Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

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The Nameless Two
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Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:50 pm

Extension of Thor's billionaires thread
Stu wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:59 am
Tolkien white guys
I do find it interesting how no one has picked apart LOTR, if not intentional (I dunno about Tolkien, really, his history is loaded to say the least) but certainly in it's effect. It's just this giant biosphere of white, 50 shades of white, everything's white and know what isn't? The "evil". Oh yes, slap a Cockney accent on them orcs in the film adaptations and everything is hunky dory, right? WRONG. No wonder Nazi Germany was so impressed by his text, Tolkien, in all of his revolt, couldn't escape just how white his novels are, and how the orcs best represent the white fear, or, the "many". The nameless hoards. The savages. The marauders. Legion. Hive mind. Analogs of our colonialist fears as being "free thinkers"... there is so much unspoken subtext which seemingly just goes over the heads of people given the series reputation as a work of quality. I'm not so sure these days (not that I've always had my doubts), especially growing up in the horror show that is Canada's treatment of Indigenous people (Sure enough, British Columbia has named three mountains after Tolkien and LOTR characters in "Mt. Gandalf" and "Mt. Aragorn"... wonder what their historical names are). Let's just mention New Zealand's problem with racism and leave it at that, I have our island to worry about

What I'm getting at is that the subtext is one of those stories which provide a safety blanket for the worst kinds of people, despite the quality (of the films, at least, Tolkien kinda sucks as a writer). It's a white power trip, everything gets solved with the idea of whiteness. There is not a lot of gray area in it's proceedings, it's Black vs White. That white, purifying light being shone throughout as a solution to insurmountable odds. There is no room for darkness in this tale. The only diversity found in within the white race - Elves, Dwarves, Humans, all white. Whitest god damned movies ever put to film, one step away from being called "Birth of a Nation"... which is interesting because of the speculation that Middle Earth represents the very earth we live on in it's earliest phases of existence. We are all spawned from white, purifying light, everyone! Can you believe it? Hahahahaha *screams*. Fucking Catholics, seriously

The problem with art... in general... is it too often acts as a Trojan horse for ill ideology. No matter how good your intentions are, how pure they are, there is no escaping the forest which has risen from these seeds. Now pry my blu ray boxset of the extended editions from my cold, dead hands you mongrels! YOU SHALL NOT PASS

*taps forehead twice*
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MrCarmady
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by MrCarmady » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:01 pm

Tolkien was definitely racist as fuck but I think you have to make some allowances for the time he wrote in (and both the books and the movies are just so damn good). Luckily for him, he's not JKR and isn't spewing his intolerant opinions all over Twitter.
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:43 pm

Any story that follows a straight ahead "good vs. evil" pattern will essentialize the "goodness" of the protagonists and the "badness" of the villains. And when any group is essentialized as "evil" one can imagine that this code for the "supremacy" of the target audience over their real-world rivals. Such tales have their place. Not every story should be an "ironic" or "gritty" or "meta" post-modern deconstruction of good and evil.

And don't doubt for a second that you're not sucker for enduring ideas about essential good and essential evil. The typical poster here only need imagine a "Trump voter" or "gender critical feminist" to fall back into the Manichean pattern.
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by MrCarmady » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:02 pm

The typical poster here only need imagine a "Trump voter" or "gender critical feminist" to fall back into the Manichean pattern.
A lot of the former aren't evil people, just idiots. The latter is an ideology I disagree with but depending on how it's expressed I would also be hesitant to call them essentially evil, just misguided. It's a provocative point you're making, though.
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:55 pm

MrCarmady wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:01 pm
Tolkien was definitely racist as fuck but I think you have to make some allowances for the time he wrote in (and both the books and the movies are just so damn good). Luckily for him, he's not JKR and isn't spewing his intolerant opinions all over Twitter.
People lend this "credit" to HP Lovecraft and I feel like the only path forward is through post-modernizing the concept, as Alan Moore has done with his "Lovecraftian" work, and that we're working too thoroughly with antiquated thought when, in Yarn's case, we should really be getting with the times here and making our own out of what once was. The black and white framework is there, now I want some colours. I wonder what LOTR would look like if produced today, certainly there would be more room for whatever the hell Yarn is on about in regards to irony and whatever *wretches* what a simp
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:56 pm

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:43 pm
And don't doubt for a second that you're not sucker for enduring ideas about essential good and essential evil.
Are you kidding me? Get out of here

Look, I have one basic rule - no physical harm or death. If you look at one of my posts and kill yourself, whatever, it's out of my reach. Every time I press "submit" I'm submitting myself to the world to have it's way with me. I've given you all of the chances, now STRIKE
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by topherH » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:08 pm

