Maiden's Voyage

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Shieldmaiden
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:27 pm

Trip wrote:Wonder if he intended to look as if filmed through beer.
Haha. It does sometimes look like that. Imagine what it looked like before it was restored!
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:14 pm

Does anyone want to talk to me about the relationship between Biberkopf and Reinhold?

Big plot spoilers inside:
Döblin apparently calls it love, and Fassbinder says it’s "a pure, non-sexual love." But what kind of love remains after someone tries to kill you? I realize that victims of abuse go back to their abusers. But that’s after the abuse has taken a horrible toll on their self-esteem, and it’s not really love anymore is it? Maybe it’s a failure of the film that I can’t see any reason for Biberkopf to even like Reinhold, much less trust him again and again. And I say that as someone who has repeatedly gotten hurt by trusting people who turn out not to be trustworthy. But once they betray my trust, it’s gone. I don’t go back for more!

I find it easier to understand in a metaphorical/political sense. Biberkopf, with his passive immaturity, desperation, and misplaced trust, makes a good stand-in for the German people during the rise of Hitler. But I have a very hard time understanding it at a personal level.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Trip » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:38 am

He deludes himself, denying any doubt of the purity of their friendship. I wish I'd just watched it to recall more clearly :\
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:01 am

Trip wrote:He deludes himself, denying any doubt of the purity of their friendship. I wish I'd just watched it to recall more clearly :\
That would make more sense if Reinhold hadn't tried to kill him! I guess I'm getting too hung up on this, but it's so hard to see why Biberkopf was attracted to him in the first place. I guess it made a really big impression on him that Reinhold confided in him.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Derninan » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:05 pm

I would love to talk to you about this. Sadly, I have not seen Berlin.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:11 pm

Derninan wrote:Sadly, I have not seen Berlin.
Aw. That's correctable, you know. It's only 15½ hours, and you'd have my undying love. :D
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Derninan » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:20 pm

Don't I already have that?
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:29 pm

Derninan wrote:Don't I already have that?
You're well on your way. Film discussion is like a direct line to my heart.
But Fassbinder talk is the most stimulating, if you catch my drift.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Derninan » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:16 am

Berlin...Alexanderplatz...with club sauce...
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:48 am

Derninan wrote:Berlin...Alexanderplatz...with club sauce...
Haha!

What's your favorite Fassbinder so far? Have you seen In a Year with 13 Moons? The Third Generation?
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:54 pm

Derninan brings up a good point. I’m craving discussion of Alexanderplatz, but I guess not too many people here have seen this one because of its length.

Dreiser? Hanna Schygulla is sex incarnate in this! But, besides that, what did you love about it?

I can understand why people were upset about the murkiness of the picture when it first aired. It’s still murky, after an extensive overhaul. But I find the complaints about the lack of traditional storytelling less understandable. It’s broken up into discreet episodes, with either closure or cliffhangers. Pretty standard. Unless they’re talking about those awesome bits where the narrator goes off on one track while the pictures are on another. And, as for the immorality, isn’t this a really famous book in Germany? Wouldn’t they have been familiar with the story already, even if they hadn’t read it?

Speaking of which, has anyone here read it? I may try to get ahold of it. I was already interested because of its mentions in 2666. I also have not seen the 1931 movie version. Does anyone recommend that?
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Trip » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:17 pm

I don't recommend the 1932 version, unless you are curious to compare it.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:29 pm

Trip wrote:I don't recommend the 1932 version, unless you are curious to compare it.
Well, I'll probably get to all the special features eventually. I want to read the book first.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by dreiser » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:39 am

"If I say this coffee tastes like dishwater, then it tastes like dishwater!"

Love that Fassbinder and really enjoyed reading your piece on it.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by dreiser » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:14 am

Shieldmaiden wrote:Dreiser? Hanna Schygulla is sex incarnate in this! But, besides that, what did you love about it?
You articulated that it's as if Fassbinder wanted the show to look like it was shot through a beer bottle. Exactly. I thought it was visually amazing and unique.

And just from an educational aspect, pre-WWII Germany is unfamiliar ground for me. The series really focused on the psyches of the Berlin populace, their struggles to find work that wasn't degrading, the barbaric treatment of women, the volatile political environment, and the overall stupor that seemed to hang over a community that would allow Hitler to prosper.

