YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:33 pm

A Comparison of The Fly (1958) and The Fly (1986)

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1958: Mystery -- 1986: Procedural

"Mystery vs Procedural?" you may ask. To me, a mystery style keeps certain information from the audience until it is discovered by some cast member. There is a quest on the part of the characters in the story to discover what's going on. That can be either "Who done it?" or "What was done?" but we don't know because the cast doesn't know. Similarly, if we as the audience are "in on it" from the start, but the characters aren't, then it's a procedural to my mind, a "How did they do it?" story. There may be suspense or surprise in either of these forms. As the title above shows, I think the 1958 film is cloaked in mystery, while the Cronenberg number lets us in on a lot from the start, and we watch Seth and Veronica catch up to us as they figure things out. At that point it becomes a meta-mystery as we all try to figure out what else is going on and how far it will go. By contrast, even after we discover what went on in the 1958 film, we are still wondering "how far did it go?" It's all been done by that time, but we haven't seen it.

George Langelaan wrote what is basically a mystery story, a horror story, and a sci-fi tale. When the story was first transformed into a movie for the 1958 release, the adaptation took the form of a mystery. The 1986 redress of the tale, departing from the original story in most aspects, turns into a procedural story. This is what is done, this is what results. Any mystery is subservient to the Pogue-Cronenberg procedural story. In fact, in 1958 we aren't told (although who doesn't know it by this time?) that a fly has gotten into the disintegrator with André until he types a message to Helene to offer her an explanation. And he doesn't write her that explanation until she accidentally sees the claw that resides in his left coat sleeve. Even at that moment, when she is told, both she and we remain unaware of what is beneath the velvet cloak André keeps over his head.
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Cronenberg's approach is to reveal: the camera trucks around to the window of the telepod inside which Seth has just crouched down for a short ride across his laboratory. The camera shows us a fly clinging to the inside of a porthole. So that we don't miss it, the shot cuts to an extreme closeup of the fly. "This is how it happened." What is a mystery to Seth and Veronica is fully known to us. This creates suspense, according to Hitchcock's rules, because we don't know what is going to happen, or when...but we know that something will, and that the fly we just saw will figure into it. In the 1958 film we as the audience are totally in the dark. Although, I can't imagine that anyone went to the theater even in 1958 without having heard about the fly in the ointment. After all, it's in the title.

I'll possibly touch on this distinction in another of the essays in this Rematch, but I think it's important to note that Neumann's film is not exactly a horror story. It's 1950s science fiction with a touch of horror. Langelaan's short story doesn't really evoke horror except that Helene describes something as "horrific." I ran across a reference to David Cronenberg as "the king of venereal horror," which is more commonly called "body horror," and he makes great use of his hobby in this film. None of us wants to fall apart physically or mentally. We watch as Seth's fingernails sluice away. His skin develops lesions and then warps before our eyes (and his) in an uncomfortable way. Because Cronenberg seeks to be inside Seth's mind during this process to the extent that you can in the externalized world of cinema, we find identification with Seth's plight a little too easy. Cronenberg plays upon the horror any young man or woman feels when observing the appearance of an elderly person. "Oh God, will I look like that some day? No! Never. I'd rather die first!" It's a horrible thought.

But the body horror to the young probably comes not so much from the fact of round middles and wrinkly skin as it comes from the idea of change. Change that cannot be stopped, even with great expense. Change that cannot be predicted, because there is so much biological variation within our species that we never know whether we will be one to keep all the hair, or one to lose it (on the noggin); or whether we will be one of those misfortunates who grows excessive hair in places where no hair belongs. It's a crapshoot that both males and females face. We wind up like Seth Brundle after a fashion if we live long enough, looking like something merged with the DNA of another species. These are changes that we cannot control. And that's the real horror: loss of control of the person's body. (For a contrasting example, exercising to lose weight, or lifting weights to provide bulkier musculature produces change that is largely under the control of the exerciser.)

André Delambre goes through one massive change, and his entire goal is to undo it. If only he could find the fly with the white head he could go through the disintegrator-integrator journey once more, and he's sure things would be set right.
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But, Seth Brundle goes through a transformation, with an infinite number of steps in a mathematical sense, none of which is predictable as to content, but none of which can be staved off by anything short of death. We eventually learn that the fly DNA has merged with his DNA at the molecular level; it is no longer discrete somewhere as a fly part! By allowing Seth Brundle to have a voice right up until he loses his mouth, Cronenberg achieves the near-impossible cinematic task of letting us get inside the mind of a character. He does this by making Brundle a mutterer. The guy is always describing what's going on, even if it's simply by rambling in a way that lets us know the dude is quite confused about what is going on. By contrast, André Delambre is robbed of his voice. He cannot speak, only type to his distraught and puzzled wife, the love of his life, who wants to help. Yet she overestimates her ability to deal with what is under the hood.

In both movies the ultimate horror comes not from what we see, or are told, but from what we imagine as we watch: that I could be be merged with a fly, or it could be my loved one. What would we do? we wonder. And we are struck by the most classic horror of all: fear of the unknown.



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Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by dreiser » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:27 am

That's an enjoyable compare/contrast piece, YTMN.
"I hate the dark, the sharks liars. And the stems of cherry..."

Like Someone in Love (Kiarostami, 2012) 4/10
Killing Them Softly (Dominik, 2012) 2/10
The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm (Pal/Levin, 1962) 6/10
The Dark Past (Mate', 1948) 7/10
New Rose Hotel (Ferrara, 1998) 3/10
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:44 am

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A Comparison of The Fly (1958) and The Fly (1986)
The Writers
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Kurt Neumann's film was based on a George Langelaan story as adapted into a screenplay by Australian-born novelist James Clavell. It was Clavell's first screen writing job, but he would go on to increased fame by penning the shooting scripts for King Rat (based on his first novel), for both writing and directing To Sir with Love, and writing the TV miniseries Shogun which he adapted from his novel. King Rat was based in part on Clavell's experiences as a WWII prisoner of war. Clavell won four awards, including the 1959 Hugo Award for Best Dramatic Presentation for The Fly. Clavell is known for writing, directing, and producing filmed entertainment during his career.


As many of you know, David Cronenberg is a screenwriter, so he often has a hand in the screenplays that he produces for the screen. For The Fly he co-wrote with Charles Edward Pogue. Between 1983 and 2005 Pogue received writing credits on ten titles.
Among them are Kull the Conqueror which was intended to be a Conan sequel, but Schwarzenegger refused to appear, so the main character was renamed. Pogue wrote the Psycho III script, and authored both story and screenplay for Dragonheart. Pogue is best known for whimsy and comedy, which he no doubt contributed to Cronenberg's bizarre vision of Seth Brundle's transformation into a fly-man hybrid. Cronenberg is best known as a director, but he has screen writing credits as far back as 1969 for feature films. He has been directing his own scripts since 1979. His cock-eyed view of life and things that go bump in the night are well-known. Even though he is often gross-out friendly, his commentary on human life almost always redeems his films from what would otherwise be nothing but excess. In his hands as both writer and director the outrageous seems approachable.


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Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:39 pm

A Comparison of The Fly (1958) and The Fly (1986)

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Halloween Costumes

Tonight there are children dressed up as ghouls, goblins, vampires, princesses, dragons, the mummy, werewolves, ghosts, Captain America, Batman, Catwoman. Their costumes are store-bought or homemade. There are adults at parties where they are dressed as anything you might imagine (I once attended a Halloween party as A Yard Sale, which no one guessed). And where does the inspiration for these costumes come from for modern children and grown-ups? Could it be the movies?
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Do you reckon the stunt actors and stars who get to play the monster get the same sorts of thrills that kids get when decking out in their costumes to go begging candy from the neighbors? Or does a daily three-hour stint in the makeup chair take the fun out of it?

Al Hedison needed only a fly hand and a fly head for his makeup. These obviously fit over his own hand and head, so the time in makeup wasn't too terribly long. It probably takes longer to attach these things than I think (almost everything in film and video production takes longer than I think, and I did it for 20 years), but less time than it did to fix up Jeff Goldblum in his various Brundlefly stages.
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I'll let the anonymous writers at Wikipedia supply the details here for Jeff Goldblum's makeup:
Someone at Wikipedia wrote:Makeup/creature effects
The Academy Award-winning makeup was designed and executed by Chris Walas, Inc. over a period of several months. The final "Brundlefly" creature was designed first, and then the various steps needed to carry protagonist Seth Brundle to that final incarnation were designed afterwards. The transformation was intended to be a metaphor for the aging process. Indeed, Brundle loses hair, teeth and fingernails, and his skin becomes discolored and lumpy. The intention of the filmmakers was to give Brundle a bruised, cancerous and diseased look that gets progressively worse as time goes on.

Various looks were tested for the different stages before the perfected versions seen in the completed film were arrived at. Some early test footage can be seen on the 2005 The Fly: Collector's Edition DVD, as well as the Blu-ray release.

The transformation was broken up into seven distinct stages, with Jeff Goldblum spending many hours in the makeup chair for Brundle's later incarnations[9]
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STAGES 1-2: Subtle, rash-like skin discoloration, which leads to facial lesions and sores, with tiny fly hairs dotting Goldblum's face, as well as the patch of fly hairs growing out of the wound on Brundle's back.

STAGES 3 and 4-A: Piecemeal prosthetics covering Goldblum's face (and later his arms, feet, and torso), wigs with bald spots and crooked, prosthetic teeth (beginning with Stage 4-A).

STAGE 4-B: Deleted from the film, this variant of Stage 4 was seen only in the "monkey-cat" scene, and required Goldblum to wear the first of two full-body foam latex suits.

STAGE 5: The second full-body suit, with more exaggerated deformities, and which also required Goldblum to wear distorting contact lenses that made one eye look larger than the other.

STAGE 6: The final "Brundlefly" creature, depicted by various partial and full-body cable- and rod-controlled puppets.

STAGE 7: Another puppet that represented the mortally-injured Brundlepod fusion creature seen in the film's final moments.