No, but it needs its statue taken down.
State of Siege |Gavras, 1972| +
Deadpool |Miller, 2016| +
Z |Gavras, 1969| -
The Confession |Gavras, 1970| +
Missing |Gavras, 1982| +
The Revenant |Inarritu, 2015| +
The Hateful Eight |Tarantino, 2015| +

+ Recommended
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:17 pm

topherH wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:08 pm
No, but it needs its statue taken down.
Having a hard time processing the joke here so I wouldn't mind elaboration on the "No" because that surely contradicts your following statement

Fun song, on topic of those Catholics:
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by topherH » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:40 pm

The Nameless Two wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:17 pm
Having a hard time processing the joke here so I wouldn't mind elaboration on the "No" because that surely contradicts your following statement

Fun song, on topic of those Catholics:
Long day at work, mindset a bit off, didn't receive my horror dvd's in the mail today, seems like everyone is obsessed with taking down statues lately.
State of Siege |Gavras, 1972| +
Deadpool |Miller, 2016| +
Z |Gavras, 1969| -
The Confession |Gavras, 1970| +
Missing |Gavras, 1982| +
The Revenant |Inarritu, 2015| +
The Hateful Eight |Tarantino, 2015| +

+ Recommended
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:01 pm

The Nameless Two wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:56 pm
Are you kidding me? Get out of here

Look, I have one basic rule - no physical harm or death. If you look at one of my posts and kill yourself, whatever, it's out of my reach. Every time I press "submit" I'm submitting myself to the world to have it's way with me. I've given you all of the chances, now STRIKE
I don't recall Tolkien physically harming or killing anyone either, especially not fantasy species which do not exist IRL. Tolkien could say, "If you read one of my books and become a racist or or harm someone, whatever, it' out of my reach. Every time I write a book, I am submitting it to the world to do with it what it will."

And yet here you are putting him on trial for "white supremacy" while protesting that you're just typing words...
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:14 pm

topherH wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:40 pm
Long day at work, mindset a bit off, didn't receive my horror dvd's in the mail today, seems like everyone is obsessed with taking down statues lately.
Well, I certainly don't want anyone to go around burning their extended editions so that is probably not my intent here, though if it comes down to it, whatever, I'm there for the bonfire. I don't hold onto the past all that tight

There is a lot one can learn from the LOTR trilogy, racial supremacy aside. They are marvelously crafted movies and it isn't like the early 2000s were all that ripe for social consciousness. That being said, the Hobbit movies were in the realm of social consciousness and are still white af, so who knows. Maybe Peter Jackson sucks, but he did make Dead Alive so he gets an infinite pass in my books. It's not like the text gives one much to work with, but I don't understand why we can't have a spectrum without altering the text to a significant degree. It's not like you can't have a diverse spectrum of humans, dwarves, and elves. This is why Tolkien had to do so much dodging throughout his life, it spoke volumes. Sure enough as I go digging through the internet there are articles which mirror my thesis

A similar history is found in Minor Threat's infamous song "Guilty for Being White" which, of course, was misconstrued by white supremacists as a criticism of the notion of white guilt when it is very plain in it's text that white people are guilty for their crimes against humanity, nothing deep or subversive but those white supremacists are like ticks when they find something to feast on
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by The Nameless Two » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:20 pm

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:01 pm
I don't recall Tolkien physically harming or killing anyone either, especially not fantasy species which do not exist IRL.
He fought in WW1. Do you live in the world's stinkiest bubble or something? Are you honestly this fucking stupid? You are not worth anyone's precious time. Find somewhere else for your drugs.
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by The Nameless Two » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:39 am

I'm only replying to the rest because I saw the cretin online again and need to make this perfectly crystal clear
Tolkien could say, "If you read one of my books and become a racist or or harm someone, whatever, it' out of my reach. Every time I write a book, I am submitting it to the world to do with it what it will."

And yet here you are putting him on trial for "white supremacy" while protesting that you're just typing words...
Seriously, are you okay, buddy? Do you have a semblance of a clue as to what point you are trying to make? Does my morality really confound you to such levels? Do you need the suicide hotline? Where am I protesting? Of COURSE when art is submitted it is subject to the Many where I am One, it's not like I'm the Johnny fucking Appleseed of white idealism here. I happen to have a decent vetting process when it comes to who reads what, it's not like I'm some blogger who gets millions of views, I'm humble in who I allow in my realm of esoteric nonsense. I'm standing naked in front of my window with my curtains shut, come at me bro - it's called trust. I trust you fucking people. I'm not the one who needs to "defend" my "work" from white supremacist bodies of thought and process. Yeah, I'm just typing words, bitch, deal with it
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by DaMU » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:15 am

I think a united front of different "races" that all happen to be white defeating swarthy enemies carries connotations that can't really be avoided; although you can recognize the context of the story's creation, the stories it's deliberately pulling from, the nature of its author.