You also hit on the Biberkopf/Reinhold relationship which fascinated me to no end. It's an extreme manifestation of the protagonist's self-loathing nature.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Oaktown » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:21 am

Shieldmaiden wrote:Derninan brings up a good point. I’m craving discussion of Alexanderplatz, but I guess not too many people here have seen this one because of its length.
I have seen it thankfully since it was an incredible film, but I don't feel like I have a good enough grasp on it to really discuss anything about it.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:08 am

dreiser wrote:Love that Fassbinder and really enjoyed reading your piece on it.
Thank you! Though I have to be honest and admit that the beer idea was Trip's. Personally, I think I'd call Reinhold self-loathing and Biberkopf insecure, if that makes any sense. But their whole relationship seems to slip out of my grasp the more I try to understand it. It's absolutely fascinating, though. And I totally agree about the political/economic situation. It's extremely well-drawn and thought provoking.
Oaktown wrote:I have seen it thankfully since it was an incredible film, but I don't feel like I have a good enough grasp on it to really discuss anything about it.
I'm still mulling it over myself. I wonder how many people here have seen it. We need a poll. Something like:

__ I have seen Berlin Alexanderplatz
__ I have not seen Berlin Alexanderplatz
__ I will be seeing Berlin Alexanderplatz as soon as humanly possible so I can stimulate Shieldmaiden through film discussion

:)
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by B-Side » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:12 am

Shieldmaiden wrote:I can stimulate Shieldmaiden
:D
I'm terrible. Sorry. :P
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Epistemophobia » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:17 am

Only who can stimulate Shieldmaiden?
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by B-Side » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:19 am

Epistemophobia wrote:Only who can stimulate Shieldmaiden?
Only me, obviously.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:30 am

I'm going to throw one more thing out there. I've been doing some reading of other people's thoughts on Alexanderplatz and I came across this here:
Fassbinder’s cinematic discourse augments the effect, replaying sounds, images and even entire scenes over and over until the viewer becomes immersed in the cyclical maelstrom that both inhabits and inhibits Franz’s state of mind. Most notable is a particular flashback sequence – depicting Ida’s demise at Franz’s brutish hands – whose increasingly frequent appearances during the narrative’s progression directly correlate with the acts of trauma inflicted upon our protagonist’s regressive psyche. It’s a persistence of memory that exemplifies Franz’s status as a prisoner of his soul, an everlasting reminder of his capacity for brutality. For the viewer however, it provides a sly deconstruction of said brutality: the sequence’s ability to horrify gradually subsides with each recurrence, initiating a process of desensitisation that undermines its intrinsic shock value.
So he and I had completely opposite reactions to the repeated murder scene. So, anyone who's seen it, what did you think? Did the repetition add emotional impact or dull it?
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by dreiser » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:14 pm

Shieldmaiden wrote:So he and I had completely opposite reactions to the repeated murder scene. So, anyone who's seen it, what did you think? Did the repetition add emotional impact or dull it?
If that was Fassbinder's intent, it did not have that effect on me. I just found it irritating and pointless. The scene is a brutally horrific one best left to linger upon the viewer's mind after one pass.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:40 am

I definitely don’t think it was pointless, if only because of the slightly flippant narration the first time we see it. Yes it was horrific to us, but it gave me the impression that Biberkopf didn’t take it as seriously as he should have. For me, it grew in horror and importance every time it was shown. The way the narration was often about something completely different (Abraham & Isaac, the suicidal girl) was sort of baffling at first, but eventually I thought it lent additional weight and resonance.
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Maiden's Voyage: The Savage Detectives

Post by Shieldmaiden » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:44 am

    • Image
  • Like so many Mexicans, I too gave up poetry. Like so many thousands of Mexicans, I too turned my back on poetry. Like so many hundreds of thousands of Mexicans, I too, when the moment came, stopped writing and reading poetry. From then on, my life proceeded along the drabbest course you can imagine.
                • – Amadeo Salvatierra, The Savage Detectives
I may have found the ultimate expression of mournful nostalgia! Roberto Bolano’s The Savage Detectives is a beautiful, darkly funny book about loss and disappointment, a gripping story about poetry that continually breaks my heart.

