex Predator wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:11 pm
The Skin I Live In?
No, it was Ginger Snaps 2.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Takoma1 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:34 pm

Ginger Snaps 2 is a film that really has to be watched on its own terms. And that's challenging because it so directly continues the story from the first film.

I think that the whole vibe of the film, and the sense of who/what is a threat is completely different from the first movie. It's still dark humor, but of a very different variety. The film wisely doesn't try to replicate the sisterly bond that drove the conflict in the first film, and it replaces it with the off-kilter Bridgette/Ghost relationship that operates on a different level.

I ultimately liked the film, but it was a real downer in a lot of ways. Things like the sexually abusive orderly were more of an uncomfortable threat. In a lot of ways I respect the film for going to some really weird and unexpected places, but the emotions I felt while watching it were more complicated than just enjoyment. Of the three films, it's the one I don't really ever rewatch.

I will say, though, that as a trilogy I think that it's one of the strongest run of three films in the horror cannon. Each film is unique and has a different take on the idea of being a werewolf and also on the way that it positions its central relationships.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:41 pm

Wooley wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:01 pm
I am surprised to hear this.
For one thing, Renfield is so goddamn creepy in this movie, he fills the void when Orlok's not there. And Orlok is actually in a LOT of the movie, more than I expected. But also, like I said, I feel like the movie has dread in every scene, just the way it's designed and filmed. Even at the very beginning I thought there was an unease to it.
Renfield was fine and all. However, I think it was mostly just his physical appearance which was creepy. His physical demeanor lacked all the creepy visual effects, shadow effects, and well-framed shots which made Orlok so scary to me. From what I remembered, Orlok wasn't in the film that much. To see if I was remembering correctly though, I skimmed through the movie on youtube and saw that Orlok doesn't appear until 18 minutes in and leaves around the 33 minute mark, briefly comes back around the 50-56 minute mark during the climax of the ship voyage, and comes back during the final 5 minutes or so. So, about a third of the film (not to mention that most of it takes place in the first half hour). I think I would've been fine with this had the sections of the film in between his appearances entertained me more. As it was, I thought they were good with occasional dosages of dread and buildup, but the sections with Orlok were the only parts of it which I was really into.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Slentert » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:48 pm

Nosferatu played at my local rep theater last month and I missed the goddamn screening because I was obligated to go to my grandmother's 65th birthday dinner. Which, was a great evening and I love my grandmother with whole my heart, but I'm still sad I missed that screening.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:03 pm

Takoma1 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:34 pm
Ginger Snaps 2 is a film that really has to be watched on its own terms. And that's challenging because it so directly continues the story from the first film.

I think that the whole vibe of the film, and the sense of who/what is a threat is completely different from the first movie. It's still dark humor, but of a very different variety. The film wisely doesn't try to replicate the sisterly bond that drove the conflict in the first film, and it replaces it with the off-kilter Bridgette/Ghost relationship that operates on a different level.

I ultimately liked the film, but it was a real downer in a lot of ways. Things like the sexually abusive orderly were more of an uncomfortable threat. In a lot of ways I respect the film for going to some really weird and unexpected places, but the emotions I felt while watching it were more complicated than just enjoyment. Of the three films, it's the one I don't really ever rewatch.