The design of Brundle's Telepods was inspired by the engine cylinder of Cronenberg's Ducati 450 Desmo.[10]
Graphic from WikiMedia Commons
It might have been The Exorcist that broke the long-standing cinematic tradition of suggestion rather than revelation for monster effects. Or you might say that revelation started with Frankenstein, and I couldn't argue against it. Between the time of The Fly and The Fly it became possible to show body transformations in more convincing detail. In 1958 we see the fly-man only after the fact. Hedison sports a couple of prostheses (probably wearing the fly head only for the scenes where it is first revealed or can be seen). Most of the time the left hand is in his trenchcoat pocket, and there is a square of brown velvet covering his head.

As detailed above, Goldblum wore all sorts of makeup appliances to play Brundle. The makeup team won an Oscar for their work on this film. The transformation from man to fly-man was handled in often subtle ways. Everything was revealed in due time. Even Cronenberg didn't like the rubber suit effects necessary in the day to show Seth's full-body transformations. But it was all they had in 1986. The last two incarnations of Seth Brundle are puppets, as noted above. They look fake, but everything possible is done with editing and slime to make them look realistic. And they have a sort of charm to them that a CGI monster would not. These days composites can be (although they aren't always) virtually seamless. Ten years from now we may be able to spot the seams, but for now they appear seamless. Yet, it would take away something from Cronenberg's movie, I think, if the brundlefly moved perfectly smoothly. In part this jerky effect is subverted because the fly-man isn't expected to move fluidly like a human being, but with the herks and jerks of a fly!

It might be an excellent Halloween costume if you could pull it off (or put it on). But it would be a monster of a job to create. Thank goodness someone had the budget and time to do this for the movie. What hideous things we have to delight in! And some people take the time to replicate them to provide laughs and chills for those around them on Halloween.
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Costume and production images from all over the 'Net.

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Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:57 pm

A Comparison of The Fly (1958) and The Fly (1986)

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André vs. Seth

André Delambre takes more than one trip from disintegrator to integrator, but his purpose is to try to undo what has been done to him. Seth Brundle begins to take this ride on a regular basis, as if he has become addicted to it. He gets a sense of enhanced mental acuity, and sexual power, as well as the thrill of doing something that no other human being has done. I wonder if he persuaded any of his lady friends to take the ride. But there could be an interesting plot implication as well: Perhaps each trip further inculcates the fly DNA into his formerly human genome. Perhaps all those trips through dis- and re-integration propel the horrible changes to his body and mind! Cronenberg and Pogue don't explain this, but I wonder if the question was on their minds as they wrote, and as Cronenberg shot and edited the film.

As someone points out in one of the DVD commentaries, neither André Delambre nor Seth Brundle is a mad scientist. They are both technically very competent, intellectually brilliant, and highly curious individuals. They are trying to answer questions that will benefit humankind. True to the cultural expectations of the 1950s, Delambre is a solid family man, except that he spends far too much time sequestered in his laboratory during the time-frame of the film. True to the expectations of the 1980s, Seth Brundle is a swinger...after the transformation begins, at least. But he is nonetheless devoted to his partner, Veronica.
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We do not see André lose his cool. We don't see him doing anything unruly, except to destroy his equipment once he is convinced that the fly brain is taking over. He does this to prohibit anyone from reproducing his devices. He burns all his important and critical notes. He wants to finish this once and for all. His intellect and morals remain intact and in control to the end. We have nothing but one scene to depict for us the experiences of the human arm and head that have been reassembled on the fly-body. One wonders why the tiny André head doesn't simply steer the fly back to the laboratory. Surely he knows the way. He could even allow himself to be captured. Instead, he flies away more than once. Why? It's one of the countless plotholes in the 1958 film. Apparently, Lagelaan thought the fly brain would take over in both cases. If that were true, then the fl-André would attempt to escape just as a whole fly would, while the man with the fly-head (Andr-y?) would attempt to...wait, there is no logic to any of this.
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We see Seth go over the edge, slowly but surely. Yet through all of his transformation, through his rambling about having always been an insect experiencing a time as a man and what not, he wants to survive. His human DNA is compelling him toward survival as a human being. In the end he wants to merge with Ronnie (how romantic-tech?) which would have been an abortion in a sense. And even that ultimate dual self-sacrifice might not have changed anything. I'm not sure whether the argument is being made by the film that we cannot overcome our genetic imperatives. I don't think Cronenberg intended this. But it is easy to place a reading onto the film because it is so tightly written. It is not written in away that prevents speculation, on the contrary, it invites all kinds of speculation. And viewers in 1986 often saw a parallel, that Cronenberg and Pogue never intended, to the AIDS epidemic. After I wrote the essay in which I speculated that fear of aging might be one terror that the young face when viewing the film, I read that aging is one of the ideas that Cronenberg had in mind as a parallel to the action of the film. Another of his contemplated parallels is being taken over by cocaine use, or by some disease process that is irreversible (so the AIDS inferences are both contemporary and reasonable).

André and Seth are, in a sense, each men of their times. André is strong and speaks little. Seth is vivacious (a term which is inexplicably usually reserved for women) and curious. He is no less strong than his 1958 counterpart, but he is less "level-headed," so his endeavor comes across as nutty, while André's quest seems more solid. So what? Both end in disaster. Both characters are fictional commentaries on how we cannot see everything, cannot truly plan for every contingency, aren't even fully aware of what is happening at any moment. Yet each character is certain that he is on the right path. Also, both films make an unspoken observation that it is the little unseen things, the smallest of unknown unknowns that can totally derail our pet projects.
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In another sign of the times, André's transmission excursions are always undertaken while wearing his suit (and later, the velvet head-covering) whereas Seth strips to the skin to do his cross-lab teleportations. If a fly in the booth with André can get parts jumbled up with him, how do his clothes come out still assembled? Another plot hole. Similar mysteries arise with the 1986 film, simply because the idea of teleportation on Star Trek or in The Fly raises questions of what kind of technical circuitry could assign positions to the molecules of certain objects? In other words, why doesn't everything come out messed up like the first baboon in Seth's telepods? And I've always wondered where the vat of molecules to be assembled into material at the other end is located. We've seen what happens when you convert matter into energy (nuclear weapons) so teleportation might be an explosive development. But it's fun sci-fi.

Both characters persevere, yet both finally realize what their experimentation has wrought.
When André realizes that all is lost, he decides to commit suicide, although it must be assisted suicide. Seth, on the other hand, seems blind to his failure right up until he is merged successfully with the telepod. He understands in that moment that there is no further correction possible to any of this. He places a shotgun to his head, a shotgun which Ronnie eventually uses on him. It takes her a moment to realize that all is lost, as well. She cannot agree to assist in Seth's suicide until it dawns on her that the man she fell in love with isn't there anymore. That she won't be killing a man, but a grotesque thing. And she unloads the shotgun into what remains of his head. It's sad, and it's also a lie. Seth Brundle is still in there, somewhere. In the 1958 story and film the fly brain is what takes over. In the 1986 successor, it is the fly DNA, the material and spiritual remnants of the fly. Helene kills her husband, fully aware that he wants it that way due to circumstances. Ronnie kills Seth because of similar reasoning, but she is given a moment to consider the next step, and its implications for her life. Helen must make the same decision, but we don't get to "see" her do so.
In one sense, the films serve as commentaries on the social position of women at the time each was made. André's woman and Seth's woman face the perplexities of their respective situations under the guidance of a different set of principles.

Seth and André are interesting individuals because they are interesting characters, created by curious writers who recognize good story-telling when they see it (and when they do it). Like many of the best characters in fiction these two men are similar enough to all readers and viewers that they raise questions, and stimulate thought and speculation. This speculation begins with squick, perhaps, but can lead a person to contemplate his/her own circumstances and delusions of power and competence...perhaps leading each of us to make some creative and productive life decisions. Exercise more, play God less, for example.
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Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:46 am

There are four posts for The Fly left to do. I'm getting the Rematch for Peter Pan underway ten days earlier than I had planned.

I have a nice surprise for all of you that I'll disclose in a couple of days. The gist of it is that we'll likely have a guest essayist for The Fly Rematch. :fresh:

Some of you have actually expressed interest in the upcoming Remake Multimatch between three versions of flicks based on JM Barrie's famous character Peter Pan.

I'm putting up the Find-it technical post tonight. I've worked on it for about the past 12 hours, getting links and images. I was intending this to be working ahead, and this would be posted on the 14th. But I decided to give y'all even more time to find copies of these films to watch, if you want to.

I keep thinking that one of these Rematches sometime will spur not only a lot of lurker reading, but will also incite people to make comments. Maybe that will never happen. But Pan could be the instigator.

If you make it to the bottom of the very long post before I get the Initial Post for the Rematch put together and posted, you'll see that one of the url links is still missing for a return image. That will eventually be fixed, of course, but right now there is no post to send anybody to from the end!

Okay. I've been composing, tweaking and proof-reading all day. Let's see what I still didn't manage to catch...
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:46 am

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A Comparison of Peter Pan (1924), Walt Disney's Peter Pan (1953) & Peter Pan (2003)
See Peter Pan Fly!

The Source Story Image

I got the text of James M. Barrie's novel as an ePub book at projectgutenberg.org. You can find the original play, "Peter Pan or The Boy Who Would Not Grow Up" as an html file from Gutenberg Australia. The play was first performed in 1904, and should be considered the original story. But Barrie enlarged the story and published Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens in 1911. The novel is no longer under copyright, but the play is, in Britain and the USA (so I have read). I located "Peter Pan and Wendy" as a pdf file. It is adapted from Barrie's play by Doug Rand, but the pdf is only a sample. They want you to buy the full version, of course. I also located a perusal script for a musical play "Peter Pan" by David Barrett which is apparently more recent, still. Both are subject to performance licenses in the UK and US. Just in case you're planning to mount a stage production.

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Print editions of the book and play are available. I read my free Project Gutenberg copy on a nook tablet. They have kindle format files, needed if you have a kindle. Because it's an electronic book I'll be able to easily quote from the novel for this Rematch, without having to retype the text! The epub versions are much less expensive, and just as easy to read. One of the planned essays (the topics might change as I do the Rematch) is to compare the plays and novel to some of the films.



The 1924 Film Peter Pan Image

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For those of us who prefer HD, sadness reigns for the moment, because there is no Blu-ray issue of the 1924 film available.

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You can get the KINO restoration of the 1924 silent film version, which includes a new orchestral score by Philip C. Carli, on DVD from the Kino Lorber website. From Amazon. From the Barnes & Noble website. From Deep Discount.

