YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:15 am

This is the initial post for The Quickmatch between World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)
This Rematch is complete as of 29 August 2013.
Selected by Shieldmaiden
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Essays for the Quickmatch of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999).
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:54 pm

dreiser wrote:Body and Soul is a solid movie even though I loathe the Dead End Kids. I really like Force of Evil and Humoresque as well.
I just finished watching Force of Evil. Man, that film has some marvelous photography!

And Garfield was a bit more rangy in his emoting in that one.
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:14 pm

Image

A Comparison of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)
Where Can I see It?

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The Daniel F. Galouye novel Simulacron-3 is available new, but you can find any number of used copies if you google 'simulacron 3 galouye,' after which you can add your favorite online bookstore if you want to narrow the search.
Barnes & Noble. -- Amazon. -- iTunes books. -- Voulez-vous qu'il en français?



ImageImageImage
Video Discs

Both movies are available in DVD format. Both are available in Blu-ray format.

1973 DVD: Amazon. -- DeepDiscount. -- CDUniverse. -- Amazon Region 2.
1973 Blu-ray: DeepDiscount. -- Amazon. -- CDUniverse.

1999 DVD: Target. -- Amazon. -- CDUniverse.
1999 Blu-ray: DeepDiscount. -- CDUniverse. -- Amazon. -- Walmart. -- Target.



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Soundtracks

The 1999 soundtrack is available as mp3s or a CD. The 1973 soundtrack is not in current release anywhere, as nearly as I can determine.

1999 CD: Amazon. -- CD Universe.
1999 mp3: Amazon. -- iTunes This is a "partial album" with 14 cuts available through iTunes.



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Other Sources
Netflix -- 1973 DVD. Netflix ships both DVDs at once, no matter what plan you are on. -- 1999 DVD and Blu-ray. This is a pan-and-scan release on DVD; the Blu-ray is 2.40:1 aspect ratio.

iTunes -- 1999 US store HD and SD, both widescreen. -- 1999 Botswana store. -- There are two entries for the 1999 film at iTunes. One is apparently available only from the Botswana store (bw)! Both SD and HD say they are widescreen. (No 1973 film at iTunes)

Amazon Instant Watch -- 1999 HD version. -- 1999 SD version. -- (No 1973 film on Instant)

VuDu -- 1999 via WalMart

Google searches: 'world on a wire youtube' -- 'the thirteenth floor youtube'


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Google searches: 'the thirteenth floor poster' -- 'world on a wire poster'


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Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by dreiser » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:58 am

YouTookMyName wrote: I just finished watching Force of Evil. Man, that film has some marvelous photography!

And Garfield was a bit more rangy in his emoting in that one.
Scorsese loves that film.
"I hate the dark, the sharks liars. And the stems of cherry..."

Like Someone in Love (Kiarostami, 2012) 4/10
Killing Them Softly (Dominik, 2012) 2/10
The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm (Pal/Levin, 1962) 6/10
The Dark Past (Mate', 1948) 7/10
New Rose Hotel (Ferrara, 1998) 3/10
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:33 pm

Whew! Okay, this one is finally underway officially.

I forgot that when I reserve a space for a post and then edit that post, the thread doesn't pop to page 1. :roll:
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:35 pm

YouTookMyName wrote:Whew! Okay, this one is finally underway officially.
Hmm. Well, while you do this one I guess I'd better get started on the Gojira Multimatch. It's coming up soon, and I can already see the headlights from here!
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:31 pm

Ahem! Somebody needs to post in here.
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:31 pm

You just did.
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:32 pm

I meant you need to post in here.
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:32 pm

I just did!
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:33 pm

Okay, smartass. You need to post in here, again!
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:34 pm

Image

A Comparison of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)
In the Cutting Room
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Ursula Elles and Marie Anne Gerhardt. Elles has no other credits for her work as editor. Gerhardt edited 10 titles between 1959 and 1973. World on a Wire was her last work in the film industry, as near as you can tell from IMDb. All her work as film editor was on TV projects.

Henry Richardson's first work as editor was for the 1955 short film A Man on the Beach. As far as this thread is concerned, Richardson gets editorial credit for The Thirteenth Floor. He was born in England in 1936, so he is about the same age as DP Michael Ballhaus who worked on the 1973 version of this story. Richardson's projects have ranged from sci-fi horror The Crawling Eye (1958) a Ray Harryhausen film, The Valley of Gwangi (1969) to Octopussy (1983), probably his highest profile project. He continued working at the editing bench for a decade after The Thirteenth Floor was released, but has no credits listed since 2009. Richardson was nominated for Best Film Editing at the 1986 Oscars for the 1985 film Runaway Train.



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Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:45 pm

Which of us do you think was more disappointed when we learned yesterday that, after pulling autograbs from the 1954 and 1956 Godzilla films, we'd have to pull all the frames manually for the Emmerich movie?
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:46 pm

Gort wrote:Which of us do you think was more disappointed when we learned yesterday that, after pulling autograbs from the 1954 and 1956 Godzilla films, we'd have to pull all the frames manually for the Emmerich movie?
Oh, you definitely were more disappointed. But not as disappointed as I was.
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:17 pm

Image

A Comparison of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)
At the Helm
Image
Reiner Werner Fassbinder wasn't as broadly known as Michael Bay or Stephen Spielberg. He probably didn't have as many detractors, because of the reduced circle of fame; but among those who know of his work he is revered. This is the first Fassbinder production I've ever seen. His films are widely discussed here at the corrie, and I wanted to see one or two of his works, but until Shieldmaiden suggested this Rematch it wasn't something that I made time to do. The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kent (1972), Ali: Fear Eats the Soul (1974), and Berlin Alexanderplatz (1980) are the titles I see mentioned here most often. Like Welt am Draht (World on a Wire), Berlin Alexanderplatz was made for television. But it has 14 episodes instead of only two. Fassbinder died of a drug overdose at age 37 with a script in progress beside him. During the period from 1966 until 1982 he managed to direct 44 titles. He has writer credit for 48 titles, but some are posthumous. Querelle (1982) was both his last directorial effort, and the last produced screenplay that he wrote.

Josef Rusnak has 15 titles to his credit as director. He first directed Kaltes Fieber (Cold Fever) in 1984. His latest released work was Beyond, released in 2012. He had directed 8 films already when he took on The Thirteenth Floor. Like Fassbinder, Rusnak directs for both TV and theatrical release, and he sometimes scripts the films that he makes.



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Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Hank » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:42 pm

Haha. Always entertaining when you two have conversations.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:10 am

An Essay by Shieldmaiden, who suggested the Rematch between:
A Comparison of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)

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How It All Ends...or Re-begins...or, well, Spoilers Abound!

She even sent me the GIFS for later in the essay!
Shieldmaiden wrote:Warning: This is going to be terribly spoilery, because I’m comparing the final scenes.
Both these films are what I would call reasonably faithful to the source book, considering their differing eras and audiences, but they feel drastically different, mainly for reasons of style. These stylistic differences reach an absurd climax in the final scenes – one static, built on lavish CGI spectacle, and the other kinetic, using no set at all. But, the endings diverge in an important narrative way as well. For context, in the book, Douglas Hall wakes to a baffled good health after being viciously sliced up by a laser gun. He realizes almost instantly that he must be in the real world, after a lifetime of existing as 000s and 111s. For all that, the sense of transition is incredibly casual. He looks out the window, sees what he’s always seen, talks to his girlfriend, Jinx, about their future, and decides to get to work:
  • I settled down in Hall’s chair, only then beginning to realize that
    I had actually risen up out of illusion into reality.