I will say, though, that as a trilogy I think that it's one of the strongest run of three films in the horror cannon. Each film is unique and has a different take on the idea of being a werewolf and also on the way that it positions its central relationships.
So, a few thoughts, and I'm glad you dropped by because I actually watched this on your recommendation from a few years ago.
The first is that, because I had caught a couple minutes of it before, I knew the vibe was very different from the first film and I was actually looking forward to that. However, I just didn't like the movie that much for a while. Aside from being, as you say, a real downer (which I will go into more ahead), I thought it was a little too simple and obvious in some ways...
... for example, the doctor at the Community Center was too much of a caricature of what that person would be like, some members of the group also seemed like caricatures, the bully and runt thing between the bully girl and Ghost seemed really rote, Ghost seemed like a pretty one-dimensional annoying kid, and honestly, the moment you saw the pretty-boy orderly you knew he was gonna be a sexual predator and that that was gonna be the direction things were going; and those just off the top of my head... And really, the stuff with Ginger just doesn't work, it's clunky and unappealing and obvious, and it's also unnecessary, as it's really pretty obvious what's going on with Brigitte and we don't need the hallucination of Ginger constantly popping up to explain it to us.
So just kinda really, really obvious and a little amateurish for me, not comparing it to the first but holding it to the standard of the first.
However, there was then...
...some pretty good subversion of some, though not all, of that.
Obviously, the flipping of the script with Ghost was a real stroke. I mean, that kinda validates the whole movie. And that's what's forced me to revisit my thoughts about the whole film over the last few days. I can't forget the unnecessary Ginger, the campy doctor, the masturbation-therapy session (wtf?), or just how obvious the orderly and his fate were (I mean, the first moment you see him you're like, "Oh, he's a bad-guy and he's gonna get eaten to satisfy his arc"). But, the flip with Ghost makes it all much more interesting. I was really struggling with the idea that this guy was gonna get murdered if the movie was gonna be as fair as it seemed to be playing it. Yeah, he was a piece of shit and probably should go to jail for a few years and whatever happens to him there he probably deserves and he should be registered as a sex-offender too, but did he deserve a gurgling, excruciating bloody death? Hard to say, certainly some moral quandary there.
Until he rapes a teenage girl. Then it's like, "Fuck you, dude, I hope he eats you slowly, you fucking fuck." Except that there's a problem. He just didn't seem like the specific kind of shit-bag who full-on aggravated rape of a teenage girl. He was a scum-bag, but that seemed a bridge or even two too far, even for him, as we hadn't seen any sign of physical violence from him, he was always about manipulation and control. And he genuinely seemed to be trying to help them at that point. So it just wasn't sitting right.
And of course, that's exactly what they were going for. It's such a good setup, for the first time in the movie I felt like they completely succeeded at something and it actually validated some of the choices earlier in the movie, specifically the whole Ghost character (who I had grudgingly accepted as the vehicle to move the plot but that was as far as I could go) and the pretty-boy sexual-predator orderly and his incongruous teen-rape and his outcome. I mean, that shit all really, really plays and I really got a kick out of the final scene where Ghost is her own super-villain and Brigitte is just her weapon. I mean, that was really sharp.
So, anyway, just interested in your thoughts on all that and anything I might have missed.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:10 pm

Popcorn Reviews wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:41 pm
Renfield was fine and all. However, I think it was mostly just his physical appearance which was creepy. His physical demeanor lacked all the creepy visual effects, shadow effects, and well-framed shots which made Orlok so scary to me. From what I remembered, Orlok wasn't in the film that much. To see if I was remembering correctly though, I skimmed through the movie on youtube and saw that Orlok doesn't appear until 18 minutes in and leaves around the 33 minute mark, briefly comes back around the 50-56 minute mark during the climax of the ship voyage, and comes back during the final 5 minutes or so. So, about a third of the film (not to mention that most of it takes place in the first half hour). I think I would've been fine with this had the sections of the film in between his appearances entertained me more. As it was, I thought they were good with occasional dosages of dread and buildup, but the sections with Orlok were the only parts of it which I was really into.
Respectfully disagreeing.
For the villain to be on-screen a third of the film is actually a lot. I don't think Darth Vader had that much screen-time in any of the Star Wars films.
But, like Vader, and really even moreso, Orlok is present even when he's not on-screen. And they've been doing that with the story in all the Dracula films, of course, through Renfield, but also here that he is present the moment the coach shows up to pick up Harker (or whatever they called him in this, Mutter or something) and pretty continuously through Harker's entire time in Transylvania, and then on the boat, even if he's not actually in-frame; and that boat-ride is long. And then in the third act, he's still creeping around a good bit.
I mean, like I said, I thought he was in the movie a lot more than I expected and that the movie had a lot less down-time than practically any of the iterations of Dracula I can think of. The '31 film has been accused of dragging a lot once they leave Transylvania and god is Coppola's a fucking melodramatic slog through the second act (but at least it gets you away from Keanu for a while).
I dunno, man, I think this is easily the best Dracula film I've seen and maybe, probably the best vampire movie I've seen.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:11 pm