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No one has posted the entire 1924 film at YouTube (a surprise to me), but there are some interesting clips. Conveniently located behind a spoiler tag.

A clip 4 minutes 44 seconds long from the opening scene.


"Peter Pan 1924 Silent Movie @ Tampa Theatre"
This is a portion of the 1924 silent movie of peter pan,at the historical tampa theatre movie palace in tampa florida,the music you hear is being played live on a wurlitzer theater organ at the lower left of the screen.
It's interesting to hear the audience reaction to this 8 minute excerpt from the film.


"Stewart Stern on 'Peter Pan' - Part I"
Screenwriter Stewart Stern ("Rebel Without a Cause," "Rachel, Rachel") discusses the 1924 film version of "Peter Pan" before an audience of children and adults at the Paramount Theatre in Charlottesville, Virginia. Stern reminisces about Elsa Lanchester, Betty Bronson, and Eva Le Gallienne at this event, sponsored by the Virginia Film Festival. He is introduced by silent-film singer and musician Joanna Seaton. (Part 1 of 2 parts)

"Stewart Stern on 'Peter Pan' - Part II"


"INSTANTES: Peter Pan (1924, Herbert Brenon)" A clip a bit over a minute long, showing the mermaid scene.
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Music from Peter Pan 1924

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"Selections From the 1924 Silent Film Peter Pan" on CD are available from Amazon.com. I have found no other source.

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"Selections From the 1924 Silent Film Peter Pan" are also available as mp3s from Amazon.com



The 1953 Film Walt Disney's Peter Pan Image

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Disney has not released a Blu-ray disc of their 1953 animated Peter Pan film. But they plan one for 5 Feb 2013. The Diamond Edition combo pack with Blu-ray, DVD and digital copy is available for pre-order at Amazon.

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If you're happy with DVD quality, there is a Two-Disc Platinum Edition at Amazon.com. And at Barnes & Noble.

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Netflix has the DVD only, for now. If you have Netflix, add the movie to your queue here.


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The spoiler tag hides clips from YouTube that feature the 1953 Disney film of Peter Pan. See them while they are still available!

"Walt Disney's 'Peter Pan' (1953) Part-1" Nearly always, a clip title of this sort means you can find the other parts if you look for them. You can click on the link to the poster's home page and find the rest of the clips listed there! The link to the next segment is often on the right edge of the page you're watching.


"The Peter Pan Story - Part 1"
Here is a short film created by Walt Disney which explains the history of storytelling and the creation of the animated Peter Pan movie.

"The Peter Pan Story - Part 2"
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Music from Walt Disney's Peter Pan

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You can get the music from the 1953 film on a CD from amazon.

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iTunes has the 1953 soundtrack ready for downloading. Click here if you pay in Euros!

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The tracks from the 1953 film are available as mp3 downloads individually or as an album at Amazon.



The 2003 Film Peter Pan Image

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For those of us who prefer HD, a Blu-ray issue is available! Read a review at bluray.com. Buy it at Amazon.com. From Newegg.com. From Movies Unlimited. From Overstock.com.

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If you're happy with DVD quality,
Widescreen DVD at Amazon.com. From Newegg.com. From Movies Unlimited. From Deep Discount.

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The 2003 film is available from iTunes.

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Don't want to buy it? Amazon offers this movie for rental on its Instant Video feature.

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Netflix has the DVD only, for now. If you have Netflix, add the movie to your queue here.


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YouTube users have posted a number of clips, some of which may remain there for a while.

"Peter Pan Part 1" -- The rest of the parts are somewhere on YouTube.


The musical tracks are all posted. Here's the first one of the set to get you started.
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Music from the 2003 production of Peter Pan

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You can find the 2003 CD in a few places.
Amazon.com CD. From CD Universe. From Barnes & Noble. From Artist Direct.

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The 2003 soundtrack is available from iTunes.

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The tracks from the 2003 film are available as mp3 downloads individually or as an album at Amazon.


The Extras: other adaptations and written works

There are some other productions and even a book or two based on Barrie's "Peter Pan" that will figure in my essays. In case you'd like to read or watch them:

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"Peter Pan" Mary Martin (TV 1960) at Amazon.com: on DVD. This is an out-of-print item, and quite expensive. You can buy a VHS tape if you wish. Remember, it's 1960 TV quality, although in color. Someone posted the entire 1960 television program at YouTube. (At Netflix. Netflix link provided for a later time. Not available at time of posting. Although you can save to your DVD queue.) Audio CD at Amazon. This is a musical play of the JM Barrie story. Mary Martin plays Peter Pan. Cyril Ritchard (Wendy's father) plays Captain Hook. A few of the songs are famous. The dog and crocodile are a man in a suit. It is a television adaptation of the Barrie stage play with songs tossed in for good measure.

"Peter Pan" Cathy Rigby (TV 2000) at Amazon.com: Amazon Watch Instantly. on DVD. (At Netflix. Netflix link provided for a later time. Not available at time of posting. Although you can save to your DVD queue.) For now the program has been posted to YouTube. Here's a link to "Cathy Rigby is Peter Pan- Part 1". This is a modernized (2000) musical play based on Barrie's play and the 1960 television show. I've read that the songs are different from the 1960 version.

The Barrie novel has some darkness in it. For example, a grown man is trying to kill a little boy! There are other, darker versions of the story.

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"Neverland" (TV 2011) at Amazon.com on DVD and on Blu-ray. At Netflix this one is available as DVD discs, or streaming on Netflix Instant. There are clips on YouTube but they are abysmal, or won't play. This is a speculative story of how the Barrie tale came to be. An origin tale, with much of the magic robbed from it (allegedly) by changing names and terms. "Mineral dust" makes Peter fly, for example. It ends with Curly blurting, "Peter, where's your shadow?" The special effects are good, and the actors playing Jimmy Hook and Peter do a pretty decent job.

Hook (1991) at Amazon.com: on DVD and on Blu-ray + DVD. At Netflix. For as long as it lasts, here's "Hook Part 1" at YouTube. Another more brazen poster put up the entire film at YouTube (which is probably even more likely to disappear). In this sequel, Peter is an adult in the regular world, and Hook kidnaps his children, taking them to Neverland to draw Pan back. The ploy is successful. Peter Pan returns to Neverland as a grown-up to rescue them.

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Neverland (2003) at Amazon.com: on DVD. At Netflix. A dark telling of the Peter Pan story, where Neverland is a real-world amusement park named "Neverland." Wendy and Peter are older teens, and they are in mortal danger from Captain Hook.

Finding Neverland (2004) at Amazon.com: on DVD and on Blu-ray. Blu-ray at CD Universe, or DVD. At Netflix. If you want the soundtrack: CD Universe.com has it. Amazon has it as CD or as mp3 downloads. This film tells a fictional tale of how the story of Peter Pan came to James Barrie, and how it became the famous play we all know.

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The Child Thief by BROM
I ran across this novel, a rather dark adaptation of Barrie's idea. This Peter doesn't fly, but he's swift with a beheading sword. It's sword and sorcery couched in terms of Neverland, but it's called Avalon. Several ideas join in a mashup by novelist, illustrator Brom, whose Avalon is a dark and treacherous place. Peter steals children from New York City to feed them to the Flesh-Eaters who have brought a scourge upon Avalon. You can buy the paperback at B&N or Amazon. And the book is available for nook or kindle.



Do You Like Movie Posters?
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There are websites with images of movie posters, but also sites where you can buy posters for your decor.
Posters for the 1953 movie at MoviePosterDatabase. Posters for the 2003 film at MoviePosterDatabase.
MoviePosterWarehouse. 1953 posters and items at Art.com. A small gallery of 1924 posters at Art.com.
You could even do your own search for Peter Pan posters!

Okay, it's Begun. Think Happy Thoughts.
I'll be reading and watching a lot to get ready for this Rematch. I hope several of you can join me this time! I know a number of you have seen the Disney and PJ Hogan versions of the films. A lot of you have seen Hook. And I'll wager I'm not the only one who has seen the 2011 TV mini-series, "Neverland."
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Please read and watch with me as I get ready, and as I compare the three major entries and the lesser entries for this 2-month-long Holiday 2012 Remake Rematch.


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What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Quite-Gone Genie » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:01 am

Is the Neverland miniseries any good? I guess we'll find out, but it aired on Syfy, which isn't exactly a bastion of quality television.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:04 am

well, i just discovered that i have the blinkin' thing all built! i thought i'd need to build graphics, but nope. the initial post for peter pan is ready to go, all I have to do is adjust the date on the banner image for a couple pages back.

typing in lower case was fun, but difficult.
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:08 am

Quite-Gone Genie wrote:Is the Neverland miniseries any good? I guess we'll find out, but it aired on Syfy, which isn't exactly a bastion of quality television.
This is a good start on answering your question. ;) What we'll find out is whether I thought it was rotten.

Or maybe we'll find out whether you think it's rotten! If you get a chance before this Multimatch closes down in January 2013.
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:09 am

This is the initial post for The Rematch between Peter Pan (1924) Peter Pan (1953) and Peter Pan (2003)
This Multimatch is complete as of 15 January 2013.
It ran 3 November 2012 to 15 Jan 2013
Selected by Gort
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Essays for Peter Pan Multimatch
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by dreiser » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:15 am

YouTookMyName wrote:I have a nice surprise for all of you that I'll disclose in a couple of days. The gist of it is that we'll likely have a guest essayist for The Fly Rematch. :fresh:
<3 surprises.
"I hate the dark, the sharks liars. And the stems of cherry..."

Like Someone in Love (Kiarostami, 2012) 4/10
Killing Them Softly (Dominik, 2012) 2/10
The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm (Pal/Levin, 1962) 6/10
The Dark Past (Mate', 1948) 7/10
New Rose Hotel (Ferrara, 1998) 3/10
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:36 pm

Yesterday I kept prowling through all the text in the bbcode document for the long Find-it post for Peter Pan. I knew I'd miss something.

This morning I was looking at the archive copy of the page and I found what my eyes had seen, but my fatigue wouldn't ever let me remember to correct yesterday:
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The tracks from the 2003 film are available3 as mp3 downloads individually or as an album at Amazon.
In both the 1953 film block and the 2003 film block there was that same error. Apparently I found and corrected it for the 1924 film! I kept seeing "available3" and telling myself to go back and fix it. I kept forgetting to note it down on a Post-It, and so I never remembered to change it.