There's a similar matter-of-factness to the transition in The Thirteenth Floor, although everything's bigger and shinier. This new world demands reaction, even awe, and its ending says, "Why stop there?" in a way I might have appreciated if it hadn’t been so heavy-handed. Douglas Hall wakes up in a comfy dentist’s chair with a space-age headset. He wanders, dazed, into a beautiful room, golden-hued, perfect. Jane is there, wearing a filmy evening dress, and she’s perfect, too. The wind flutters the curtains and he looks out and sees a hazy, golden panorama of impossible towers and permanent sunset. Look, his dead mentor is alive, and waving to him from a glittering beach! Is this heaven? Or did the designer get a little carried away with the filters in his Photoshop Z3000? Even if Hall hadn’t just commented on the artificial color scheme of another computer generated world, it should be pretty clear to anyone that this new world looks even more fake than those he’s been in all this time. So, while Douglas has definitely moved up a layer, he hasn’t necessarily reached reality. How many more levels might there be? But, I can hear you thinking: “Wait a minute. Who's to say what looks fake or real? What if that world is real, and our world is fake?" Whoa, dude. And, then, in case anyone still doesn’t get it, the beautiful picture blinks off, like an old TV, and the credits roll.
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In World on a Wire, the transition is momentous, but conveyed with stark simplicity. Quick flashes of the lower-world death scene, where the camera slowly rises above Fred Stiller’s bullet-ridden body, alternate with the upper-world view of Fred on a table in a dark room. It must be a special room then, this real-world room of the future? Well, no. Fred and Eva are in a drab, ugly room, in an ordinary office building, a room with dark drapes all around and heavy metal blinds. But, it doesn’t matter. It’s a room of textures – wool sweaters, wooden furniture, soft hair, noisy blinds, scratchy drapes. It’s a room of space, a curtained stage for two in a pantomime of discovery. Fred crawls across the carpet, bangs on the closed blinds, laughs with glee at the world he sees through the windows, abolishing his doubt and ours. And, all the while, we’re going back and forth, the familiar droning buzz of the simulated world giving way to real-life silence as Eva watches Fred explore, waiting for him to come to her, to touch, to feel her for the first time. He picks her up and spins her around, then they roll around on the floor, laughing. It’s a moment of pure exuberance, satisfying and very real. Then, one final flash of the world he escaped, and it’s done.
Image
I’m incredibly biased toward Fassbinder, of course. I couldn’t hide it if I tried. But this comparison really wasn’t a set-up. I like certain aspects of both these films, and dislike others. But the ending of World on a Wire, in all its low-budget, actors-workshop enthusiasm, is my favorite scene from both these movies, and one of my favorite Fassbinder endings. It redeems the bad wigs and rough edges that went before. It makes me want to roll around on an ugly carpet.

The world is real!




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Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Shieldmaiden » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:38 am

Ah, my name up in lights! :P

It was fun to watch these back-to-back! I'm looking forward to your essays, YTMN/Gort.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:03 am

What I like about it is that you also read the novel!
EDIT: Is that formatting better?
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Shieldmaiden » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:23 am

YouTookMyName wrote:What I like about it is that you also read the novel!
I hate to disappoint you, but I only skimmed a few sections and searched for terms to find out how various plot points were handled in the book. I did read the last few pages carefully though, since I knew I would be talking primarily about the ending. I used Google Book's preview feature.

To be honest I wasn't too eager to read 176 pages of this:
  • The hypnostone presentation was a full production in itself, complete with two doctors in attendance. Without any inkling of the incongruous developments the evening held in futurity, I watched the proceedings with detached interest.
Haha.
YouTookMyName wrote:EDIT: Is that formatting better?
Yes, thanks.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:55 pm

Shieldmaiden wrote: To be honest I wasn't too eager to read 176 pages of this:
  • The hypnostone presentation was a full production in itself, complete with two doctors in attendance. Without any inkling of the incongruous developments the evening held in futurity, I watched the proceedings with detached interest.
Haha.
I know what you mean...having read 176 pages of that. Ha ha! You'll understand some of the comments I make about the novel, then. ;)
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:25 pm

Image

A Comparison of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)
The Writers
Image
The novel Simulacron-3 by Daniel F. Galouye is at times coherent, and at times a convoluted mess that seems to be written by a 9th-grader using all his latest vocabulary words (I say that because I used to be just such a 9th-grader. Ahem). By the time you finish the last page you feel satisfied that you've read a good story. There are a number of classic books that aren't really the best-written works, but when you balance the ideas with the style the ideas win. Because of Galouye's style it seems that he is stuffing too much information into his book. As a matter of fact, it isn't a plot-heavy piece at all; it only seems that way because of the over-wrought use of vocab. The front part of the book is all exposition: characters, back-stories, the political situation, the presence of constant polling by Government sanctioned pollsters.

For television Fritz Müller-Scherz and Reiner Werner Fassbinder had to take the essence of the story, and Fassbinder had to put it into visual form. The professional pollsters are dispensed with. Müller-Scherz produced 10 scripts that became motion pictures of one sort or another. World on a Wire was his first. In contrast, the same script was Fassbinder's 22nd script for a short, teleplay or feature film (it was his 20th directorial outing). The writers remain very close to the plot of the story, which may not be obvious on first viewing what with name changes, and the deletion of political ambitions. The politics of the novel is replaced with an attempt to use the Simulacron for prediction of capitalist market changes 20 years in the future. All-in-all the changes work quite well.

The 1999 film required even more compression than the German TV film, which at least has the luxury of being 212 minutes long. That gives it only half the run time of Fassbinder's version. Ravel Centeno-Rodriguez and Josef Rusnak pared things down even further. The 1999 story uses several short-cuts to avoid the elaboration that would be necessary to set up a number of the points that the longer version could leave in. For example, the corporation is now headed by the scientist who invented the virtual world. He doesn't work for anyone else. He is clearly murdered, there is no mystery except whodunit. The compression of time frame may also serve to make the story slightly more comprehensible (although I must admit I didn't exactly follow what was going on the first time I saw The Thirteenth Floor in 2000). Although Rusnak has continued to direct films, The Thirteenth Floor is his most recent produced screenplay. Centeno-Rodriguez has only one screenplay credit listed on IMDb. He owns a restaurant/bar in Hollywood [as of 2004], according to the IMDb page for his filmography.



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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Shieldmaiden » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:06 am

YouTookMyName wrote:The compression of time frame may also serve to make the story slightly more comprehensible (although I must admit I didn't exactly follow what was going on the first time I saw The Thirteenth Floor in 2000).
Yeah, I thought they did good job of making things clear in this one. Of course, I'd seen World on a Wire first, so it's a little hard for me to judge. But, that first consciousness transfer (Vincent D'Onofrio's) was really well done – clearly demonstrated visually, and set up so it was directly analogous to Douglas's to come.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:40 am

Overnight we reached 200010 page views in this thread. My foray in here just now would be 200011.

All due to links, links, links, no doubt.

Everything is written for the WoaW/t13F except my selection of Quotes. I expect to get graphics made for all the posts on Saturday, and that means I'll be on schedule for ending the Quickmatch next Saturday, the 31st.

Meanwhile, my older son will be visiting here for a couple of days next week, so it's important that all I have to do is sit down and post on those days.

It's fun to have Shieldmaiden actually responding to posts in here!

I may be late getting Godzilla underway. No one will care but me. Hee hee.
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:56 pm

A Comparison of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)

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Terminology in Science Fiction

They are supposed to slide off the tongues of the protagonists with the same ease as any other words do. Ansible radios are used in several Ursula LeGuin stories. Simulectronic. Simulacron-3. Bene gesserit. Ornithopter. All terms that the characters in Simulacron-3 and Dune use frequently. Star Wars characters talk about droids, and jumping to light speed, clones, light-sabers and vaporators easily. Isaac Asimov's characters might be robopsychologists, although not in the movie I, Robot based on one of his stories. And Star Trek's denizens talk about warp factors and beaming, M-class planets and phasers as if they are already everyday words. Riddick has his eyes "shined" in Pitch Black.