Slentert wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:48 pm
Nosferatu played at my local rep theater last month and I missed the goddamn screening because I was obligated to go to my grandmother's 65th birthday dinner. Which, was a great evening and I love my grandmother with whole my heart, but I'm still sad I missed that screening.
Well, I feel ya on that, I have "missed" (read, skipped) so many screenings of Nosferatu over the years and now I feel like an idiot. I won't miss the next one.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Takoma1 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:36 pm

Wooley wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:03 pm
So, a few thoughts, and I'm glad you dropped by because I actually watched this on your recommendation from a few years ago.
The first is that, because I had caught a couple minutes of it before, I knew the vibe was very different from the first film and I was actually looking forward to that. However, I just didn't like the movie that much for a while. Aside from being, as you say, a real downer (which I will go into more ahead), I thought it was a little too simple and obvious in some ways...
... for example, the doctor at the Community Center was too much of a caricature of what that person would be like, some members of the group also seemed like caricatures, the bully and runt thing between the bully girl and Ghost seemed really rote, Ghost seemed like a pretty one-dimensional annoying kid, and honestly, the moment you saw the pretty-boy orderly you knew he was gonna be a sexual predator and that that was gonna be the direction things were going; and those just off the top of my head... And really, the stuff with Ginger just doesn't work, it's clunky and unappealing and obvious, and it's also unnecessary, as it's really pretty obvious what's going on with Brigitte and we don't need the hallucination of Ginger constantly popping up to explain it to us.
So just kinda really, really obvious and a little amateurish for me, not comparing it to the first but holding it to the standard of the first.
However, there was then...
...some pretty good subversion of some, though not all, of that.
Obviously, the flipping of the script with Ghost was a real stroke. I mean, that kinda validates the whole movie. And that's what's forced me to revisit my thoughts about the whole film over the last few days. I can't forget the unnecessary Ginger, the campy doctor, the masturbation-therapy session (wtf?), or just how obvious the orderly and his fate were (I mean, the first moment you see him you're like, "Oh, he's a bad-guy and he's gonna get eaten to satisfy his arc"). But, the flip with Ghost makes it all much more interesting. I was really struggling with the idea that this guy was gonna get murdered if the movie was gonna be as fair as it seemed to be playing it. Yeah, he was a piece of shit and probably should go to jail for a few years and whatever happens to him there he probably deserves and he should be registered as a sex-offender too, but did he deserve a gurgling, excruciating bloody death? Hard to say, certainly some moral quandary there.
Until he rapes a teenage girl. Then it's like, "Fuck you, dude, I hope he eats you slowly, you fucking fuck." Except that there's a problem. He just didn't seem like the specific kind of shit-bag who full-on aggravated rape of a teenage girl. He was a scum-bag, but that seemed a bridge or even two too far, even for him, as we hadn't seen any sign of physical violence from him, he was always about manipulation and control. And he genuinely seemed to be trying to help them at that point. So it just wasn't sitting right.
And of course, that's exactly what they were going for. It's such a good setup, for the first time in the movie I felt like they completely succeeded at something and it actually validated some of the choices earlier in the movie, specifically the whole Ghost character (who I had grudgingly accepted as the vehicle to move the plot but that was as far as I could go) and the pretty-boy sexual-predator orderly and his incongruous teen-rape and his outcome. I mean, that shit all really, really plays and I really got a kick out of the final scene where Ghost is her own super-villain and Brigitte is just her weapon. I mean, that was really sharp.
So, anyway, just interested in your thoughts on all that and anything I might have missed.
I do think that the film
succeeds in subverting a lot of expectations with the characters it sets up. I think you are correct in saying that the set up takes up a lot of run time where you just feel like it's all too obvious.