Until this morning.

How's that for obsessiveness?
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:20 pm

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A Comparison of The Fly (1958) and The Fly (1986)
Other Information on teh Netz

Basically, these links are some that I run across during each Rematch that don't really fit into essays. Or some that fit into essays, but as sources which I don't bother disclosing in the text of the essay. Or just some interesting crap about the flicks that I run across while researching for my essays and technical posts.

Image We always begin with the Wikipedia.
George Langelaan
Kurt Neumann
David Cronenberg
The Fly short story
The Fly 1958 film
The Fly 1986 film


Image NEWSY sorta LINKS:
Cronenberg has kids. They are grown, and at least one is interested in cinema. Cronenberg the younger arrives Son of acclaimed director says he was 'more of a book nerd growing up' By Glen Schaefer, The Province October 9, 2012.

August 16, 2012 12:55 Director David Cronenberg: 'Christopher Nolan's Batman films are boring'

Steven Shehori A Conversation With Legendary Director David Cronenberg posted: 08/23/2012 1:36 pm

Copyright: Esquire, February 1992: Which Is the Fly and Which Is the Human? -- Interview with William S. Burroughs and David Cronenberg by Lynn Snowden.

David Cronenberg Confirms He’s Written a Follow-Up to THE FLY by Adam Chitwood Posted: October 3rd, 2011 at 1:48 pm
David Cronenberg Reveals Details On The Scrapped The Fly Remake, Eastern Promises 2 published: 2011-11-22 08:42:40 Author: Katey Rich

Must be from the past:
From contactmusic.com: david cronenberg Interview Controversial visionary David Cronenberg sees technology, mankind, sexuality merging in 'eXistenZ'

The Fly the opera!: I found a number of links about this. Do you want to hear and see a bit of it? Still interested? A Google image search.


Image ACADEMIC sorta LINKS:
One of the things I do with these Rematches is wait until I've pretty much finished all my essays to begin looking for weblinks. This always allows me to find articles in which others have noticed many of the same aspects of each film that I wrote about. Almost always earlier than I did. Which means that if I found these first, I probably wouldn't write the essays in the first place. But I nearly alwasy find that others are sitting out there thinking overly hard abourt the same movies that enchant me. Some of them even compare originals to remakes once in a while! Here are some of those analytical style musings for the two versions of The Fly.

I didn't run across many true academic articles about either Fly movie. But I found The Annotated Fly by Greg Kirkman that's pretty interesting. It was posted on Monday, August 14, 2006.

I found some blog articles that appear to have been adapted from collegiate papers that the authors created:
Mediating The Fly : Posthuman Metamorphosis in the 1950s by Bruce Clark. This is a brief extract of the content of this paper, posted from Volume 10, Number 1, Winter 2002.

Joel Bocko wrote a comparison of the two films as Cronenberg Blogathon: The Fly (1958) vs. The Fly (1986).
Alexander Kirschenbaum The New Flesh: A Critical Analysis of 1980s Metamorphosis Cinema Monday, July 4th, 2011, Posted Tuesday, September 7, 2010 by Film International.

Reluctant Metamorphosis: Body Horror in David Cronenberg’s The Fly Posted by vornoff on August 3, 2011. "NOTE: This article is an excerpt of the final thesis for my M. A. degree in American studies. The paper’s full title is The Figure of the Mad Scientist in Contemporary Fiction. It deals with aforesaid character and his (as he is almost exclusively presented as male) rendering in movies such as Frankenstein, Tarantula, Bride of the Monster, Re-Animator and The Fly."


Image REVIEWS and INFORMATION:
The consensus on the internet seems to be that the 1986 film by David Cronenberg far exceeds the 1958 Kurt Neumann version for both horror and cinematic goodness. And there are a few articles that detail aspects of the film's production in retrospect. There are continuing reviews, like mine, that appear from time to time.

Nathaneil R. posted Oscar Horrors: Be Impressed. Be Very Impressed with The Fly's makeup on Sunday, October 30, 2011 at 12:00PM

Review of the 1958 film: "The monster in this, one of the most enduring films of its type, is based on an unusual premise-a failed experiment in teleportation (matter transmission)." The Fly Reviewed by: Brett Willis STAFF WRITER.

Review of the 1958 film: "Despite one of the silliest concepts in horror cinema - Price admitted being unable to keep a straight face during filming - there is something irresistable about this tale of a man who swaps heads with a housefly." Film 4 review.

"Here's another dueling trailer post. As mentioned before, I do not discuss the movies themselves in these entries, merely the way they're advertised. Anyway, with that in mind, here are the trailers to both versions of The Fly." Dueling Trailers: The Fly (1958 and 1986) Posted by Dave Enkosky at 7/05/2012 06:02:00 AM

"‘The Fly’ of 1958 is one of the greatest films to go down in history; for both good and bad reasons, whilst I have only seen this film recently, I already see myself as a fan of the film, I was enchanted by this film even with its age of fifty two, it gave me a window into the life of the 1950’s, which made me enjoy it even more." Ben Harris wrote about both films Sunday, 26 September 2010: The Fly 1958 vs The Fly 1986 Reviews.

Review of the 1986 film: "The most horrific aspect of David Cronenberg's version of The Fly is that it's a pretty earnest relationship drama." The Fly Movie Review from contactmusic.com

Analytical Review of the 1986 film from Robert at Wonders In the Dark, #32 The Fly. "As much as I love Cronenberg’s work and as synonymous with Body Horror as he has become, I think it is easy to get trapped into narrowly defining the genre by his interpretations. It is so easy, I think, because he has used multiple different avenues. We would be missing the point though if we did not explore Body Horror beyond his works."


Image CLIPS: Behind the Scenes 1986, and a deleted scene from the 1986 film that was excised because it destroyed any sympathy the test audiences had for Seth Brundle during the last act of the movie!
The Fly (1986) - Behind the Scenes

Part 1.

Part 2.

Deleted scene from 1986 film.

A double-feature: original on YouTube, and sequel on Daily Motion.
A YouTube upload of the 1958 film The Fly.
A Daily Motion upload of the 1959 film Return of the Fly. This one tosses an advertisement at you.
Plus, a double feature of the 1958 and 1959 films in their entirety (until some copyright holder has one taken down).

Image MISCELLANY and TRIVIA:
IMDb trivia for the Neumann film
IMDb trivia for the Cronenberg film.


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Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:06 am

A Comparison of The Fly (1958) and The Fly (1986)

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Romantic

The romantic aspects of both Fly movies are clear, and perfuse the productions. But they have different textures. Sure, both couples get to send pet animals across the lab as a stream of atoms. Sure they both get to pop a bottle or two of bubbly to celebrate the successful transmission of a living critter. Sure, both scientists are fathers in a biological sense, but even that aspect shares something of a different texture between the two films. The original and remake are couched in the social mores of two different decades in US history. Two decades that are quite different, standing on the opposite banks of a deep crevasse called the Sexual Revolution.

André and Helene are very much in love, and still act almost like a honeymoon couple at times. They have a son who is seven or eight years old. André is obsessed by his secret work for the government of Canada. The Transporation Ministry, of all things. Well, he's working on a way to send matter by electronic signal. His transmitter and receiver don't seem to be connected by wires the way the 1986 telepods are hooked up. So his system is wireless teleportation. He is humble with a twich or two of delusions of grandeur. Except, if his teleporter really works, he isn't delusional, is he? André makes time in all this to attempt cultivation of his marriage. He goes to the ballet with his beautiful wife, but gets so distracted by his laboratory project that he doodles mathematical formulae on the program pages.
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André Delambre doesn't conceal his work from everyone. He confides in his wife. He lets her see what he's up to, and even shows her what the machinery can do. He finally succeeds in transmitting a live guinea pig (there's a pun in there somewhere) and in celebration he shares that bottle of champagne with his spouse. But not before transmitting it across the laboratory. In this case it's champagne first, and guinea pig second. And then there is the accident. The creature named in the title occupies the transmitter cabinet with André on his second otherwise successful self-transmission. After that, André is unable to speak to his wife. But he reminds her that he still loves her, and she assures him that she still loves him. Even after she sees him with his new appendage and, later, with his new hairdo, she is stunned, but remains faithfully, loyally in love with him.

Seth and Veronica set out on a passionate experience in the 1986 film, something which is apparently new to Seth. The scientist's in-body experience alters the complexion of the relationship between them. Veronica gets to say the lines women so often use when aborting a romance in the movies: "You've changed." In other words, you are no longer what I bargained for; I liked you the way you used to be. But up until that time, things are hunky-dory between them. The sex seems to be quite good, and frequent over a period of time we cannot guess at. Is it months? Weeks? Days? Finally, one evening Seth successfully transmits a baboon, which he and Ronnie celebrate with bubbly. But an envelope has arrived in the mail for Ronnie which causes her to vacate the premises. Seth, being no dolt, calculates that something was or is going on between Ronnie and Stathos, and he gets drunk and jealous. He decides to step into telepod 1 and take a ride through the wires to telepod 2. Fifteen feet that will end life as he knows it.
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On his very first self-teleportation Brundle is joined by a six-legged, winged member of genus Musca. He doesn't lose his voice. In fact, he becomes loquacious, telling Ronnie how much he feels invigorated, and that he thinks teleportation has acted like a purifying filter for his molecules. But he will discover what the audience already knows: he's wrong about that. He's now contaminated in the most insidious way possible. You think a housefly throwing up on your hamburger bun is gross. Watch out.

I'm not the only one who sees the romaticism in the 1986 film. As I went looking for review links, one stood out because of its opening lines. This is an unnamed writer at contactmusic.com:
The most horrific aspect of David Cronenberg's version of The Fly is that it's a pretty earnest relationship drama. Not because the hindered courtship of girl reporter Geena Davis by scientist-fly hybrid Jeff Goldblum (what, did I give it away?) is embarrassing, like so many love stories pasted onto genre movies. Quite the contrary. The tension between these two characters - their moments of happiness and the botched science experiment that comes between them - is exactly what makes the film so harrowing.
It is not only a botched experiment that comes between the couple in the Cronenberg film. There is a triangle, making things difficult because tricycles are more difficult to tip over than bicycles are. That physical fact makes dumping an old boyfriend who is hanging around after she's picked a new one a more difficult thing for a woman to do. And Veronica doesn't succeed in breaking the bonds to Stathos (who proves that he'd give an arm and a leg for her). In the end it's probably a good thing that she cannot dump him, but it wrecks her chances with Seth even before the experiment crashes the whole thing.