Unfortunately, these terms may not roll off the tongues of the readers as easily as they do off the tongues of the characters. When I was 13 and reading I, Robot for the first time, the term robopsychologist was robop-sychologist (I was pronouncing the 'p') in my mind until the word broke "robo-psychologist" at the edge of a page, and I had to laugh at my mistake.

The film adaptations of Galouye's 1964 novel treat the tech terms with different degrees of respect. Fassbinder allowed the simulation program to be called "Simulacron-1" in his film. But the writers of The Thirteenth Floor completely dissed that term, and only use the words "simulation" (8 times) and "simulated" (twice).

Back during the golden age of sci-fi it was de riguer to come up with terms that your characters would toss around to give their speech "authenticity." Some of the words became so authentic that we now use them in everyday speech. And of course, you can break sci-fi talk down into its buzzword components, and invent your own neologisms based on them!

Simulectronic never seems "real" to me as a word, no matter how many times Douglas Hall thinks or says it in Galouye's book. Galouye doesn't create many new words for his characters to spout, actually. So there was little need for Fassbinder and Müller-Scherz to incorporate odd-sounding terms into their film. It was 1973. Personal computers didn't yet exist, except as dreams in the minds of a few teenagers in California. "Computer" was still a futuristic-sounding word. So Rusnak and Centeno-Rodriguez simply didn't play the game of having jargon in their script. Both films are fine without it. But even to this day sci-fi writers pride themselves on coming up with terms to describe the world their characters inhabit.



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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:16 pm

Watching the Fassbinder film has the song Lili Marlene stuck in my head. I first heard the song in 1966 when I bought an LP by The New Vaudeville Band, entitled Winchester Cathedral. Second song in the video link is Winchester Cathedral. Their performance of Lili Marlene isn't on Youtube. But Marlene Dietrich's is.
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If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:29 pm

A Comparison of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)

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All In Your Head

There is a classic Twilight Zone episode in which a man condemned to death appears before a judge and is found guilty of a crime for which he will be immediately executed. He tries to explain that everyone there and everything they see is merely a figment of his imagination. Part of his nightmare. If he dies, the world vanishes with him. But they don't listen and execute him anyway. The entire world ceases to exist. For a time; then the convict wakes up, and although people (actors) have different roles, the same play goes forward. He is taken back to court to hear the verdict...and we know it will go just the same until he is executed again...and (we can be pretty sure) awakens again! I loved it as a kid. See it here with an ad or two. This TV program gives us the title for this essay, because the world of the story is all in one man's head.

The story that Daniel F. Galouye wrote is not quite like that. Even the heads exist as programmed algorithms within a bank of computing devices. The heads are as fictitious as the world they believe they live in. But they really cannot tell the difference. It all seems totally real to them, and it is disturbing for denizens of the simulation to learn that their world is not real, but a plaything of a "higher" level world. They have the bizarre experience of learning that the reality on which they base every action every day, is all in their heads.

TV Tropes has a listing of different tropes that revolve around imaginary worlds. One is called Recursive Reality, and these two movies fit into that particular trope pretty well. It is easy to notice that there is a similarity between The Thirteenth Floor and The Matrix, but one probably doesn't derive from the other, because they were released the same year. Perhaps notions in popular thought that led to the 1961 TZ episode converged again to give two film--makers the same basic ideas. One pair turned to a novel, one pair created their own story. But the idea is similar: a world exists in electronic circuitry and those experiencing the electronic world take it as reality. The difference is that The Matrix has real people plugged into the electronic feed, while Galouye's novel Simulacron-3 dispenses with the real bodies altogether. Based in Galouye's ideas, the people in The Thirteenth Floor and World on a Wire are total figments, electronic ghosts of a sort.

I find this discrepancy so fascinating that I wrote a novel called Life Is Not a Dream which was a film idea hatched when I was 16 years old, but the budget for it was greater than that of 2001 a Space Odyssey, and I knew I, a kid, would never ever get enough money to make it. Thirty-four years later I gave up on making the film and wrote it as a novel instead. You can buy it in print if you want, but I'll have an ebook out later this year. In my novel, as in the other stories listed here, there is a crucial aspect to the plot whether you see it on the screen or the page: the main character comes to the shocking conclusion that the world is not real. If it is not real, surely something else must be: so, what is real reality like?
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Galouye's protagonist Doug Hall wants to know. But in the midst of his quest he feels invalid, nothing but a fake. He believes that nothing he says or does will matter, and that drives him to try to understand how to go to wherever truly is real. He begins seeking a "contact unit" in his world, reasoning that whatever higher reality constructed the simulation he lives in, they must have used a system similar to that made by Reactions Incorporated to monitor their false world. As it turns out, there is a contact unit, and who that person is drives the end of the story. Fassbinder retains this idea, but Rusnak dispenses with it. Either way, the entire core of the story in all three cases revolves around the contact unit in the simulation, and then Doug Hall (or Fred Stiller) also seeking validation by becoming what we might think of as "a real boy." We can think of other characters in popular fiction who desire to become real. I guess this is a literary symbol of each human being's innate desire to matter, to amount to something, to become someone-loved-by-someone-else. This goes beyond "all in your head," and makes your validity a thing that is appreciated by another person. And that, we think, is fulfillment. It matters less to Douglas Hall that the world he inhabits at the very end of the story is real, than it matters that Jinx/Eva/Jane is real, and not only in his head.



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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Shieldmaiden » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:50 pm

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That screencap from World on a Wire. Hahahaha!
YouTookMyName wrote:Watching the Fassbinder film has the song Lili Marlene stuck in my head.
What did you think of the reenactment of Dishonored as the dinner club entertainment? The first time I saw it I had no idea what was going on there. Now I know that that was one of Fassbinder's favorite films.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:47 am

Shieldmaiden wrote:What did you think of the reenactment of Dishonored as the dinner club entertainment? The first time I saw it I had no idea what was going on there. Now I know that that was one of Fassbinder's favorite films.
Actually, I have never seen Dishonored, so I didn't know what that scene was supposed to represent. I thought it was very odd to have going on while Lili Marlene was playing, or had just been sung. Thanks for letting me know about this, I'll look it up and see if I can study it. Maybe even watch the film. I'm not sure I've ever seen anything with Dietrich. Surely I have, but I don't recall.

On your Criterion second part disc there's a documentary where someone talks about that scene, and the Dietrich impersonator. Have you watched that? Did they talk about Dishonored and I just didn't pick up on it?
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Shieldmaiden » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:55 am

And I didn't even notice which song was playing at that point, haha. I haven't seen Dishonored either, or watched the special features on my dvd. All I know is that the firing squad scene is from Dishonored. It's a strange thing to include, isn't it? She was pretty clearly lip-syncing at that point, though, I think. Which is sort of appropriate entertainment for a simulated world. :P
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:25 pm

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A Comparison of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)
Behind the Lens
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Production photo source: Sammlung Peter Gauhe/DIF, Foto: Peter Gauhe Adrian Hoven
(l to r) Fred Ilgner , Michael Ballhaus, Rainer Werner Fassbinder(Dreharbeiten)
Michael Ballhaus and Ulrich Prinz both receive credit for shooting Fassbinder's long TV feature. These men were given an exceptional task because Fassbinder and his three set designers put reflective surfaces everywhere. If you pay attention you will become suddenly aware that you are looking at a scene reflected in a mirror, a shiny metal sphere, or the surface of a fish tank! Ballhaus has 113 DP credits listed at IMDb. From his start in 1960, Welt am Draht is the 24th. He frequently worked with Fassbinder in his career. Ballhaus still works, having shot 3096 Days just this year (at age 78). He is the designated cinematographer for an announced film, Sinatra, which doesn't even have a release date, yet. Between 1988 and 2003 Ballhaus garnered three Oscar nominations. Ulrich Prinz has three credits in the Camera and Electrical department, with a single credit as Cinematographer, for World on a Wire.
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Wedigo von Schultzendorff creates the interesting look of this visual story. He clearly differentiates between the 1930s Simulacron world and the "real world" in which Doug Hall lives. Part of this is done by making use of lasers and computer screens along with technical lights for the modern time. The 1930s are dark and foreboding, lit like a film noir, and featuring muted colors (a "flaw" that Hall mentions to Jason Whitney when he re-emerges from the simulation the first time). Beginning with his first DP credit in 1982 for a TV movie, von Schultzendorff has had that role for 43 titles. Three films have been released this year with credits for him as cinematographer, and a fourth has been completed but not yet released. Since he was born in 1945, he is a post-WWII child, with possibly decades left to work if he goes for as long as Michael Ballhaus has.