I find that the more I understand about an author, the more I can... not forgive the choices they make, but better contextualize them, which makes them feel - at the least - more comprehensible and capable of compartmentalization.

Someone online calls this the Ewok Theory. Most people like Return of the Jedi while also rolling their eyes at the Ewoks. Recognizing problematic elements of a story don't require abandonment of the story, just.. you know, recognition. I still read Lovecraft from time to time. I'm just better at noticing when bro is being shitty.
NOTE:
The above-written is wholly and solely the perspective of DaMU and should not be taken as an effort to rile, malign, or diminish you, dummo.
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by The Nameless Two » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:53 am

DaMU wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:15 am
I think a united front of different "races" that all happen to be white defeating swarthy enemies carries connotations that can't really be avoided; although you can recognize the context of the story's creation, the stories it's deliberately pulling from, the nature of its author.

I find that the more I understand about an author, the more I can... not forgive the choices they make, but better contextualize them, which makes them feel - at the least - more comprehensible and capable of compartmentalization.

Someone online calls this the Ewok Theory. Most people like Return of the Jedi while also rolling their eyes at the Ewoks. Recognizing problematic elements of a story don't require abandonment of the story, just.. you know, recognition. I still read Lovecraft from time to time. I'm just better at noticing when bro is being shitty.
I think this is fair play - I'm not a book burner, again, I'm more an advocate of the whole idea of having a disclaimer before being introduced to antique works (seriously, everything "before Covid" is an antique by this point). Janson was right to warn me before diving into Crowley because wow is he troubling. Fascinating history but I have to be very very careful about who I sing my praises towards, and to not let myself go off the deep end when it comes to this stuff. Getting further into The Book of Lies and I'm starting to feel Crowley's ideology come apart, it's definitely an antique.

It seems like everything gets radically democratized in art at some point - you have Nazi My Little Ponies and LGBTQ+ My Little Ponies having a little pony war on some sectors of the internet. Pepe the frog was an innocent construct until the Alt-Right got their mitts on it and potentially swung the election as a result of meme warfare. Harry Potter is just a bloodbath right now. Art is being erased for crossing the lines of racist ideologies left right and center. Two of my favorite works, Transmetropolitan and Planescape Torment belong to sex pests of the sort who abused me when I was 12-16. Everything seems to be going to Hell in a hand basket so why not just really throw it all out there. Star Wars is troubling af, like, holy shit have you watched The Phantom Menace recently? George Lucas is something else.

There is a strong argument found in my idea of a "vetting process". Enter at your own risk! Also, here's the beginner's guide to where exactly this art is coming from and why you should proceed with caution. This art stuff is dangerous and if we aren't careful we may just lose our favorite indulgences in the fire. I'm positive that you know what you are doing but, I dunno, Yarn? That's when I get bothered by what's all transpiring out there. This was especially troubling back in the RT days when we were fighting with literal Nazis and Alt-Right bloggers, it's not like we extinguished these ideologies but, I dunno, potentially fanned the flames. Who knows what Yarn is doing right now? I imagine he's doing unspeakable things to himself with a rosary but I can't be too sure. At least you all know where I am and what I'm doing with myself, thanks for not siccing the swat team on me <3
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by The Nameless Two » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:03 am

This may as well be the White Supremacy Thread so I'm honestly curious about the line between white identity and white supremacy. This is another topic which has spawned in Thor's wonderful Marvel thread. Just to make this entirely about me, I'm very white. It takes a lot of digging through my Dutch, German, English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh heritage to find the Puerto Rican roots. I'm a ginger, my skin is fair, and my ancestors probably did unspeakably horrible things which reverberate through history to this climactic point where shit is well and truly "cray". So here is my essay on "white idealism" and how ugly such a notion is

Given that past, present, and future exist simultaneously for me and my infinite universe theory, it's hard not to get lost in one's imagination of my viking heritage - I am every swing of an axe penetrating skull, I am every torch lit hut, I am every screaming child, I am every raped mother. I am Captain Cook being thrown off the cliff by the indigenous chief. I am the general in William Wallace's army being executed by the English. I am the English royalty who eloped with the gardener resulting in exile. I am the subjugated and subjugation united

If there is one thing one comes to understand about these white histories is that they are all rooted in the practice of black magic. Magic is so abused by white supremacy it makes me sick, fucking Nazis and their spears of longinus and whatnot so let me try my best to clear the air here. My window is open, curtains closed, I am naked, come at me as you will. I showered today so no worries

RIDICULOUS NEW WAVE MAGIC TIME

My father who we shall name Odin's numerology is 22 while I'm an 11 - 33 is the Number - Father and Sun are One - I am One of Two - Two is Mother and Father - One is I - I Am Libra - The Great Scale works in 3 - Left Fulcrum Right - O I shall Even the Odds - 0 to 1 - 1 is All - Screw You Crowley - My Math Now

11 = 2 or The Priestess. I am Two Magus where there can Only Be One. The cosmic joke I possess is Two Keys. One works, One does not. 1=1, 1=0 (?). Now crank it to 11 -> Wands, Swords, Cups, and Pentacles for everyone! Jackpot!