In fact, both films are set up with a triangle. The triangle in the 1958 film is a screen addition; not in the short story. It is also very subtle to the point of near-invisibility. André's older brother François has an eye for Helene, even though she is a murderer. Perhaps he always has. This comes out most evidently at the end of the film, after charges are dropped against André's widow. In the 1986 film the triangle involves Veronica, her old boyfriend Stathos Borens, and Seth Brundle. This triangle is slightly more complicated than that in the 1958 movie, because the three vertices can see the triangle, and there are jealousies and struggles for independence muddying every drop of water that flows under the three-sided bridge.
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Cronenberg may purposely have the relationship issues more or less parallel with the transmutation story. Or it may simply be a lucky coincidence that the two operate in parallel. Relationships are experiments. Self-renewing experiments, prone to succeed or fail at the most unpredictable junctures. And as the end of the Cronenberg shows, a person with a heavy stake in a relationship may find it difficult to let go even when it is obvious that it cannot succeed. Or, like Helene in the 1958 film, the person may cling to the relationship and help it end reluctantly because of loyalty to the needs of the other party.

A human romantic relationship in both films lies alongside the messy accidental failures of science. It is a nearly perfect pairing of themes, don't you think?



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Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:37 pm

*sigh*

This morning when I logged-in to finish today's Rematch essay I had a PM from the person whom I had asked to write a guest essay for The Fly. :fresh:

I opened it with some apprehension, and unfortunately the apprehension was justified. Real life has trumped reel life; some people are missing from the guest essayist's workplace, and there will be no time to write anything for us to enjoy at the moment. :( So, no surprise guest essay for this go round.

That isn't the kind of surprise either you or I wanted, dreiser.

I have two Fly essays left to post, and then I'll begin to review Peter Pan films. Next to last Fly post will go up right now. The final in a couple days. There will be a gap in my posts between Monday or Tuesday when the final Fly essay goes up and next Saturday, when I plan to review the 1924 silent Peter Pan film.

Maybe we can get a couple people to write guest essays for Pan? :shifty:
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:39 pm

A Comparison of The Fly (1958) and The Fly (1986)

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The Casts are Compared

The George Langelaan short story has two specific points of view: the brother of a murdered man recounting the events surrounding his brother's killing, and his sister-in-law telling the story of why her husband's killing was not a murder. The 1958 movie takes a slightly more external view, but still mainly tells the story from two points of view: the brother, François, and the wife, Helene. Almost all the locations are retained from the story, and much of the dialog is. Charles Pogue wrote a screenplay that changed much of the story, and that was further re-written by David Cronenberg when he took over the project as director of the remake. Certain aspects of the 1958 film were retained in homage: there is a sort of factory/warehouse ambience included in the story; the woman lives in a somewhat frilly home, there is an animal teleported unsuccessfully; there is another animal successfully teleported; the experiment goes wrong when The Scientist teleports, due to a fly in the transmitter pod with him; the scientist undergoes a transformation in which the murderous mind of the fly takes over the humanity of the Scientist; the Scientist has to be killed in the end by The Love Interest, but with his collusion. Nearly everything else changes between 1958 and 1986. In fact, the films are so different that it's interesting to find even that many parallels!

As a consequence, there are only three roles that can be loosely compared as far as I can see. The 1958 version has police Inspector Charas who plays a large role, as that character (the Commissaire Charas) does in the short story, but there is no counterpart in the 1986 film. So, here are the three roles with counterparts, and the police Inspector.

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Al (David) Hedison and Jeff Goldblum as The Scientist
When I was a boy there was a youngish actor on television a lot. His name was David Hedison. Earlier in his career he had been known as Al Hedison, but a producer had changed his name for a one-season TV series called "Five Fingers," and the name change came to represent him to the public. He plays André Delambre in the Kurt Neumann film. His portrayal of a man whose passion doesn't totally displace him from family life until there is a disaster, is low key but sufficient. In the 1960s he got starring roles in television series, but gradually moved into guest star positions. He continues to play in both films and television programs now that he is a chiseled, grizzled 85 year old. Hedison has always been a reliably friendly face, and has played rather straight-forward characters. His looks keep him from playing many villains.

Jeff Goldblum began his film career as "Freak #1" in Death Wish (1974). His rather iconic face and his personalized style of delivering lines eventually made him a star. It took three years for him to achieve third billing. In 1980 he got top billing as Ichabod Crane in a television movie. His roles went between headliners and supporting roles for a few years. He played Ernie Kovacs in 1984, and was featured in ensemble casts during that decade as well. So Cronenberg cast Goldblum as Seth Brundle in his 1986 remake of The Fly. Goldblum manages to be both charming and frightening in the film, and to give the character a real sense of change and degradation as Brundle becomes Brundlefly. He is capable of both cockiness and desperation in the role. His performace as a scientist in that film no doubt led to his later casting as Dr Ian Malcom in the first two Jurassic Park films.

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Patricia Owens and Geena Davis as The Love Interest
In the short story Madame Delambre doesn't survive through the end of the text. In the film she is still there, smiling and being Mommy to Philippe as the final moments play out. Patricia Owens turns in a solid performance as the loyal wife of a man whose job has thrown the couple an incomprehensible curve in the middle of the game. I think her best moment is when she says, "I can't answer that question. Coffee, Inspector?" in response to an inquiry about her reasons for compressing her late husband in a steam press. By 1958 Owens had begun to take TV supporting roles, but her career mostly centered on B-pictures for theatrical release. Although she had jucier roles, she is best known today for her role in The Fly.

Geena Davis was Jeff Goldblum's real-life main squeeze and roommate at the time of Cronenberg's The Fly, a fact that Cronenberg thinks made the relationship between them sizzle more on screen. My first exposure to Davis was in the 1992 film A League of their Own, although she had already played Thelma in Thelma and Louise, and Veronica Quaife in The Fly. Her main advantage for the part is that she is able to play aggressive and frightened equally well, and she has to do both in this film. Her final moment is one of the strongest, when her mouth says one thing, but her body does another. She gives Ronnie the backbone that she needs, even while her face says she'd rather be anywhere else at the moment. Goldblum and Davis were an excellent match for the parts of Seth and Veronica.

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Vincent Price and John Getz as The Other Man
The Other Man means two different things in these two films. Vincent Price is François Delambre, the brother of the squashed scientist in the 1958 film. He knows that André was working on something that required vast expenditures for tech, but he has no idea what the device was. He sees it only after the fly has wrecked the laboratory. One of the commentators on the 1958 DVD alleges that The Fly created a new career for Price, but the IMDb bio page shows that he had already played Prof Henry Jerrod in House of Wax five years earlier. And you can see in the listing some other dark roles that he had taken on. He isn't the bad guy, or even slightly sinister in The Fly. He plays Vincent Price as he always did, and in the process captures your eye every second he is on screen.

John Getz plays Veronica Quaif's boss, but he is also her ex, and that leads to tension in Cronenberg's vision of The Fly. I suppose that the story needs someone who won't give up, someone who can rescue Ronnie in the end. But Stathis Borans (whose name I've mostly misspelled throughout this Rematch) as played by Getz is such a puke that it seems his gallantry is totally accidental; and it is no illusion that everything he does is self-serving, rather than being done for Veronica. Two years before The Fly, Getz was Ray in Blood Simple, the first Coen Brothers feature film. He obviously had skills at playing a character such as Stathis. Cronenberg says on the commentary track for The Fly that he meant Stathis to be a character with fuzzy ethics, and someone who eventually does the right thing but not necessarily with the proper motivations. Getz pegs the role, which I know because I still can't stand him after seeing the film six times!

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Herbert Marshall as The Inspector
It might be possible to argue that Stathis Borens is the counterpart to Inspector Charas. After all, he shows up with a gun at the end intending to punish Seth, or at least to keep him from harming Ronnie. But Stathis is not a policemen, he isn't investigating anything at all. Charas noses about gathering information until he is sure he has enough to arrest Mme. Delambre for murder, then he moves in. During her apprehension he goes out to the garden where he sees what's left of André. He realizes that either he is mad, or the woman is telling the truth. Herbert Marshall won a star on the Walk of Fame in 1960 for his roles in 82 titles up to that time. He died in 1966 after rounding his lifetime number of credits up to 90. Marshall began acting in silent films in 1927, at the tail end of their preeminence, and made the transition to sound movies two years later. His IMDb bio page reveals that Marshall performed in his own remake rematch by playing the murder victim in the 1929 film of The Letter, and the estranged husband in its 1940 remake with Bette Davis. Marshall turned 40 in 1930 so he was middle-aged when he began his cinematic career. Before that he was a stage actor.

Marshall often had roles where he stood still or sat down, as he had lost a leg during World War I, and used a wooden prosthesis. His costar in The Fly, Al Hedison, points out in the commentary track on the DVD that Kurt Neumann has the Inspector walking around quite a bit in the 1958 film.


The lack of counterparts elsewhere in these films makes this the end of the cast comparison essay!



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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:23 pm

As I was looking for new book samples to download for my nook tablet, I ran across another pair of Pan derivatives. The Barrie story seems to be fodder for all kinds of derivative stories, graphic novels and movies!

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There is a graphic novel/comics series called Grimm Fairy Tales Presents Neverland that retells the Peter Pan story in a dark way similar to Brom's The Child Thief. Peter Pan has found a way to live forever by taking the souls of children from the earth. Hardcover. From Amazon. From Barnes & Noble where it is also available as an electronic cbz version. From Strand.

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There is also a series of six comics that are collectively entitled Panned! that update the story. In this case, widowed salesman Steven Crespo awakens to find himself replacing the late Captain Hook. In fact, he is the newest in a series of Captain Hooks waging war with the all-powerful boy, Peter Pan...who has killed all his predecessors. These are available as nook graphic novels. Number 1 is free, numbers 2-6 are $1.99 each.
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If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:40 am

A Comparison of The Fly (1958) and The Fly (1986)

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What do you Show?