I honestly haven't watched the film in a long time, but I don't really remember the stuff with Ginger. I'm sure that they were worried about not having her in the film at all, but I agree that shoehorning her in as Bridgette's subconscious or whatever doesn't really fly.

Regarding the orderly, I actually think that his demise fits the "morality" of almost any horror film. He's a predator. And he's not preying on adult women--he's going after teenagers. While it's true that he didn't attack Ghost, I think it's pretty reasonable to infer that once she was a little older, he would consider her fair game. But the twist of her preemptively taking him out is just delicious.
I think that it's a film with a messy first half and a really innovative, satisfying final act.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by crumbsroom » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:19 pm

I'm with Popcorn on Nosferatu. Orloff as a physical specimen is far and away the greatest vampire in film. That can't be over stated. The connective tissue between his scenes doesn't mean much to me though.

I don't even know what my favourite Dracula film would be. Well, of course I actually do (it's Blood for Dracula) but that hardly treats the source very seriously. For faithful adaptations it's probably Horror of Dracula. I guess I don't really like Stoker's tale all that much to begin with.

Of course I don't need to state that Martin is the best vampire movie of all. That should be obvs, right?
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:23 pm

Wooley wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:10 pm
Respectfully disagreeing.
For the villain to be on-screen a third of the film is actually a lot. I don't think Darth Vader had that much screen-time in any of the Star Wars films.
But, like Vader, and really even moreso, Orlok is present even when he's not on-screen. And they've been doing that with the story in all the Dracula films, of course, through Renfield, but also here that he is present the moment the coach shows up to pick up Harker (or whatever they called him in this, Mutter or something) and pretty continuously through Harker's entire time in Transylvania, and then on the boat, even if he's not actually in-frame; and that boat-ride is long. And then in the third act, he's still creeping around a good bit.
I mean, like I said, I thought he was in the movie a lot more than I expected and that the movie had a lot less down-time than practically any of the iterations of Dracula I can think of. The '31 film has been accused of dragging a lot once they leave Transylvania and god is Coppola's a fucking melodramatic slog through the second act (but at least it gets you away from Keanu for a while).
I dunno, man, I think this is easily the best Dracula film I've seen and maybe, probably the best vampire movie I've seen.
I think what it boils to me is: Are the sections of the film where Orlok isn't present just as good as the ones he is present in? For some alien/monster/slasher movies, I'd answer yes. Alien is excellent when the alien isn't onscreen as it sometimes feels like poetry. Halloween is also excellent when Myers isn't onscreen due to how it constantly teases you again and again. I imagine that for many, this film is still interesting when Orlok isn't onscreen. For me though, I'd have to answer no. The film is at its best when it shows all the creepy visual effects and clever camera angles which feature Orlok. Those parts to it are great. The other parts to it are good, but they don't contain the same feel as the scenes which feature Orlok do to my eyes.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Apex Predator » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:34 pm

I think Nosferatu holds its own with the Tod Browning Dracula among the better adaptions.

Lugosi may be more smooth, but it's difficult to estimate how scary/creepy Schreck is as Count Orlok.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Takoma1 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:59 pm

crumbsroom wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:19 pm
Of course I don't need to state that Martin is the best vampire movie of all. That should be obvs, right?
OH, thank god. We can be friends again.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:50 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:36 pm
I do think that the film
succeeds in subverting a lot of expectations with the characters it sets up. I think you are correct in saying that the set up takes up a lot of run time where you just feel like it's all too obvious.

I honestly haven't watched the film in a long time, but I don't really remember the stuff with Ginger. I'm sure that they were worried about not having her in the film at all, but I agree that shoehorning her in as Bridgette's subconscious or whatever doesn't really fly.