Ostensibly a mystery of missing manuscripts and disappearing authors, the narrative explodes into a cacophony of loss – lost lovers, lost friends, lost country, lost ideals. The structure is pure nostalgia, a shadowy series of interviews about old friendships and past adventures where every tale is tinged with longing. The setting is an impossible dream Mexico, a literary Utopia where everyone recognizes and cares about good poetry, and which inevitably falls apart, the best poetry unpublished, forever unread. The author’s own lost past is inextricably woven into the text, his lost future adds another mournful layer. And, the deeper we delve into the mysteries – the closer we come to the enigmatic center – the more we realize, with dawning dismay, that the most terrible loss is simply time, that both the searchers and the searched for have squandered their youth and enthusiasm, that a sad middle age is the most mournful nostalgia of all.
More on Bolano here.


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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Epistemophobia » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:45 am

I will never be Bolano.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:55 am

It's humbling, for sure. He's unbelievably good. I'm still high from reading this. (Just finished tonight.)
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Circus Freak » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:59 pm

Your ability to finish reading books humbles me.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:47 pm

Circus Freak wrote:Your ability to finish reading books humbles me.
Ha. This one's a page-turner, though, unlike that monstrosity you're working on. On the other hand, I haven't even started a movie lately.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by JediMoonShyne » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:20 pm

Circus Freak wrote:Your ability to finish reading books humbles me.
"Book" seems something of an understatement, given its hefty unread presence on my shelf.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:32 pm

JediMoonShyne wrote:"Book" seems something of an understatement, given its hefty unread presence on my shelf.
I thought you'd read it! It's big, but it's no 2666. Seriously, it just flew by.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by JediMoonShyne » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:42 pm

Shieldmaiden wrote:I thought you'd read it! It's big, but it's no 2666. Seriously, it just flew by.
Ah, I thought we were discussing 2666.

Carry on. :oops:
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Epistemophobia » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:44 pm

Best "book" ever.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:11 pm

Epistemophobia wrote:Best "book" ever.
Now which one are we talking about? :P
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Trip » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:12 pm

Circus Freak wrote:Your ability to finish reading books humbles me.
:up:
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Epistemophobia » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:16 pm

Shieldmaiden wrote:Now which one are we talking about? :P
2666.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:26 pm

Epistemophobia wrote: 2666.
Ah. That one is magnificent. I admire it to no end. But I love Detectives with all my heart.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:47 pm

Beau (or anyone, of course), do you have any thoughts on the interviewer in Detectives? On the one hand, I don't think it really matters; the effect is so perfect. On the other, the timing is bugging me. The fact that the interviews took place almost contemporaneously (and as early as January 1976) seems strange.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:30 pm

Someday, Beau will post in my thread. Someday…

Still working my way through the Internet offerings on Berlin Alexanderplatz. Due mention are sevenarts's truly excellent behemoth of an essay, starting here, and a short but sweet entry I feel particularly in tune with here.

I've also spent some time with the Doblin book. It's remarkably similar to the film – the motivations are the same, the dialogue word-for-word. But Biberkopf himself feels different in ways I can't explain. And, obviously, the Fassbinder magic is missing. If I'm actually going to read it, I think I need to wait so the movie's not so fresh in my mind.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Epistemophobia » Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:38 pm

Shieldmaiden wrote:Someday, Beau will post in my thread. Someday…
I've been there.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:28 pm

Haha. It hasn't even been three months yet. I'm being impatient.
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Maiden's Voyage: The Conformist

Post by Shieldmaiden » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:54 am

Image

The Conformist may be the most beautiful film I’ve ever seen. The women are lovely separately, and
insanely gorgeous together. It always seems to be dusk in Bertolucci’s Paris – a perfect, glowing blue dusk.
I need to believe that that dance hall is real, that it exists (still) somewhere in Paris, that I could round a
corner and happen on it someday, and stay, and dance all night!

But I have a question that’s been bothering me for months. Why does no one ever talk about the black
comedy of The Conformist? Is it too obvious to mention? People talk about the strangeness, the menacing
tone. But surely the primary tension is between the ominous and the silly, between the slapstick and the
serious. It’s blatant in the huge government offices, like something out of Brazil; in the crazy 'confession'
to the priest; when Marcello gets trapped in the middle of the dance in that euphoric dance hall scene.
It's ridiculous and serious, too.