Being crushed to death beneath the top block of a steam press would probably not be the best way to die, although it should be complete. So, why does the steam press have to be closed two times to rid the world of the techno-monster in the 1958 movie? Obviously, to crank up the ickiness of the death to 11! Why else?

The original film shows a lot of closeups of houseflies crawling about on household surfaces, and a swarm of flies around a trashcan. For some people this kind of thing is stomach-churning. For some people the red paint that stands in for blood in the steam press is stomach-churning. For almost anyone the extreme closeup of the tiny fly-man caught in a spider web (not to mention the anatomically incorrect giant spider) is unnerving. Showing a poor, innocent cat being disintegrated without ever re-integrating is spine-chilling to some. Poor Dandelo! Other shots are calculated to gross-out audiences: the fly claw resting on a plate of food; the full-head makeup that creates the man-fly from actor Al Hedison.
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The 1986 film trumps anything Kurt Neumann decided to do, though. Beginning with Scanners in 1980 (or 1981 depending whether you believe the DVD box or IMDb), David Cronenberg began to graphically depict horrible changes in the bodies of his actors. No CGI, all practical effects based on air bladders and the like. And it looks downright painful! Not to mention ugly. For The Fly, Cronenberg demanded the near-impossible from the people at Chris Walas Productions. Their response to his expectations led to their acceptance of an Oscar for Best Makeup in 1987. But the Oscar was not for most beautiful makeup.

I haven't found much that would answer the question I put in the title of this essay, other than pure speculation. In other words, I assume the 1958 film shows everything the producers thought they could get away with in terms of technology, 50s mores, and budget. I assume Cronenberg did the same for the 1986 era. I have a little evidence for that: he admits in his commentary on the DVD that there is a lot in The Fly that he believes he never could have gotten away with in anything besides a horror movie. The studio execs would have nixed a lot of it.

So, from our position in cinematic history, the 1958 modus seems a lot clearer than it probably was to Neumann and his crew. And the 1986 direction seems to be more experimental when you consider that most of what was shown was executed at the leading edge of cinematic creature-craft of the day.
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The only omission I know of from the Cronenberg film is one scene that tested badly with audiences prior to the film's release. The so-called "monkey-cat" scene showed Brundlefly creating and killing a fusion of a baboon and a cat. This was cut from the final release because it reduced audience sympathy for Seth Brundle to nearly zero. In the scene he reacts to the horrid hybrid by picking up a nearby steel pipe and whacking at the critter until it dies. He seems remorseful immediately afterward, but it was still enough to make audiences move from caring about him and his latent humanity, to hating him. I can see why Cronenberg decided to drop the scene: in the commentary track for the DVD he states that he wanted to let the audience experience the transformation. That was his greatest personal interest in the story. By his dramatic process he lets us find out what it's like to undergo an alteration of one's mind and body, the way Seth Brundle does. He wants us to ride it out without bailing. And too many audience members were bailing on Seth after they saw him kill the baboon-cat.

So, based on the evidence I have at hand I can try to answer my question "What do you show?" You show anything that doesn't alienate the audience from your desired dramatic aim. We can see Seth Brundle getting facial pock-marks, becoming a naked, reddish blobby sort of critter, and still not totally lose sympathy for him as a human being. We can hear him tell Veronica to leave, because if she stays he will hurt her, and not totally lose sympathy. As long as he retains his humanity, we can sympathize with the character. We can see him vomit bile onto Stathis's hand and foot, and remain sympathetic, because we understand that this is self-defense against a man with a loaded shotgun. We can see his jaw come off in Ronnie's hand, and watch his flesh break away and reveal a giant insectoid monster, and not totally lose sympathy. It is important that we not lose sympathy because we have to understand why Veronica hesitates to squeeze the shotgun trigger at the very end of the film. We cannot do this if we see Brundle become a short-tempered, paranoid thing that reacts to ugliness by beating it to death. No matter how much sense it might make in the "reality" of the film world, it alienates our affection for the man-fly.

Structurally, the scene sets up the intense horror of the moment at the end when Seth Brundlefly intends to place himself in Telepod B and Veronica in Telepod A and merge them both to Telepod C. If the monkey-cat scene were still in the film we'd have already seen how this kind of fusion goes totally wrong, but as it is, we don't have that knowledge. There is, therefore, less suspense (and horror) in that final sequence. Despite its dramatic purpose, ultimately, Cronenberg omitted the scene because it derailed his overall dramatic intention. He doesn't omit it because of any gruesome visuals. What he shows us in the rest of the film is totally gross. The first time I saw the moulting scene it made my skin crawl. The first time I saw the Brundlepod grasp the mouth of the shotgun barrel with its claw and place it to its head I realized that the Brundle-brain was still active inside this indescribable living thing, and I recoiled. The first time I heard Ronnie groan, "I can't!" I fully understood. But I also understood what she does a second later in the next-to-last shot of the film.
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A lot of what Cronenberg puts up on the screen in the 1980 Scanners works against sympathy for the scanner characters. I think he was just trying to show things that were ugly and horrible and twisted, because he could. Maybe that was the aim of the film. Relative to later Cronenberg films, the story is difficult to follow, and the effects don't make much sense even in what little context there is. Six years later he had matured as a writer and filmmaker to the point where he could leave out some grossness in order to take a mainline toward his dramatic aim. And his choice to leave out a scene that he completely filmed and finished, which means he liked it that much, shows why Cronenberg's later films are edgy, but approachable. Why his characters inhabit a world that is out of control, but we still willingly go along with them to the end. I wouldn't want to be any of his main characters. I wouldn't want to live in the hellish worlds they live in. But I sure enjoy visiting them for a couple of hours!



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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:13 am

Hoo Hoo! Mine's up next!
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:13 am

Yep. At last.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:14 am

Don't ask me for any guest essays. K?
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:15 am

Hell, I'll just make you write them all.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:18 am

I'm too busy watching films and readin' stuff for you to have time to write all that stuff.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:19 am

Oh. Well, I was hoping since it was my own rec you'd be helping me out.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:19 am

*sigh* You know you can't get rid of me. :shifty: Everywhere I go, there you are.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by dreiser » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:40 am

YouTookMyName wrote: The only omission I know of from the Cronenberg film is one scene that tested badly with audiences prior to the film's release. The so-called "monkey-cat" scene showed Brundlefly creating and killing a fusion of a baboon and a cat. This was cut from the final release because it reduced audience sympathy for Seth Brundle to nearly zero. In the scene he reacts to the horrid hybrid by picking up a nearby steel pipe and whacking at the critter until it dies. He seems remorseful immediately afterward, but it was still enough to make audiences move from caring about him and his latent humanity, to hating him. I can see why Cronenberg decided to drop the scene...
No kidding. A rare case where a test audience is on the money. The baboon scene by itself establishes how dangerous and foolhardy Brundlefly's transporting experiment is.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:22 am

dreiser wrote:
The baboon scene by itself establishes how dangerous and foolhardy Brundlefly's transporting experiment is.
True. Honestly, I hadn't thought of it from quite that angle. And from the angle of "nothing he tries works out as planned" we've already established that with the same scene you mentioned. After all, the audience knows about the fly long before Seth does! What seems to the scientist to have worked...didn't. Also, I don't need the monkey-cat debacle to cause me to start disliking him. I dislike him enough when he kidnaps Veronica. 8-)
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by dreiser » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:31 am

YouTookMyName wrote:Also, I don't need the monkey-cat debacle to cause me to start disliking him. I dislike him enough when he kidnaps Veronica. 8-)
Yeah, bit like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:58 pm

A note to those of you who think you have nothing pertinent to say in this thread: if you'd just post once or twice, or I guess even bump the thread, it would reduce the graphic density of the pages, allowing them to load a lot faster.

I suppose I could have more ersatz conversations between Gort and YTMN.

But...


Anyhow, here comes the first essay post for the Peter Pan Multimatch!
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:58 pm

A Comparison of Peter Pan (1924) Peter Pan (1953) & Peter Pan (2003)

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"Mary Martin is Not Peter Pan!"

There is a movie called Switch in which an actress plays a murdered womanizer who has returned from the dead as a woman to pay penance for his sins while alive. Ellen Barkin does an excellent job of moving and talking the way Peter King does in his brief opening sequence as the cad, Steve Brooks. In the film CJ7 the main character, a little boy, is actually played by a little girl. When the film was over and I watched the making-of feature I learned that Jiao Xu, who plays Dickey, is actually a she. But there are a couple of intervening facts that make these roles work.
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First of all, Ellen Barkin plays a woman, it's simply that her spirit is male. So we see a woman, and the world around her in the film sees a woman who they are told is Steve's half-sister (no one knows it's actually Steve unless he tells them). So this works dramatically and comically, and I like the movie largely for this performance. In CJ7 a little girl plays the role of a little boy. Since there are not nude scenes, who could tell? She isn't even 8 years old yet, and at that age boys and girls are not so different as they will be seven years later. So, I like the movie, and I applaud the director for casting her as Dickey. Mainly because it works. As I wrote above, I had no idea that he was played by a she until I watched the featurette.

I am not talking about actresses playing a woman who passes as a man, as in the recent film Albert Nobbs, or the 1983 The Ballad of Little Jo. I am talking about dramas where an actress plays a role that is supposed to be a boy or man. This is often unconvincing.
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As you know, the convention in the time of William Shakespeare was that boys played all women characters on stage. That was probably not convincing, either. Maybe it was. I wasn't there to see it done. In those days it was considered indecent for women to be in the theater as actresses. The film Shakespeare in Love is unhistorical as all get out, but does play on this convention by having a young woman who is in love with playwright/actor William Shakespeare pretend to be a boy playing a girl in order to be close to him. Not only that, it's a very entertaining piece of celluloid.