Regarding the orderly, I actually think that his demise fits the "morality" of almost any horror film. He's a predator. And he's not preying on adult women--he's going after teenagers. While it's true that he didn't attack Ghost, I think it's pretty reasonable to infer that once she was a little older, he would consider her fair game. But the twist of her preemptively taking him out is just delicious.
I think that it's a film with a messy first half and a really innovative, satisfying final act.
Yeah, I agree that it succeeds in the way you say.
And I agree with the innovative satisfying final act.
I would correct that
Ghost doesn't take him out preemptively as a predator, she says out loud that it's basically done out of jealousy. She doesn't like all the attention he gives the other girls instead of her. So it's a little more messed up and not as neat as that. Ghost is a dangerously mentally ill child and she straight-up murders that dude by tricking Brigitte into thinking he attacked her. Did he deserve an ill fate, sure, absolutely, but did he deserve that fate? Eh, maybe in tropish slasher rules, but this movie and its predecessor feel like they are trying to be smarter than that. They actually seem to start showing him trying to be human a little bit, right before she pulls what she does, which is why the (faked) rape seems so jarring. If he had been set up as that level of predator it would have seemed almost expected. Anyway, Ghost fucking murders him and murders the head of the Center and imprisons Brigitte to use as a murder-tool going forward. She is the villain of the film, not predator-boy.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Captain Terror » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:52 am

Wooley wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:30 pm
No, I have never seen the Metropolis of Horror.
At least, not until now.
I would've replied sooner but this post gave me a Fred Sanford-style heart attack.....LOL

I was about Popcorn's age the first time I saw this and my reaction was probably similar to his. Cool, but not the greatest thing ever. Didn't help that my only option was a wretched public domain VHS, so some of the camera tricks weren't even visible. Over time of course, I came to love it much more. So while it's hard to imagine my life without Nosferatu in it, waiting this long might have been the right thing for you. You've got the advantage of decades of horror films (and films, period) under your belt that I didn't.

But yeah to everything you said. I think if there's a flaw it's in Harker/Hutter's performance (which was amusingly addressed in Shadow of the Vampire). But I've really come to appreciate Greta Schroeder's performance over the years. She's way more subdued than her hubby, like she's in a trance or something, and I initially found her kind of tedious but now I feel like she contributes to the "oozing dread" you mentioned. Dread, melancholy, whatever you want to call it. This is one of my favorite images from the film (or ANY film):

Image

So I say BOLLOCKS to the idea that the non-Schreck scenes are boring!

And a big YES to Renfield. The most maniacal laugh ever (and we can't even hear it!) and he just comes across as way more bat-sh*t than Dwight Frye. (hee hee...bat.) Dwight is my man, of course, but Granach just seems like much more of a legitimate threat to murder someone.

And finally, like I said about Phantom earlier, this is one that benefits from being silent. Given the acting styles of the day, actually hearing Dracula's voice could only dilute the effect of his image, imo.

ps--hard to believe this is just a couple of years shy of 100 years old
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:53 am

crumbsroom wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:19 pm
I'm with Popcorn on Nosferatu. Orloff as a physical specimen is far and away the greatest vampire in film. That can't be over stated. The connective tissue between his scenes doesn't mean much to me though.

I don't even know what my favourite Dracula film would be. Well, of course I actually do (it's Blood for Dracula) but that hardly treats the source very seriously. For faithful adaptations it's probably Horror of Dracula. I guess I don't really like Stoker's tale all that much to begin with.

Of course I don't need to state that Martin is the best vampire movie of all. That should be obvs, right?
I have to say I am shocked by the responses to Nosferatu. I was that struck by it as a film, not just as a performance (like There Will Be Blood, in which only watching DDL kept me watching the film). I mean for it to instantly pass all the other vampire movies I've seen, even Fright Night (!), it was obviously more to me than just Schreck. But I'll have a lot more to say about that when I review my next film.