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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:31 pm

Oldest young'un is on his way into town. No posts until Tuesday!
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
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If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:03 am

We climbed a 700 foot peak yesterday morning! Watched a couple movies together. He IM-ed with his girlfriend who was in Vietnam visiting her grandparents, and then went on a tour with her cousin to Thailand. It was sort of like he was here, but not entirely!

It was a good visit. But things are back to normal, so...a review:
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:04 am

A Comparison of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)
World on a Wire (1973) dir. Rainer Werner Fassbinder
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IMDb link 7.7/10 from 2,020 viewers RT-link 100% tomatometer; 82% viewers 2,602 votes

Year: 1973 Director: Rainer Werner Fassbinder -- Cast: Klaus Löwitsch, Barbara Valentin, Mascha Rabben, Karl Heinz Vosgerau, Wolfgang Schenck, Günter Lamprecht, Ulli Lommel -- Length: 205 min. Color/Mono

First of all, this is a two-part German television show. We'd call it a mini-series. Fassbinder didn't have much of a budget. As a result he shot on 16mm film. There was no money for set construction so he shot in locations that he could find and dress to suit his aims. There was no money for special effects, so there aren't any. Now, I think the restoration was released in Germany as a one-part theatrical film recently, but I can't find out for sure.

His co-writer, Fritz Müller-Scherz, says in a Criterion documentary that he and Fassbinder originally thought they had only 60 minutes to tell the story, not three hours and change. They had left in everything they wanted to include, all of what Müller-Scherz says is the interesting parts of the story. So when their screenplay ran long, it was not a problem. They didn't have to cut as much as they had feared.

The film leaves out two aspects of the novel that actually, to my mind, clutter up the book: Certified Reaction Monitors (pollsters) run around with government-sanctioned jobs to find out what people think. You have to answer them on pain of being fined. This messes with people's ability to go from place to place. And Simulacron-3 in the novel threatens these public employees with redundancy. It is they, not Foundation unions who protest the simulator. And there is an overt attempt by Siskins to install himself as President of the country, from which it will be a short leap to become dictator of the world, with Simulacron-3 at his back.

The Reaction Monitors are scrapped by the German film. The political angle is addressed by the inclusion of the Secretary of State among the characters. The mirror angle is introduced in this scene by Professor Vollmer's mirror-aided question of whether the Secretary is a real man or a mere projection of the idea of a man. An air-car that almost squashes Doug Hall in the novel is replaced by a palette of concrete blocks in the Fassbinder.

One effect that Fassbinder planned for the film is lost on modern, especially non-German viewers. He purposely casts very familiar German television has-beens in the roles of this movie so that people watching would have a sense of familiarity with the cast.
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The film is well-done, but talky and light on action, except that forced by the director onto his cast. In one scene Stiller rises from his seat, walks in a circle through the overly-large office where the meeting is, through two sets of doors, and takes his seat again. WTF? This is so clearly done to provide "action" that it destroys the moment for me. This is not the only example of this in the film, nor the worst. At other times the extreme low angles, and camera movements enhance the viewing experience. Since I am almost a total Fassbinder novice, I have no idea whether all this is to establish the weirdness of the fictional world within the film, or the sort of artistic sentiment that the director uses over and over in his films.

The second half is more "cinematic" than the first half. We get to see a cabin explode, although without the boom-porn of American directors (it only repeats once from a different angle). There was probably not the budget for any more pyrotechnics.

Here are some aspects of the film that I like:

Like: This is an art film. I like that part, but as with other kinds of art I might not like every manifestation of the art. For example, I like the whimsy that Fassbinder has with his blocking. But I don't necessarily like to see two executives simultaneously turn full-circle in their office chairs. The idea is cool. The real scene is a bit baffling. There is also clever and dynamic framing and camera motion throughout the film. But sometimes I get tired of noticing that I'm looking into a mirror. I like it when I become aware after the scene is under-way that one character is reflected in a mirrored furniture end while I see the other directly. But too often a camera move will point out that we're seeing a reflection.
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Like: When Fred Stiller visits the Simulacron-1 as a truck driver we see a very brief segment from his POV in the simulation. Then there is a zooming text message: "Fred Stiller Return," and then we learn that he has nearly died while his conscience was in the simulation (in the novel this occurs because someone set off a bomb, damaging one of the computers). At least this gives a feel, however remote, for the simulated world. The other excursion (for Fred to meet Einstein, the pre-programmed contact unit), everything seems just like Stiller's usual world.

Like: The actress who portrays Eva Vollmer, Mascha Rabben, is both beautiful and mysterious. She has very few acting credits listed at IMDb, this is her next-to-last. Like many of the people involved with this production she seems to have gotten out of show-business shortly afterward. Rabben does have a writing credit from 2009. She moved to India and then to Hollywood where she works as a translator and writer. She is perfect for this part; although low-key, that only adds to the mystery.

Like: Fassbinder manages to do quite a lot with his low budget, and I admire what he was able to pull off. He does create a world and peoples it with characters quite effectively. But ultimately the artifice grows tiresome, and on first viewing (and second) the film seems incoherent (at least to this viewer). It took me three viewings for things to seem to gel. Most viewers aren't going to spend that much time with this piece, I think.

Like: The jazz piece that was selected for the main theme is so cool and guitar-wonderful that I could listen to it for a long time and it would never grow old. (But most of the music seems forced into place, and chosen for its PD character.)

Like: There is one scene where a little boy sees Stiller right after the man has one of his headache attacks. The boy asks, "Are you sick?" And even though Stiller tries to leave with a clean break, the worried little boy follows him, still willing to help if possible. It is a strange scene because this is the only child we see in the entire film, and because the boy has streaks of dirt on his legs and face. Why so dirty? Does he symbolize anything? I don't recall this scene from the novel. There is not an analogue in the 1999 film. It is something unexplained and quirky, but still demonstrates that people in Stiller's world have compassion for others in trouble. I think.
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Here are some aspects of the film that I don't care for:
Don't Like: Because of the prevailing theory at the time that movies should, well, move, and because this is an intellectual story rather than an action story, Fassbinder has some of his characters move a lot and for no apparent reason.

Don't Like: It's a stylistic thing, but Fassbinder takes the very weak analogy of mirrors for Simulacron-1 to a ridiculous extent. It gets old by halfway through part one, and only grows moldier as the show progresses. It doesn't blow up anything, it just begins to attract attention to the gimmick instead of being some cool cinematographic angle that remains just below the level of consciousness.

Don't Like: Because of the low budget Fassbinder had no way to do visual effects, so for a lot of the film there is a bizarre audio effect that represents something happening. There is no difference between the real world and Simulacron-1 in looks or anything else. Most of the visitations to Sim-1 by people in the cast are made with us seeing them lying on a couch with a wired helmet on their heads. This leaves the simulated world kind of as a mere idea. Too bad.
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Don't Like: Some of the casting seems weird to me. But German sensibilities are different enough that I often get that impression from German films. More recent films from that nation seem to be better-cast (Jerichow, for example) but there is still an air of "this is another land" in the way German actors do their jobs. Somehow this detracts from this production where there is already weirdness afoot, mainly because I know it isn't intentional, but simply due to my American training for "correct cast types." My complaint here is not with Fassbinder's casting, but with my inability to see these people as well-cast.