I hope my spell encourages the best art this world has ever witnessed. Art so potent a Nazi's head will simply go as a result of our collective psychic prowess:
Image

I'm just trying to keep you all safe out there in my best approximation of what's all going down - and the forces we have to compete with. I have my foundations which I respect, and if there is one thing I know it's that I understand exactly who we are dealing with here. I can sniff white supremacy out from miles away, my Dutch great grandfather was a Nazi hunter, a key figure in the Dutch resistance. I hail from one of the occult capitols of the world, I'm not a construct of the past but an idea of how we can reinforce the art of the future and to make it safe and secure so that power mongers can't wrap their filthy mitts around these constructs. Art simply isn't careful enough, and, quite frankly, I want some revenge for all of this pain and suffering. I want to lock white supremacy out of our world and throw away the key which works, and keep the one which does not - forever taunting them in their cage with the idea that freedom is within reach. It is not, not when I'm around
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by MrCarmady » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:29 am

I googled Transmetropolitan and for a second freaked out because I love Warren Ellis then realised there's two Warren Ellises, what a relief.
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by The Nameless Two » Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:21 pm

MrCarmady wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:29 am
I googled Transmetropolitan and for a second freaked out because I love Warren Ellis then realised there's two Warren Ellises, what a relief.
You thinking of Nick Cave's buddy there? Much respect for him

I would still recommend Transmetropolitan, just, idk, download it and don't bother paying the man for it. I feel like it's more relevant than ever, especially as a political commentary of the states. It takes a mad, sick bastard to write this kind of stuff, I guess
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by MrCarmady » Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:56 pm

Yeah I was. Cool, I'll check it out.
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by Stu » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:57 am

DaMU wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:15 am
I think a united front of different "races" that all happen to be white defeating swarthy enemies carries connotations that can't really be avoided; although you can recognize the context of the story's creation, the stories it's deliberately pulling from, the nature of its author.
Lindsay Ellis went into some detail on this point in her great takedown of Bright, on how, even though Tolkien claimed to harbor an intense dislike of literary allegory, a certain amount of racial "coding" appearing in his works is still undeniable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLOxQxM ... .be&t=1444
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Re: Is The Lord of the Rings a white supremacist construct?

Post by The Nameless Two » Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm

Stu wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:57 am
Lindsay Ellis went into some detail on this point in her great takedown of Bright, on how, even though Tolkien claimed to harbor an intense dislike of literary allegory, a certain amount of racial "coding" appearing in his works is still undeniable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLOxQxM ... .be&t=1444
I have a trouble in the Donald Trump era regarding an author going on an "intent" stemmed defense of his or her work. Donald Trump's vocal "intent" is malleable to the circumstance, what is said is not necessarily what is thought. The great logical fallacy of my English class in high school was the idea of a wrong answer regarding one's interpretation, as if the author's intent rules as opposed to existing to be torn down and scavenging what all works for one's own artistic purposes. I feel like Lindsay Ellis doesn't go far enough here in regards to tearing down Tolkien's surface level defenses

I noticed that Lindsay Ellis has a video on "Dead Author Theory", which is very much the case today given the man is dead and no longer able to be further questioned for his beliefs leading to simple, token dismissal before going off about the purity of Northern Europe. Where true Germans once thrived. Dead Author Theory cannot exist without the other in regards to coding, it strikes me as a laziness where her video decries said laziness - the operating phrase should be "Bright's straight up fucking racist as shit, god damn, Max Landis should shove his intent all the way up his ass". Maybe she benefits from the systems she decries? This isn't lazy, some accidental blunder derived from a system who instills us with these prejudices... it's far more insidious than that. Lindsay Ellis subscribes to "be woke or go broke" and I'm not sure that I am convinced. I'm not down with the idea that this is largely just some lazy accident, nothing in a movie is an accident, if it's within the frame it's intentional (except for boom mics, and even then there are examples of boom mics being used to break the fourth wall of a production). Say it like it be, sister

So on the topic of things which are white supremacist constructs... 300! Uh oh, maybe I'm turning on ol' Frank Miller here, and Zach Snyder? Hahahaha, that guy. Yes, I'm excited for the Snyder cut but for all of the wrong reasons
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