I've never seen Martin. Just didn't look like my kinda thing.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:00 am

Well, for what it's worth, I may warm up to it some more if I watch it again in the future (this has happened before with stuff like Evil Dead I/II, Suspiria, The Elephant Man, Full Metal Jacket, etc.). I'll just see what happens. I think Sunrise will probably be my next Murnau film though, whenever I'll get around to it that is.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by crumbsroom » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:45 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:59 pm
OH, thank god. We can be friends again.
We'll always have Pittsburgh.

Martin is top 15 best horror films of all time in my estimation.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by crumbsroom » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:49 am

For those coming to Nosferatu's defense, my relative coldness to much of it is not something I'm passionate about. I don't see any reason to argue against anyone who wants to claim it as one of the greats. I have no doubt it is. But for me personally, after having watched it probably 7 or 8 times (first time when I was maybe 7, most recently within the last year) it just doesn't hit me like other great films do. I've always like it a lot. And I don't think I would ever call any of it boring. But it just doesn't sink into my blood and that's what I want from this kind of film. I'm always just kind of 'yeah, okay, good'. Schreck almost exclusively is what bring me back repeatedly though.

There are no worries here that I prefer Prom Night to this :)
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by crumbsroom » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:52 am

Wooley wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:53 am

I've never seen Martin. Just didn't look like my kinda thing.
I have no idea if you would like it or not, it is likely a polarizing movie, but there is no reason to assume this wouldn't be your thing. It must be given a chance. It's objectively one of the greatest vampire films. Objectively one of the greatest horror films of the 70's. And objectively George Romero's best movie (well, maybe not objectively this, but I'm saying it anyway).
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Captain Terror » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:00 am

Martin also has my full support, although it might not fit your October profile. But you should definitely check it out
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by crumbsroom » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:07 am

Captain Terror wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:00 am
Martin also has my full support, although it might not fit your October profile. But you should definitely check it out
Considerin Wooley's feelings on Black Christmas not being enough of a horror film for October, I would definitely discourage it as a seasonal watch. It is a film about de-mythologizing vampire lore (sometimes I think the only vampire films I really end up loving). It under cuts virtually every horror trope you can think of. But as a film it is complete aces. Beautiful, sad, challenging, horrifying. All the good things in life.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Rump » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:13 am

Wooley wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:06 pm

Image
Awwww i loved Ghost and i just looked up the actress and now want to binge watch Orphan Black
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Takoma1 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:14 am

Wooley wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:50 am
Yeah, I agree that it succeeds in the way you say.
And I agree with the innovative satisfying final act.
I would correct that
Ghost doesn't take him out preemptively as a predator, she says out loud that it's basically done out of jealousy. She doesn't like all the attention he gives the other girls instead of her. So it's a little more messed up and not as neat as that. Ghost is a dangerously mentally ill child and she straight-up murders that dude by tricking Brigitte into thinking he attacked her. Did he deserve an ill fate, sure, absolutely, but did he deserve that fate? Eh, maybe in tropish slasher rules, but this movie and its predecessor feel like they are trying to be smarter than that. They actually seem to start showing him trying to be human a little bit, right before she pulls what she does, which is why the (faked) rape seems so jarring. If he had been set up as that level of predator it would have seemed almost expected. Anyway, Ghost fucking murders him and murders the head of the Center and imprisons Brigitte to use as a murder-tool going forward. She is the villain of the film, not predator-boy.
Well, although
it's true that Ghost is the villain of the film, I can't really be overly bothered by Tyler's death. He sexually exploits teenage girls who are mentally ill/addicts. He undermines their recovery by providing them with drugs. He gets off on having power over them.

I mean, in the first film Ginger kills several people were weren't anywhere near as "deserving" as Tyler.