Don't Like: So much of the dialogue is post-synced. In fact, it may all be ADR recording. The microphones seem so closely placed that you should see them in the shot, and exteriors sound the same as interiors. The re-recording leads to moments of lip flap and out-of-sync audio that has always bothered me since I was a kid. Not much of it is badly matched to the lips on the screen, but there is enough of it that it distracts me. If my German were still good enough for me to simply listen, and not read along, I would probably notice even more of this.

Don't Like: The set decoration is an odd mixture of modern chrome and glass with a lot of clutter-y objects used as accessories. If this is intended to set me off-kilter in preparation for the horror of this simulated world-spawning place, it works. But it draws attention to itself. Having seen no other Fassbinder I have no idea whether this is a common practice for him. I do know that this is his only foray into sci-fi. In the 1960s and 70s there was a tendency to design the sets so that they screamed "This. Is. The Future!" (think of the sets from Star Trek TOS). The trouble with this approach is that the film is apparently set in 1980. They talk about 2000 being 20 years away.
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Don't Like: The 1970s were a strange time in terms of both cinema and its themes, and its executions and the styles of dress and so forth. All this mixes together to provide an ick-factor that Fassbinder no doubt did not intend. But it is there, with all its bright colors and weird clothing. From the perspective of 40 years later it might give the effect of a charming retro look. But I never liked that look. And here it is for well over 3 hours.


If you have the 205 minutes and either understand German, or can read subtitles easily, this is worth your while just to experience it once. It helps if you know the plot from the novel. When I first watched the show I hadn't read Daniel F. Galouye's source book, and I had no idea what was and wasn't going on. That viewing wasn't very satisfying. It demands that you pay attention, for sure. Seeing the film three times more to prepare for this Quickmatch allowed a whole lot to make sense that didn't the first two times through. It is actually quite a competent adaptation of a novel that has delights and problems of its own. Many of the deletions that Fassbinder and Müller-Scherz make improve the plot a great deal. But I might not have sat through the entire production the first time without the incentive to decide whether it should become a Round Two Rematch. I certainly would never have watched it a second, third or fourth time! And it was in the re-watches that I began to see the goodness of the piece.



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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Shieldmaiden » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:12 pm

I can't believe you've watched this four times!! Some rambling thoughts in response:

Casting: These are all Fassbinder's 'people,' his regulars, faces I've seen a dozen times or more in his films. That doesn't mean I don't agree with you about the oddness of the some of the casting. Some of that applies to many of his films (Barbara Valentin, I'm looking at you), and some is peculiar to this film. To be brutally honest, I think Klaus Löwitsch only really works about half the time here. (Of course, that still makes him about five times more effective than Craig Bierko, haha.)

Set design: As I watched this time, I kept coming back to the question: why did Fassbinder choose to make this? Did he love the book? Was it extremely popular in Germany? Did the idea of a simulated world get under his skin? My best guess is that he just thought it would be fun. You call it 'whimsy,' and that sounds about right. He'd never done sci-fi before. It was an opportunity to use his huge stable of actors, to go crazy with camera shots and set design, to film mirrors within mirrors within mirrors, to be a little silly. The latter is the only explanation for Gloria's bed, for example, or, for that matter, Gloria herself!

Odd motion: I doubt if Fassbinder did things because he was expected to, because of "prevailing theories." He seems to march to his own beat. So, if Fred gets up and walks in a circle through the building, it's because Fassbinder wants to show he's a man of action, a misfit in the corporate world, and (to get a little meta) an action star. It's of a piece with the the staggering and somersaults and diving through windows. It may be silly, even campy, but it's a deliberate decision to substitute bodily movement for effects, and it puts an unfair amount of pressure on Löwitsch. When it works it really works, though. (See my essay on the ending.)
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:55 pm

Shieldmaiden wrote:I can't believe you've watched this four times!! Some rambling thoughts in response:

Casting: These are all Fassbinder's 'people,' his regulars, faces I've seen a dozen times or more in his films. That doesn't mean I don't agree with you about the oddness of the some of the casting. Some of that applies to many of his films (Barbara Valentin, I'm looking at you), and some is peculiar to this film. To be brutally honest, I think Klaus Löwitsch only really works about half the time here. (Of course, that still makes him about five times more effective than Craig Bierko, haha.)
Actually, I've seen the other version so many times that Bierko works, too, now. Ha ha! It's helpful to know that 1) these were Fassbinder's repertory company, and 2) that Klaus Löwitsch was an action star.
Shieldmaiden wrote:Set design: As I watched this time, I kept coming back to the question: why did Fassbinder choose to make this? Did he love the book? Was it extremely popular in Germany? Did the idea of a simulated world get under his skin? My best guess is that he just thought it would be fun. You call it 'whimsy,' and that sounds about right. He'd never done sci-fi before. It was an opportunity to use his huge stable of actors, to go crazy with camera shots and set design, to film mirrors within mirrors within mirrors, to be a little silly. The latter is the only explanation for Gloria's bed, for example, or, for that matter, Gloria herself!
His co-author, Fritz Müller-Scherz, only says that Fassbinder had read the book, and suggested that they could make it into a TV movie. Fassbinder was willing to spend a good portion of the money that the TV network paid them in order to buy the rights himself. Each writer had to pay DM 15,000 to get the rights. So your speculation is probably as valid as anyone else's. He clearly liked something about the story. Some idea grabbed him.
Shieldmaiden wrote:Odd motion: I doubt if Fassbinder did things because he was expected to, because of "prevailing theories." He seems to march to his own beat. So, if Fred gets up and walks in a circle through the building, it's because Fassbinder wants to show he's a man of action, a misfit in the corporate world, and (to get a little meta) an action star. It's of a piece with the the staggering and somersaults and diving through windows. It may be silly, even campy, but it's a deliberate decision to substitute bodily movement for effects, and it puts an unfair amount of pressure on Löwitsch. When it works it really works, though. (See my essay on the ending.)
Interesting thought. Movement becomes symbolic of character traits! Well, I don't think it works in the office scene. But I think it works when he's escaping his apartment and runs a great distance across the city-scape in order to do so. It works okay when he's fleeing the police. And it seems a bit odd when he's fleeing the people who suddenly know that he's a "murderer," just before the little boy asks, "Bist du krank?" which appears to be in a shopping mall. Did they have those in Germany back then?

In the "interrogation" scene where everyone, including Stiller thinks he's crazy, Fassbinder asks the man to act in some pretty weird ways. I think I'd understand this film better if it weren't the only Fassbinder project I'd ever seen!
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:57 pm

The idea that struck me for this essay is similar to the one that Shieldmaiden sent me later. Though they supposedly derive from the same story, the films are noticeably different to an extent that you don't often see in remakes. I think she picked up on this, too, which must mean it's real.

A Comparison of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)

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Same Story Different Vibes

I sometimes wonder how anything ever gets made for theater or TV. There is always some voice from somewhere saying, "Who'd want to see that?" or "It would cost more than it would be worth." Something negative. That is why most motion pictures that are dreamt of never appear on any screen. It's costly and it takes a lot of people working together in order to get anything done. And the money people are the last to be persuaded.

So, that is why I'm amazed that Reiner Werner Fassbinder was able to get a really convoluted novel made into a 2-part show for German television. That it is an art film to boot is astonishing, and that he was rather true to the book is also astonishing. The 1999 film does a good job of cutting off the fat and serving up mostly the protein of the story. But Josef Rusnak had a much larger budget, estimated at 16 million dollars; Fassbinder's estimated budget is DM 950,000. Let's just say that's a hell of a lot less. Rusnak had a shorter time window for his program to play; it runs 100 minutes (Fassbinder had 212 minutes, which was shortened to 205 minutes for the 2-part version). It's interesting to note that Fassbinder's co-writer,Fritz Müller-Scherz, reveals in a documentary on the Criterion discs that they initially thought they'd have only 60 minutes to tell their tale!