I located a list of actresses who have played boys in movies. No mention is made of anyone who played Peter Pan. This makes me wonder what else the list is missing. But I have seen Peter played by women. When I was young I saw a musical stage adaptation of James Barrie's play produced for television. It was my first exposure to Peter Pan. I was not even in grade school yet, and I don't remember whether I noticed anything about Peter that seemed "out of whack" at that time.
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When I was a bit older, I used to watch the 1960 NBC color production of that same Broadway stage-presentation. It features Mary Martin as Peter. I saw it in black-and-white, of course, because we didn't own a color television set. There was never any illusion created for me that this Peter was a boy. I knew that Peter Pan was supposed to be a boy, but I did not see, nor could I imagine that I was seeing, a boy on screen. To me, this Peter Pan was (and still is) a woman playing the part. In fact, I used to gripe that Mary Martin was the only "Peter" Pan I could see (whenever they repeated the 1960 TV show). She doesn't look like a boy at all, nor does she move like a boy, although she makes an effort to do so. She doesn't really even sound like a boy, and when I was a boy that made me mad. They didn't have boys or men playing girls in movies and TV shows! I didn't think it was quite fair to have a woman playing Peter, but as a kid there was nothing I could do about it other than grumble.

I always assumed this casting choice was made because a woman's voice is high-pitched, as a boy's is. So, I figured the reason no one ever cast a boy to play Peter is most likely logistical: a woman's voice won't change after a few years (the way a boy actor's would), and she isn't likely to grow taller (the way a boy would). She can tour the country playing Peter Pan to packed audiences for longer than an individual boy might be able to. As it turns out, that casting choice is rooted as much in the Principal Boy character of British pantomime tradition as it is in performance logistics.
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Probably the first time I ever saw Peter Pan played by an actor was in 1991 when I saw the movie Hook. For most of my life the Principal Boy effect held sway. But, as I learned, this actress-as-Peter thing started about the time my grandparents were born, and Barrie's play was brand new.
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I've never seen any filmed performance by an actress named Maude Adams, who was known for decades in American theater, and portrayed Joan of Arc among other fabled women. Adams was made wealthy by her portrayals of Peter Pan in 1905, 1906, and then in revivals in 1912 and 1915. She earned a million dollars a year before there was a Federal Income Tax, and back when "a dollar was a dollar." I suppose for a generation she was Peter. Her first young fans would have included boys who later went to World War I. Her young fans during the revival years would become the adults who would be first crushed by The Great Depression, and watch their children be hungry and destitute, and then watch their sons go off to Europe and the Pacific in the next big war. Adams was 33 when she first hit the boards as the boy who refused to grow up. She was 44 when she played him in her final tour as Pan. I never saw her, of course, and probably none of my ancestors did, given where they grew up in rural Arkansas and Texas.
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As a kid watching Mary Martin fly around, I didn't realize that the first cinematic Peter Pan was played by a young woman. The practice of having Peter played by an actress was followed by Herbert Brennon in 1924. By that time having actresses play Peter Pan was already a 20-year tradition. Betty Bronson was 18 years old when she won the part, ahead of a few well-known Hollywood names. Although her predicted stardom never developed beyond this one film, she made films through 1937 before taking a break until 1961, when she returned as a bit-part player in films and TV shows.
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More recently, former Olympic gymnast Cathy Rigby has made a career of playing Peter Pan. The A&E/NHK joint television production of "Cathy Rigby is Peter Pan" (2000) is a far cry better than the Mary Martin show. Here's Part 1 of 13 on YouTube to start you off. This musical play has a good dynamic, a great deal better production value, and the flying scenes with Peter are very well-done. The music doesn't seem as poorly-placed to me as in the 1960 version (which is basically the same show, so I guess the Martin and Rigby TV productions turn this into a double Remake Rematch). By the way, two of the Lost Boys, 1st Twin and Tootles are played by actresses in this production!

Overall, I have no disagreement with women playing Peter Pan. Why shouldn't they? But the use of a woman, with a woman's proportions and way of moving just takes this viewer out of a willing suspension of disbelief. No matter how well she manages the flying stunts, and Mary Martin was good at the flying scenes, as was Betty Bronson, she still doesn't resemble a he, and that was confusing for me when I was a little kid. Rigby comes off somewhat more believable as a boy, but her thighs don't look boyish. I wondered if casting women as Peter Pan causes confusion for girls as well. One woman admits that it once did confuse her to some extent.
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In this Remake Multimatch we have one live-action film in which Peter is played by an actress; one animated film in which a boy does Peter's voice, and performs in the reference live footage for the animators to use as a guide, but is never seen onscreen; and one live-action film where Peter is played by a 14-year old actor. For the most part the casting of this role won't be the primary concern of any other essays or reviews. But my experience of Peter Pan began with casting as a major concern, and in 2003, I decided to give PJ Hogan's film a shot simply because young Jeremy Sumpter was given a chance to play the boy who refused to grow up.



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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Quite-Gone Genie » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:05 am

Can't bump. Reading...
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:48 am

A Comparison of Peter Pan (1924) Peter Pan (1953) & Peter Pan (2003)
Peter Pan (1924) dir. Herbert Brenon
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IMDb link RT-link

Year: 1924 Director: Herbert Brenon -- Cast: Betty Bronson, Anna May Wong, Cyril Chadwick, Esther Ralston, Mary Brian, Jack Murphy, Phillippe De Lacy -- Length: 105 min. B&W with tinting/silent with orchestra soundtrack

A stage play is not cinematic. By its nature it is carried by dialog. So it was a surprise to see that the adaptation of James M. Barrie's 1904 play "Peter Pan" comes off well as a silent film! The duration of intertitles is reduced to a minimum in order to carry the story for the audience, while a lot of the action is pared down to pantomime. In fact, the famous English "pantos" were used as the format for the production of the original play, where the principle boy is played by an actress. I can only assume that the film was meant for a general audience, especially an audience including children.

This film runs a half hour longer than the Disney animated film of 29 years later. It runs only 9 minutes shorter than the 2003 version that was released 79 years after this silent film premiered.

For some of the performances I have to wonder if Barrie, who had quite a powerful contract for the screen rights to the play, also approved how they were played. In other words, did Barrie actually like the overacting Peter, and the over-preening Captain Hook? Even though Barrie himself hand-picked Betty Bronson to play Peter, she doesn't come off as a boy at all. More on that thought below.

Here are some aspects of the film that I like, both large and small:
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Like The production values are rather high. The crew either built or used a ship that's on the water. The miniatures for the scene at the end where the ship flies back home are quite good. Jame's Wong Howe's photography is sometimes inventive, and always just right.

Like In fact, the sets and costumes apart from the Darling house are really well-conceived and executed. The film has a good technical aspect for its day. One or two scenes have some bulging of clothing that mars the flying rig shots. But for the most part the flying rigs are the near-equal of modern ones. It is clear that this film had the budget to create the Never Never Land that the audience might have imagined when reading the novel.

Like The house-building scene is full of camera tricks, which adds a kind of magic to it that it lacks in most other screen adaptations. The parts of the house are brought in and laid helter-skelter around Wendy on the ground, but then they assemble themselves. Even the window curtain ties form themselves up into bows. It's a Georges Méliès moment without Georges being nearby. When Peter appropriates John's top hat for the chimney, it begins to emit a column of smoke as soon as it's in place.

Like Ms Bronson actually makes the flying sequences look real. She handles take-offs and touch-downs as if she is providing the power on her own. But she has a habit of milling her feet as if she is swimming as she flies, which detracts.
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Like The special effects are...effective. Until this movie was made Tinker Bell had always been represented on stage by a light projected on the walls of the set. For the first time, this screen adaptation used a real woman in closeups (Virginia Brown Faire) and a very interesting internally-lit object that is flown around the set on a wire to create Tink's motion sequences. The performance of George Ali as Nana the dog, in fact the costume itself, are convincing enough. Now, you don't for a moment think it's really a dog or an alligator. Whereas I never do think, "Wow, Bronson really moves like a boy," I do find myself thinking that Ali has captured the mannerisms of a dog quite nicely. I cannot explain why I'm unable to apply the same generosity to Ms Bronson's performance that I do to Mr Ali's!

Like Peter actually cries tears when he cannot get the shadow to attach to his feet. It makes Wendy's question, "Boy, why are you crying?" make so much more sense.

Like The Lost Boys when we first meet them are playing wild animals in the woods, and their outfits, though possibly made of real animal fur, are charming. They add to the oddness of the scenes in the woods. We later learn that they don't dress that way all the time, but it's a good introduction to this clique of little kids.

Like When we first visit the underground domain of Peter and the Lost Boys we learn that they have a Murphy bed in the wall. Not only that, all the "linens" are made of leaves!
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Like When Peter stabs Captain Hook with a sword, we see blood on the Captain's hand after he touches the wound.

Like The score on the KINO DVD, although that has nothing to do with the original film. This is a new score by Philip C Carli. I can imagine that the score that accompanied the film initially was like this. It reinforces the emotional content of each scene, without getting in the way or becoming so off-track that it seems to have nothing to do with what's happening on screen.

Now, a few things about the film that bounce me out of it all too quickly.
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Don't Like There is an essay that goes into this aspect in greater detail. When the 1924 adaptation of Peter Pan was released there was already a 20-year tradition of having actresses play Peter in the British pantomime-like stage productions. This casting tradition was followed by Herbert Brenon, even though a film using a boy wouldn't have been thwarted by having the actor grow taller, later on. Nor would the voice of a woman have any advantage whatsoever for a silent movie! Betty Bronson's style as Peter Pan is just not ... right. She moves like a dancer (which is not a negative in and of itself). Bronson sways her shoulders, throws her arms behind her torso, and points her toes too much. A boy who moved like her would, unfortunately, be...beaten up frequently. At least Mary Martin tried to move in a masculine way. At first I thought it might be because of Bronson's eye makeup that she isn't convincing, but the Lost Boys are played by the genuine articles, all of whom wear lip and eye makeup for the camera, and still are recognizable as the young male of the species. It's not only her movement that thwarts the illusion, but her relatively large thighs, and apparently small feet and hands. Yet Bronson's performance doesn't ruin the film. There are plenty of other moments that rescue it. And she is a beautiful young woman...just not boyish. I am not able to suspend disbelief enough to ever see her as Peter Pan the boy; but, as I said, there are a number of wonders in this film that make up for her unconvincing physical characterization of the lead.

Don't Like Peter's costume looks too much like a dress. Just another barrier to me thinking of him as a he.