And he courts the disaster by his treatment of her. I mean, it's pretty ominous when Ghost tells Bridgette "We have an understanding," knowing that she's talking about this guy.
Wooley wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:53 am
I've never seen Martin. Just didn't look like my kinda thing.
Martin is my favorite horror movie. And it isn't even close.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Rump » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:19 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:14 am
Well, although
it's true that Ghost is the villain of the film, I can't really be overly bothered by Tyler's death. He sexually exploits teenage girls who are mentally ill/addicts. He undermines their recovery by providing them with drugs. He gets off on having power over them.

I mean, in the first film Ginger kills several people were weren't anywhere near as "deserving" as Tyler.

And he courts the disaster by his treatment of her. I mean, it's pretty ominous when Ghost tells Bridgette "We have an understanding," knowing that she's talking about this guy.


Martin is my favorite horror movie. And it isn't even close.
But what about Interview With the Vampire it's so gothy and dripping in homo-erotcism :P
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by crumbsroom » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:41 am

Rump wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:19 am
But what about Interview With the Vampire it's so gothy and dripping in homo-erotcism :P
I can almost appreciate how Interview takes everything I hate about vampire films and amps it up to the worst possible levels.

Almost appreciating isn't quite enough though it seems.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Takoma1 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:49 am

Rump wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:19 am
But what about Interview With the Vampire it's so gothy and dripping in homo-erotcism :P
When I was in elementary school and this movie was coming out it was SO built up as being scary and sexy. And then a few years later I caught it on TV and I was like, wut.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by crumbsroom » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:08 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:49 am
When I was in elementary school and this movie was coming out it was SO built up as being scary and sexy. And then a few years later I caught it on TV and I was like, wut.
I'm so old. I went and saw this with a bunch of people from my residence in first year university.

And the worst part is I remember really liking it all the way back then.

Double Ugh.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:59 am

crumbsroom wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:52 am
I have no idea if you would like it or not, it is likely a polarizing movie, but there is no reason to assume this wouldn't be your thing. It must be given a chance. It's objectively one of the greatest vampire films. Objectively one of the greatest horror films of the 70's. And objectively George Romero's best movie (well, maybe not objectively this, but I'm saying it anyway).
I have no objection. I can't promise I'll get to it this year, but I can get to it eventually.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:05 am

Rump wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:13 am
Awwww i loved Ghost and i just looked up the actress and now want to binge watch Orphan Black
Well, that's the thing,
even the fact that Ghost doesn't suck (as just this annoying, difficult, really just making things harder most of the time except when she saves Brigitte's life) is actually a spoiler. It's the big surprise of the movie. I mean, she's the fucking worst actually, but in a villainous way, not in the way we were sold for most of the movie.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:22 am

Takoma1 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:14 am
Well, although
it's true that Ghost is the villain of the film, I can't really be overly bothered by Tyler's death. He sexually exploits teenage girls who are mentally ill/addicts. He undermines their recovery by providing them with drugs. He gets off on having power over them.

I mean, in the first film Ginger kills several people were weren't anywhere near as "deserving" as Tyler.

And he courts the disaster by his treatment of her. I mean, it's pretty ominous when Ghost tells Bridgette "We have an understanding," knowing that she's talking about this guy.


Martin is my favorite horror movie. And it isn't even close.
No, no, that's not what I mean about Pretty Boy.
What I mean is just that it didn't feel in congruity with the tone the film and its predecessor was setting. It's not a tropey slasher or something it has a much more real-world morality. So I just felt
that his death, in the context of the film itself, is portrayed not as justice, it's murder, and that's obviously what the filmmakers intended because it is the action that identifies Ghost to Brigitte as the real villain of the story. From that moment on they are adversaries because she sees it as a betrayal and an injustice because, while she may (rightly) loathe him and the audience would like to see some justice on him, they were actually working together until Ghost's faked-rape pushes Brigitte over the edge and causes her to put a noose around him and kick the chair out, so to speak, and she knows, after Ghosts admission, that she murdered him.
None of that has anything to do with how I, or you, or the audience in general feels about the character, it's about the morality that exists within the films and the fact that Ghost tricked her into betraying her own morality.
That's what I'm on about.