As for the different vibes: the 1999 version is very Hollywood. When he was promoting Welt am Draht, Fassbinder said or wrote that Hollywood is focused on emotion, but he would focus his story on the intellectual questions. "Hollywood wants to make you feel, I want to make you think," is a fairly close paraphrase. His story seems less engaged in human issues at times. Oddly, he's the director of the two who goes more for explosions and gunfire. The Rusnak version does what Fassbinder said: goes for the emotions, but it doesn't altogether fail to raise the questions, although in an even less direct way than Fassbinder's version does. And in order to steer the audience toward certain conclusions, characters often state things that the film-makers want you to think: "Those people are as real as you or me!" Douglas Hall says to Jason Whitney, the top tech guy on the project.
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It might be the German language and the German sensibilities vs American English; it might be the European logic vs Hollywood optimism; it might be the 70s versus the 90s, but there is something substantially different between the two productions. A different feel. The Fassbinder script pares out several aspects of the original Daniel F. Galouye novel: the army of reaction monitors sanctioned by law who interrupt everyone's day and to whom you cannot say "No" without paying a fine; the technology of Galouye's future-based story; a plot to consolidate all political power in the US into one party. But the characters and events outside those plot threads remain pretty much intact. Of course the Anglo names are changed to reflect the German production-setting of the story (although it was shot in Paris). In the 205 minutes allotted to tell the tale all the salient plot developments of Galouye's novel make an appearance. Many are truncated, of course. In the novel Doug Hall knew "Jinx" Fuller when she was a teenager. That aspect is dropped from the Fassbinder film. Ultimately, Eva Vollmer is an outsider with a personal mission, just as in the novel, but a cradle-robbing aspect of their relationship that might have been a little squicky even in 1973 is removed.

Rusnak and his co-writer, Ravel Centeno-Rodriguez (funny how each co-writer's last name is hyphenated), had to further streamline the plot. In fact, they have time for the merest essence of what Galouye includes in his 1964 novel. As I wrote in the Review of The Thirteenth Floor, there is no Siskin character pulling strings behind the scenes, and Hannon Fuller is made the head of the Institute. The particulars of Jane Fuller's real identity are mashed around. She supposedly has come in because her father left the corporation to her, but last-minute re-working of his Will put it all into Douglas Hall's hands. This provides a more soap-opera/cop-show iron-clad motivation for the cops to sniff around Hall concerning Fuller's death. The Rusnak remake does manage to pull off a slightly surprising who-dunit ending with these changes, but it's a very mild surprise at best.
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Fassbinder never asks the ethical question about messing with simulations' lives. Perhaps it didn't occur to him or Müller-Scherz. Galouye raises it but doesn't pursue it. Fassbinder was more concerned with whether computer models should be used to determine decisions taken in real life. Should a computer simulation be used to determine long-term public policy vis-a-vis which industries are helped and which ignored by the sitting government? Rusnak was more concerned with whether the people in a simulation are real entities with real human rights or not. Actually, you could take this 1999 point to be symbolic of government vs. ordinary souls trying to live their lives, if you wanted to. But the Rusnak pre-dates September 11 2001, so inclusion of that question in the 1999 film is not a cue to ponder the NSA.

I have to agree with Fassbinder about the aims of Hollywood films! And I have to say that his film, focused as it is on bigger questions, comes across as better-written, intellectually robust but more abstract, and thus, emotionally emptier. I guess I've been too steeped in the Hollywood way for too long. The Fassbinder is not nearly as abstract as Resnais' Marienbad film by any means, but it doesn't seem to have as much concrete supporting it as I am accustomed to. Still, I somewhat prefer the Fassbinder approach with its more adult viewpoint to the Rusnak. After the Rusnak film is finished with making me feel things, it's pretty much over. But I think about the Fassbinder for a longer time afterward!



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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Shieldmaiden » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:58 am

YouTookMyName wrote:2) that Klaus Löwitsch was an action star.
Uh-oh. I don't know if this is true. I meant it stylistically -- that Fassbinder wanted him play the role as if he were Charles Bronson (or whoever was the action star of the moment). This is all just speculation on my part, anyway.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Shieldmaiden » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:06 am

Great essay on the different styles! Thoughts:
YouTookMyName wrote:Fassbinder never asks the ethical question about messing with simulations' lives. Perhaps it didn't occur to him or Müller-Scherz. Galouye raises it but doesn't pursue it.
Interesting (and something I hadn't thought of)! When Fred finds out he's in the simulation, he thinks only, "Nothing matters," not "I'm just as real as my creator." And, yet, there's that beautiful final scene where he makes it to the real world. The ethical issue is sort of lurking in the background there.
YouTookMyName wrote:And I have to say that his film, focused as it is on bigger questions, comes across as better-written, intellectually robust but more abstract, and thus, emotionally emptier.
Yep. It's no surprise I prefer Fassbinder's head to Hollywood's heart. I really enjoyed the way Stiller's existential angst was written. As for emotion, the final scene alone had more impact (on me) than the entire Thirteenth Floor.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:16 am

Shieldmaiden wrote:Great essay on the different styles! Thoughts:Interesting (and something I hadn't thought of)! When Fred finds out he's in the simulation, he thinks only, "Nothing matters," not "I'm just as real as my creator." And, yet, there's that beautiful final scene where he makes it to the real world. The ethical issue is sort of lurking in the background there.

Yep. It's no surprise I prefer Fassbinder's head to Hollywood's heart. I really enjoyed the way Stiller's existential angst was written. As for emotion, the final scene alone had more impact (on me) than the entire Thirteenth Floor.
Do you by any chance hate kid's movies because they are sooo heavily invested in feelings?
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:19 am

Shieldmaiden wrote:Uh-oh. I don't know if this is true. I meant it stylistically -- that Fassbinder wanted him play the role as if he were Charles Bronson (or whoever was the action star of the moment). This is all just speculation on my part, anyway.
Here. You can check and see if you were accidentally right. He played a detective on TV for a long time. That's a hint.

Practically all of all the Rematches have been speculation on my part. :shifty:

Are you going to follow the upcoming Godzilla Multimatch? Or give it a miss?
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Shieldmaiden » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:52 am

YouTookMyName wrote:Do you by any chance hate kid's movies because they are sooo heavily invested in feelings?
I love some kids' movies. The cold and heartless ones. :P
YouTookMyName wrote:Are you going to follow the upcoming Godzilla Multimatch? Or give it a miss?
I'll follow (as in lurk and read), the way I usually do. I'm afraid godzilla isn't quite my style.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:34 am

A Comparison of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)
The Thirteenth Floor (1999) dir. Josef Rusnak
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IMDb link 6.8/10 with 34,931 viewers RT-link tomatometer 27%; 58% with 29,885 viewer votes

Year: 1999 Director: Josef Rusnak -- Cast: Craig Bierko, Armin Mueller-Stahl, Gretchen Mol, Vincent D'Onofrio, Dennis Haysbert -- Length: 100 min. Color/Stereo -- est. budget $16,000,000; box office $11,802,224 US

Seeing this movie in Blu-ray resolution with the original aspect ratio of 2.40:1 somehow made it a lot better film. There is something to be said for the experience of watching a movie, and 4:3 pan and scan cuts off a lot of the framing that Wedigo von Schultzendorff set up. The framing is quite effective, especially in the final shots that show the world of 2024. That year was a quarter century away when the film was released. This review is the result of four viewings of the film in 1999, 2012 and 2013. A film that I didn't care for at all to begin with has grown on me. Remember, I had already seen this film but not World on a Wire when Shieldmaiden recommended these films for a Rematch.