Image

But the tension is truly uncomfortable at the party of the blind; when Marcello and Guilia act out
her molestation story; when his mother's chauffeur disappears. The themes are darkly comic, too, as he
searches for "normality,” and rushes toward the anticlimax in the woods. The more I think about it, the
more I’m reminded of The Cremator, and not just because of the Nazi humor; they’re both stylish
nightmare visions of insanity and awkwardness, with intensely horrific climaxes.

And, hey, check out the postcard in the window:

Image
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Maiden's Voyage: The Little Friend

Post by Shieldmaiden » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:54 am

  • Image
        • The slenderest knowledge that may be obtained of the highest things is more desirable than the most certain knowledge obtained of lesser things.
          ————————————————— Thomas Aquinas
Since it looks like I’m going to be writing about books on here as well, I have another one to get out of my system.

Donna Tartt’s The Little Friend is one of the most misunderstood books I’ve ever come across. Most of critics recognized the quality of the writing – the lyrical prologue, the rich atmosphere, the terrifying chases. She really is a good writer, and I admire her most not for the autobiographical voice of her ruthless young narrator, as good as it is, but for the skill and empathy she brings to the drug-addled villains, who seem, if not sane, at least understandable and human in a way that reminded me of Flannery O’Connor.

But what the critics failed to see is what kind of book they were reading, and in this the publishers were as much at fault as anyone, for playing up the idea of a mystery novel, a ‘Nancy Drew for adults.’ Calling it a mystery, or even a thriller, sets the reader up for disappointment; it’s sabotage! This is a coming-of-age novel, and though there are questions at its core, they’re the kind of questions we don’t get easy answers to, the kind we grapple with our whole, inconclusive lives.

I admit that, at first, the ending left me feeling empty, too. I’d been told to expect a mystery. I wanted a solution! Then I noticed the epigraph, the Thomas Aquinas quote above. And, once I’d realized my mistake, the ending opened up in a wonderful way. Tartt writes near the end, “She’d learned things she never knew, things she had no idea of knowing, and yet in a strange way it was the hidden message of Captain Scott: that victory and collapse were sometimes the same thing.” Her young heroine fails at everything she attempts, but confronts instead the mystery of good and evil, guilt and grace. So, it turns out there’s more to the comparison I noted above than I'd realized. It’s not only Tartt’s Southern Gothic sensibilities and complex villains that are O’Connor-like, but her moral, and even theological, preoccupations as well.

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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Epistemophobia » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:14 am

Feels like I should re-watch The Conformist.

What other Bertolucci have you seen?
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Shieldmaiden
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:22 am

Epistemophobia wrote:What other Bertolucci have you seen?
Last Tango in Paris, which I kind of loved. It made me think of La Femme Publique in many ways.
The Last Emperor, which I liked a lot.
Stealing Beauty, which was just OK until the end, and then I forgave it everything.
The Dreamers
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Epistemophobia
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Epistemophobia » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:24 am

Shieldmaiden wrote:Last Tango in Paris, which I kind of loved. It made me think of La Femme Publique in many ways.
Interesting.

Bertolucci is mostly a middling director for me. He knows the ingredients but not the magic touch.
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Shieldmaiden » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:38 am

Epistemophobia wrote:Interesting.
I guess it's mostly in superficial ways -- visual elements, and the director/actress dynamic, for example. But there's enough to make me think Zulawski might have been quoting a favorite.
Bertolucci is mostly a middling director for me. He knows the ingredients but not the magic touch.
Trip says Besieged is pretty great, but I don't have access. Have you seen it?
Lazzaro felice - Cabin in the Sky - An Autumn Afternoon

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Epistemophobia
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Epistemophobia » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:39 am

I didn't care for it.
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Trip
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Trip » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:40 am

stoooops
Please TRIP and Die
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by Fist » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:43 pm

Tried watching The Conformist once. Found it terribly boring... even visually. Probably owe it a revisit though.
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In a word, I think that, far from favoring directors’ formal inventiveness, widescreen, instead, stifles it. It is, I’m more and more persuaded, if not the only, at least the main culprit for the expressive poverty of the image today. - Eric Rohmer
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Re: Maiden's Voyage

Post by MrCarmady » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:50 pm

Magic Fister wrote:Tried watching The Conformist once. Found it terribly boring... even visually. Probably owe it a revisit though.
:-/
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