And yes, I know Martin is your favorite Horror movie. I pay attention around here.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by daakmore » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:25 am

I had no real notion of Nosferatu until I saw Shadow of the Vampire, but inspired by the fictional making of showing some genuine dread in silent films I gave the original a viewing. It was my first silent film and it lead to me many more, it is still my favorite vampire film, the film simply has dread to spare, every frame oozes it. Honestly Max Schrek as Count Orlok is probably top 5 performances all time for me and the rising from the coffin scene is among my favorite horror scenes also.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:27 am

Rump wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:19 am
But what about Interview With the Vampire it's so gothy and dripping in homo-erotcism :P
Yeah, but some fuckass at the studio ruined it. You can fucking tell. I mean, it's not great anyway, but it's not bad, it's a cool story and they were mostly pulling it off, and then it's like the entire 3rd act gets cut down to like 15 minutes and none of it makes sense and it's just a fucking mess.
I suspect if there could ever be a Director's Cut of that one, a movie I've never loved to be honest, it would be pretty good.

But I don't think there's any saving Coppola's Dracula.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:31 am

I would like to include, here, Roger Ebert's "write-up" of Nosferatu for his Great Films series.
This is not to offer Roger Ebert's opinion as some kind of "evidence" that the film is better than just Schreck's vampire, but rather that he points out a number of the strengths of the film that are worth considering, including why it is a better vampire film than all the others, including Browning's Dracula (which I actually really like).
I don't actually even agree with him on several points, but I think it maybe points out some of the things that I do think are great about it.

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/grea ... eratu-1922
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:36 am

daakmore wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:25 am
I had no real notion of Nosferatu until I saw Shadow of the Vampire, but inspired by the fictional making of showing some genuine dread in silent films I gave the original a viewing. It was my first silent film and it lead to me many more, it is still my favorite vampire film, the film simply has dread to spare, every frame oozes it. Honestly Max Schrek as Count Orlok is probably top 5 performances all time for me and the rising from the coffin scene is among my favorite horror scenes also.
Dude, that shit was off the hook!
I think I'd seen it in some montages or something in the past but I'd forgotten it and when I saw it, especially in the context of the film, and then the absolute terror that Hutter/Harker shows in reaction to it... I mean, that's so important to the movie and so missing from practically every other horror movie I've ever seen is a grown, fit man in absolute terror. It may seem like a subtle thing, but it's not something you really see a lot in horror movies, a grown-ass man in absolute terror, unable to do anything, just cowering like a child hiding his head under the blanket hoping the monster won't come. I mean, that is one of the most chilling moments I can think of in horror cinema and in 1922?! Come on.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Captain Terror » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:44 am

Another random bit that I love, and don't ask me to explain why, is when the crowd is chasing Renfield through the countryside and they tear up the scarecrow as they pass. That just does it for me, for reasons unknown.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:56 am

Captain Terror wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:44 am
Another random bit that I love, and don't ask me to explain why, is when the crowd is chasing Renfield through the countryside and they tear up the scarecrow as they pass. That just does it for me, for reasons unknown.
Oh yeah, I thought that whole scene where he's hiding and outsmarting them was yet another good one.
Renfield is really a character I just love. I loved Dwight Frye's portrayal in the '31 take, I loved Tom Waites' performance in the largely lame and dreadful Coppola production, and I saw Dracula as a play when I was 11 years old and that Renfield is the only part of the play I remember. Not the vampire or Mina or Lucy (rowr, why is Lucy always portrayed as hot as ballz), but Renfield.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:57 am

By the way, for anyone who remembers him, I am watching a movie right now, for the first time, in honor of MASSIVEminiature.
This one's for you, old friend.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:18 am

Need some more atmosphere in here before I can write up anything else.
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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:19 am

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Re: Wooley's Half-Ass Horrorthon 2 (Horrorthon 14)

Post by Wooley » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:22 am

And, on a lighter note...
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