In this telling the simulated world is not set in modern times, instead having been programmed to exist in the 1930s. This helps the viewer identify which world is which, something that Fassbinder's more plot-literal translation of the novel doesn't help you with. The simulation (never called Simulacron) is supposed to be ultra-realistic, and the attention paid to set and costume detail in the simulation pays off.
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Roland Emmerich is a producer on this film, but somehow Rusnak minimizes the Emmerich touches! This is a more thoughtful film than anything else I've seen with the R. E. name attached. In fact, I can't recall anything in the film exploding and there is only a little bit of gunfire. Overall it is a thoughtful production of a script that intends to modernize a thought-provoking story from the 1960s. And for the most part that's what it does. I note below that the dialogue gets a little soapy in places, sometimes for extended stretches. And some of the characters are portrayed with a bit more stage-acting than is necessary. But on the whole I think it succeeds if as nothing more than a diversion with ideas that you might think about once or twice after you see it, and ponder while you wait for your toast to cook. It's more or less like a TV show in 2.40:1 aspect ratio. (Unless you watch the DVD, which is presented in old-timey TV-land 4:3)

Notice that twice as many viewers (by %) like the film compared to professional critics. I get the sense that normal viewers are not as dissatisfied with having things presented in ways they have seen before, as critics seem to be. The clichéd aspects of the film don't seem to hurt the dramatics, only the stylistics. Fassbinder's version is far more thoughtful, yes, and more thought-provoking. But this one is not as terrible as it first seemed to me.

Here are some aspects of the film that I like:

Like: A Galouye fan might criticize Josef Rusnak and Ravel Centeno-Rodriguez for paring the story down too far. They might say that the original story was "gutted" by this screenplay. I would say that in order to meet the 1 hour and 40 minute window, the screen writers left out anything that was not the central horror-mystery tale. Galouye's novel has a lot of other things going on besides the hunt for why Fuller is dead, why Doug Hall has headaches and blackouts, and why people disappear without a trace. There is a world domination angle, and a betrayal angle that don't have to be there for the main "wow" story idea to come through. In fact, in the novel they often get in the way of clearly understanding what is already an obtuse enough idea.
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Like: Craig Bierko as Douglas Hall and Gretchen Mol as Jane Fuller. At first I thought Bierko's handsome but comic-capable face was really ill-fitting. But subsequent viewings have convinced me that there is no reason not to play with the story a little bit, and Bierko's comic faces (which are not exaggerated at all) help us relate to the characters he plays. Ms Mol doesn't do anything funny, but her real-world character Natasha Molinaro is slightly comic just as she is conceived. Mol has only to play her straight in order to elicit a smile or two.

Like: The writers bother to have a character say, "Those people are as real as you or me!" which pulls up the most salient of Galouye's points: that if we created independent simulated humans it would be unethical to simply snuff them out on a whim. This idea gets submerged or omitted from the 1973 adaptation. Perhaps it is included here because in 1999 people seemed to believe that sapient AI was just around the bend.

Like: Armin Mueller-Stahl, who plays Hannon Fuller in the real world, and Grierson in the simulation, is wonderful. I guess he's never been bad in anything I've seen him do on the screen, but he has just the right touch in these roles. I think maybe he saves the picture.


Here are some aspects of the film that I don't care for:
Don't Like: The nemesis to Doug Hall, Ashton, a bartender in the simulation, is kind of heavy-handed. I think Vincent D'Onofrio plays him as Rusnak wanted, but it's a little over-done. It's more TV-show acting than cinema acting, as far as I'm concerned.
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Don't Like: When the letter bearing a revelation of the truth that Dr Fuller means for Douglas Hall falls into bartender Ashton's sneaky hands, the screenplay introduces gun-play and fisticuffs-based discord. I suppose to the writers it makes sense, since this is the post-Prohibition 1930s. But Galouye's story is, for better or worse, from the intellectualized period of science fiction. There is death by guns, but not as much. This is a modern Hollywood fixation, I think. It isn't ruinous, but pushes the writing toward soap-opera.

Don't Like: At times the dialogue becomes like something you'd expect from a soap opera. It's all encoded phrases that carry a culturally-set meaning to the audience, in much the same as the lyrics to country songs do. This creates a bit of tiresomeness that may not be welcome to all. Once in a while it gets used for humor, but mostly it's just to compress the plot. I could do without it, except that it gives me something to pile into this section of my review.

Don't Like: One of the short-hand changes made is to add a cop character who hounds Hall for the suspected murder of Hannon Fuller. In the novel, Siskin (head of Reactions Incorporated) is manipulating the police investigation of Fuller's accident. In this retelling Fuller was the one at the head of the company, there is no Siskin, so it's all at the impetus of the police that Detective Larry McBain shows up and won't leave. It's true that Douglas Hall is eventually charged with Fuller's murder in the novel, so I guess this character acts as an amalgam of all the security and police personnel in the story. It can be taken as that, anyway. I guess there wasn't enough time to have a Siskin-like plotter in this story, but leaving him out simply makes the overall effect more like TV.
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Don't Like: The world at the end is supposed to be "the future," but the buildings all look too new. I'm not sure where this is supposed to be set, but they'd have to tear down a lot of existing buildings to make a skyline like that in a quarter-century span. Now, I have to add a line here since reading Shieldmaiden's essay, and say that maybe this is a clue that we're not done with the story yet. Or, maybe this all just took place in Dubai.


To be honest, this film is not quite as "good" as the 1973 German TV version. But it looks better. It is less difficult to comprehend, or to follow the plot. Yet the Fassbinder adaptation left out just enough stuff when translating the Galouye story to the screen. This one is forced to leave out much more, and in order to have a plot the result must delete characters and story-lines from the proceedings. So, I think this one leaves out somewhat more than should have been. Yet in the time allowed, all those points could not have been covered. By stripping the story down to its bare minimum tropes, this movie creates a different feel. Ultimately, we have to see both in order to judge. I'll leave that part up to you. I watched them both; I reported my findings. Now I challenge you to see for yourself.

On first viewing (in 1999 from VHS) I found this movie to make no sense. Remember that I had the same reaction to the Fassbinder adaptation on first viewing. My initial thoughts about Galouye's novel were along those lines. It takes a while for the story to settle in and begin to make sense. Reading the novel allows for that time. But neither film version is long enough to have that effect (at least in my case) without re-watches. Most people aren't going to give either the 1973 or the 1999 films that much of a chance.



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Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:36 am

Shieldmaiden wrote:I love some kids' movies. The cold and heartless ones. :P
Ha ha! Then The Brave Little Toaster must be your fave kid's flick. ;)
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:48 am

Your friendly neighborhood YTMN may not have the restraint to wait until Saturday to post the final entry in this Quickmatch.

The extraordinarily long Quotes post is all ready to go, and my head is already in daikaiju-land. I sat up late doing the Round Three graphics I'd need to get the Gojira Multimatch underway, and...and...
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:52 am

YouTookMyName wrote:Your friendly neighborhood YTMN may not have the restraint to wait until Saturday
If you go ahead and post it now, you can be sure the Quickmatch is all on page 31. There are only five, er--I mean four posts left on the page right now.

Dooz it. Dooz it!
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:55 am

Image

A Comparison of World on a Wire (1973) & The Thirteenth Floor (1999)
Lines You Might Like

I discovered when putting together the Quotes post for The Postman Always Rings Twice that the double benefit of scripts posted on-line or transcripts of dialogue, and subtitles in English for "foreign" films could be put to use, allowing longer excerpts than the usual line or two that you find on web pages devoted to quotations. I think that technique will work well for these two motion pictures.

Quotations from the novel were hand-typed from the nook edition.
1964 Simulacron-3

She cracked open the dome and a sighing penetration of refreshing wind wafted the cobwebs from my entangled thoughts. But they were thoughts that were still too inchoate to wrestle with imponderables. "Doug?" She questioned my silence as the draft caught a tress of luxurious hair and splayed it against the plexidome.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

It wasn't an illusion. It was real. There was no doubting the validity of the experience, even though it sprang solely from excited hallucination centers. Cortical stimulation was that effective.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

The air limousine cushioned down on a landing shelf outside the one hundred and thirty-third level of the Establishment's Babel Central. Siskin himself was waiting at the entrance to his office.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Then my hands contracted into fists and I slumped forward. I sat there through long minutes, trembling, trying to pull back from the brink of a yawning blackness. The room wavered and faded and a thousand rivers of fire coursed through my head. "Doug? Are you all right?" Jinx's solicitous voice, the touch of her hand on my shoulder brought me swimming back. "It's nothing," I lied. "Just a headache."
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Jinx, you're a material person. I'm just a figment of somebody's imagination. You can't be in love with me!"
She stepped back, apparently hurt. "Oh but I am, Doug! It's so difficult to explain."

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Quotations from Welt am Draht were taken from the srt subtitles files.
1973 World on a Wire

Siskins:
Rainer, two whiskeys: One ice, one water.
Rainer:
Yes, Mr. Siskins.
Siskins:
Coming to the funeral?
Stiller:
I'll be there, although...the dead don't really care, do they?
Rainer:
Your whiskeys.
Siskins:
Thank you.
[to Stiller]Can you debug the computer without Vollmer?
Stiller:
I think so.
Siskins:
We can't afford further delays. The Ministry's impatient. By the way...
Stiller:
What?
Siskins:
Oh, nothing. Tell me, what's your dream car?
Stiller:
Pardon me?
Siskins:
Your dream car. It's a simple question.
Stiller:
Oh, God... A Corvette.
Siskins:
I see, a Corvette...
Stiller:
275 HP.
Siskins:
And about 40,000 marks. Beyond your wage bracket?
Stiller:
Somewhat, but you asked about my dream car, not my wage bracket.
Siskins:
What bracket do you want?
Stiller:
The next one.
Siskins:
Why not, if you're as good as Vollmer?
Stiller:
I'm not, but I'm tough.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Stiller:
Has Vollmer's office been emptied?
Maja:
No. His things are still there.
Stiller:
Cancel my appointments. I'll be in Vollmer's office.
[later, to a woman looking through papers on the desk in Vollmer's office]
What are you doing? [he grabs her wrist]
Eva Vollmer:
You're hurting me. [He lets go] Thank you, Fred Stiller. You are Fred Stiller?
Stiller:
Yes, but what are you doing?
Eva Vollmer:
The guard at the front desk showed me in.
Stiller:
Aren't you?
Eva Vollmer:
I'm Eva Vollmer.
Stiller:
I didn't recognize you.
Eva Vollmer:
Naturally. I'm here because I was asked to pick up Father's things.
Stiller:
I thought you were in Montreux.
Eva Vollmer:
I've been back a month.
Stiller:
You were with your father when...
[Eva nods]
Was he acting strange? Did he seem nervous?
Eva Vollmer:
Not that I noticed. Why?
Stiller:
Because he...I think he had made an important discovery. He couldn't tell me.
Eva Vollmer:
He was a bit preoccupied, no more.
[while Stiller looks at a drawing that he finds in Vollmer's papers]
You know, if you were to visit me...I'd like that, really.
Stiller:
Tell me...Did your dad see much of Günther Lause? Your uncle, Günther Lause.
Eva Vollmer:
Never heard of him.
Stiller:
You don't remember your uncle?
Eva Vollmer:
I remember him very well. His name was Jakob; Jakob Meixner. He died four years ago.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Stiller:
Einstein! Don't be a fool, you've no chance.
Einstein: [in Walfang's body]
I won't go back, I want to live!
Stiller:
Get help! Call Edelkern! Call someone for help.
Cafeteria Lady
You have to speak up, I can't hear you. I'm hard of hearing.
Stiller: [gesturing with his words]
Telephone! Help!
[Einstein makes a break for it. Stiller knocks him out.]
[Stiller calls Edelkern, head of Security]
Stiller:
Edelkern, I'm in the cafeteria. I need help, quick!
Edelkern: [entering the cafeteria]
What's wrong, Fred?
[He sees "Fritz Walfang" in the floor]
What happened?
Stiller:
Take him to a hook-up station, fast. And load the program for 0001. He looks like Fritz Walfang, right? In reality, he's identity unit 0001. Vollmer named him Einstein.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

[Stiller finds himself on a hospital gurney in the middle of a carpeted, curtained room. Eva Vollmer is sitting on the end of the gurney.]
Eva Vollmer:
I switched your mind as you lay dying down there. Like that time Einstein came, instead of Walfang.

[Stiller goes around the room feeling of things. Eva raises the window blinds and he looks out. He laughs and finally walks over to stand facing her.]

Eva Vollmer:
Hair, eyes...mouth, neck, shoulders.

[Stiller picks Eva up and spins around with her. They fall to the floor of the room, laughing. They roll across the carpet, then he flops out on his back]

Stiller:
I am.

I am.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Quotations from The Thirteenth Floor come from the script posted online. Some of it doesn't seem totally accurate.
1999 The Thirteenth Floor

INT. FULLER'S OFFICE -MORNING
DOUGLAS
This was his apartment.
McBAIN
You could be home already.
DOUGLAS
What?
McBAIN
I see these signs every time I leave work - " You could be home
already. Apartment living in downtown." Never expected it could
look anything like this.
DOUGLAS
This company was Fuller's life. He worked and lived here.
McBAIN
So what exactly do your people do here?
DOUGLAS
I don't think you wouldn't be interested.
McBAIN
I'm paid to be interested.
DOUGLAS
Computer research. Fuller was onto a whole new frontier. Very
sensitive material. Not at liberty to discuss it.
McBAIN
A lot of money involved. This apartment must be worth a few
million dollars.
DOUGLAS
One of the perks of the job.
McBAIN
This job has a whole lot of perks.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

JANE
I just talked to him 2 days ago. I can't believe he's gone. My name is Jane Fuller. Hannon was my father.
DOUGLAS
I'm sorry. I'm Douglas Hall.
JANE
You are the one he always wanted me to meet.
DOUGLAS
Really? He never mentioned to me that he had a daughter.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

INT. THE OFFICE
DOUGLAS
How many simulated worlds like this are there?
JANE
Thousands. Yours is the only one that ever created a simulation within the simulation. Something we never expected.
DOUGLAS
So you had to kill Fuller.
JANE
No. I was sent in after his death. I was to pretend to be his daughter, inherit the company. And shut it down. But he tricked us. He changed his will.
DOUGLAS
If you didn't kill Fuller. Who did?
[He realizes what happened.]
I stabbed him.
JANE
But it wasn't you. It was your user. He downloaded into you. Manipulated you.
DOUGLAS
Like a puppet.
JANE
A puppet doesn't have a soul.
DOUGLAS
I can't have a soul any more than Fuller.
JANE
But you do. Fuller did. That's I never expected that. We programmed this world so no one in it could learn the truth. And you and Fuller did. Don't you see what that means?
DOUGLAS
There's just one little flaw in your thesis. None of this is real. You pull the plug. I disappear. And nothing I ever say nothing I ever do will ever matter. Why don't you find my user? I'm sure he's a much better catch.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>




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Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:07 pm

Now you have two days to work on the epub of The Legendary Toby Kiemun, you lazy son of a woman. Don't miss this opportunity! :)
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:09 pm

If our ersatz convo lasts two more posts we'll be to page 32 and I can archive this one! (No one knows I make webarchives of each page.)

I'd love to start Round Three on the next page.
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:09 pm

I don't think I'm going to help you with that. I can see where this is going.
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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