Don't Like A casting issue: Wendy and Peter seem too old. The rest of the children in the film are played by children, but Wendy and Peter are played by much older teenagers, and it just doesn't jell. But that was the style back then, and into the early 1960s. I think the adults in the casting departments all thought that teenagers can't act.
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Don't Like Captain Hook is a bit too foppish. I know this is aimed at children, who would be genuinely frightened at a more evil villain, but I think the performance goes too far in the other direction. Perhaps this was the model for the 1954/1960 Captain Hook that I dislike. For the record, this 1924 Captain Hook is a manly-man compared to Hook as played by Cyril Ritchard.

Don't Like The "American" stamp is put on the movie -- which is understandable -- but it's laid on a bit thick, and I don't like it. The English practice of having a Nanny for the children is carried over, but even though the home parts of the play seem set in London, the kids are suddenly solid Americans when facing Hook aboard the Jolly Roger. Causes a few WTF moments.

Because of the difficulties I face in believing Ms Bronson is the boy Peter Pan, I keep watching this film and thinking, "It's a movie, not a stage production. They should have just found a boy who could play Peter. He'd have fit right in with the wonderful casting of the Lost Boys. His fascination with Wendy wouldn't have seemed quite so weird." I think teh film would have been much better. But I suspect that no one but women were ever considered for the title role. What I can never know is whether this mattered to the audiences in the last half of the Roaring Twenties.

Overall I think this film succeeds. It's simply that where it fails in my opinion is in one very crucial aspect of the visuals. Because silent films are nearly all visuals this has a strong impact on the final perception of Herbert Brenon's Peter Pan.



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And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:46 pm

A Comparison of Peter Pan (1924) Peter Pan (1953) & Peter Pan (2003)
Walt Disney's Peter Pan (1953)
dir. Clyde Geronimi, Wilfred Jackson, Hamilton Luske, and Jack Kinney

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IMDb link RT-link

Year: 1953 Directors: Clyde Geronimi, Wilfred Jackson, Hamilton Luske, and Jack Kinney -- Cast: Bobby Driscoll, Kathryn Beaumont, Hans Conried, Bill Thompson, June Foray -- Length: 77 min. Color/Mono

This is the first screen version of Peter Pan (probably the first version ever) in which Nana and the crocodile weren't played by knee-crawling actors in costumes. This was the first version of record in which Peter was played by a boy (who did both the voice acting, and the filmed action modeling for the animators to follow). Bobby Driscoll was a Disney boy actor in their regular stable of performers. It was kind of a plum part for him, and a pioneering role in the sense of breaking the traditional lock on the part held by actresses. An aside: I can easily imagine that some local productions used boys to play Peter before 1953, but no touring companies did. I have no corroboration for this idea, though.
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Walt Disney saw the 1924 Herbert Brenon silent production of the story as a boy. It lodged in his imagination. When he began making animated films he wanted to bring Peter Pan to the screen as an animated feature. In fact, the film was originally scheduled to follow Snow White and the Seven Dwarves into the theaters, but the Disney team had trouble getting the story just like they wanted it. Only after World War II were they able to say (in 1948) "We're doing Pan, now." There are any number of parallels between Brenon's staging and Disney's, but the Disney team added many touches of their own. Some of these would be appropriated by PJ Hogan a half century later.

Kathryn Beaumont, who is the voice of Alice in Disney's Alice in Wonderland, plays Wendy in this film. To tell the truth, this film should have been entitled Wendy and Hook, because they become the featured roles in the movie.

As far as I recall my first exposure to this film was in 6th grade when my teacher rolled a 16mm projector down to our classroom, set up a screen and ran the movie for us. I fell in love with the musical motif that signals the approaching crocodile. I still love that music. It gets stuck in my head whenever I hear it. I admired the way Wendy seems to float when she walks. And I really dug the way Peter simply flies, without having to jump at all. He just rises into the air. This was not my first Peter Pan experience (that would have been the Mary Martin TV special) but it was the one I liked best up to that time.

Here are some aspects of the film that I like:
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Like The animation. It's Disney, after all, in their golden days of animation when they seemed to Pixar everything they did. It was ten or twelve years before the studio became a "churn-it-out" place and the stories suffered. The whole thing is carefully built with all sorts of little gimme's to brighten your day, or at least a moment or two of your viewing experience. The pirate singing the pirate song on a yardarm (the one Hook shoots to death) is wearing a bandage on his toe. One pirate in the final battle is clubbed over the head by one of the kids, and bites toothmarks into the sword he's carrying up the rope ladder between his teeth. The animators took pains to make fabric move due to air currents as Peter flew around. When Hook is spat out by the croc at the end of the film, he skips like a stone across the water and his scream is intermittent as his mouth burrows into the liquid, then is freed from its muffler. There are dozens of others, but I don't recall all of them right now.

Like The story is adapted for very young audiences, and to the sensibilities of the post-WWII population. I like this aspect because it's a social microscope for us all these decades later. This means that violence is okay as long as you don't show killing directly. That's why Hook is still alive at the end of the film. That's why a pirate killed by Hook is killed off-camera. In 1924 and in the stage productions Hook dies, and we know it. Wendy is threatened by the weapon-wielding Lost Boys after Twink tells them to kill the wendy-bird, but Pan stops them before Wendy can be shot. And, oddly, the poison that Peter drinks in the play and book is replaced by a bomb in this movie. A time bomb. How come? Post WWII and contemporary Korean War fascinations with kaboom? The forerunner of our modern schizoid belief that we should protect our kids from violence, yet our entertainment continues to ram it down their throats all the time.
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Like Hook's tastiness to the crocodile is turned into two slapstick scenes that are amusing to watch. There are a lot of little animation touches feathered into both of them. The second concludes with the skipping stone event that I described above. In both cases absurdity reigns supreme, which is important because in the original play and novel Barrie used the absurdist motif that Lewis Carroll and A. A. Milne used in their kids works. Barrie didn't constantly wander into the absurdist language and word-play in the way that the other two authors did, but he made free use of the method. It's good to see it co-opted in a visual style in this film.

Like The artwork, apart from the animation of that artwork, is delightfully laid out. The color selection is rich, but follows natural colors for the most part. We see purple stones and the like, but it's presented more as a lighting effect. The mermaids are probably the most exotic animals we see, but they have normal human-colored hair and their fish tails are gray-blue. As always the concept artists and animators focus on detail. For example, in the "Following the Leader" musical sequence, when the boys pass through a field of tall grass we get the sense of every stalk being separate and alive. A few years later, even Disney would have cut corners in that kind of scene.

Like The audio track, aside from that one song I can't stand, is masterfully done. Of course, I don't know how much the soundtrack was enhanced for the 2-Disc Platinum Edition DVD.

Here are some aspects of the film that I don't care for:
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Don't Like Yeah, we're starting this section off with the title music. "You Can Fly" made me cringe as an 11 year-old. It still does. Only the parts with the vocals. At the end it is played as an instrumental and it's fine, then. Well, I just have never liked that style of singing and harmonic arrangement. The voices chosen for solos make my skin crawl. Don't know why.

Don't Like The stereotypical Indian tribe. But, of course, those were movie Indians of the day, and this is a cartoon. One subversion of the stereotype occurs when John Darling is telling the Lost Boys how they will easily defeat the Indians, explaining that "they aren't intelligent, so we shall surround them." At that very moment the Indians, disguised as fir trees, are surrounding the Lost Boys.

Don't Like That everything moves so rapidly. Sure, it's great skill in animation to smoothly show rapid motion, but I'd sometimes like to just savor the motion and the drawings. They go by so fast! This no doubt keeps the kiddies involved, but you're left with overall impressions rather than feelings of being in the presence of something awe-inspiring. Maybe that's just me. (I never thought I'd say a cartoon was too fast-paced!)
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(Driscoll images from John K Stuff: Bobby Driscoll's Story)
It's possible that I have a residual prejudice against silent films because they are voiceless, but this film is better than the Herbert Brenon film that inspired young Walt Disney to become an animator. You'd expect this, since Disney and his associates had that film to use for a platen. Also, they worked on the story for years. I think Disney did the right thing to take advantage of the animated nature of the film to cast Bobby Driscoll as Peter, so that Peter's voice sounds like an actual boy's voice. And the film takes advantage of its status as cel-animation to add touches that are in no other Peter Pan before it. As nifty as it is to have a scrim shadow folded into a drawer on stage and in the Brenon film, in this film the shadow is alive on its own, and Peter has to chase it around the Darling home in order to catch it! Marvelous. And I've already noted that Peter and the other flying children can do literally any move that the animators could dream up as they fly. Impossible on stage with a flying rig. The flying sequences in the 1953 film exceed those in the 2003 re-remake for virtuosity.

The Disney crew keep the story elevated, in that you can tell that they have great respect and admiration for the original play and its revered status. Now, keep in mind, that a lot of what happens in this film is actually lifted from the novel that Barrie wrote based on his own play, rather than the stage play that was the basis for Brenon's movie. As we move along to the 2003 film we'll see an even greater influence on PJ Hogan from the novel, but, as I wrote above, we'll see that Hogan's script and production was inspired by scenes that exist in no Barrie work, only in this Disney film.



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If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:10 pm

Genie says it's lurkers.

There must be a lot of them clicking on links to read the content posts of this thread. Before I put up the 1953 Peter Pan review the view count looked like this:
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I just watched the view count pass 90,000 a few days ago. I hope Genie is right, but I can't for the life of me guess where all the clicks are coming from.

Thank you, everyone, for reading.

I still wish people would make comments, whether salient or inane, just to get the graphic weight of each page lower. The record so far is page 21 (if you're set for 50 posts to a page) which weighs in at 21.5 MB. But page 23 (this page) is catching up. After the second Pan review it's already at 20.6 MB. If the pages load slowly on your computer, that's why!

But I'll likely remain the Lone Poster in here! Hiyo, Silverlight, away!
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Quite-Gone Genie » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:17 pm

I'm sure I can conjure up a fair quantity of inane posts.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:24 pm

Quite-Gone Genie wrote:I'm sure I can conjure up a fair quantity of inane posts.
Go for it.
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:24 pm

Well, here's a second or third inane post.
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Gort » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:25 pm

I can feel the graphics to text ratio of the page dropping.

But not exactly precipitously. :shifty:
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Colonel Kurz » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:30 pm

YouTookMyName wrote:but I can't for the life of me guess where all the clicks are coming from.
We all want you to pan the films from the latest rematch.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:40 pm

Colonel Kurz wrote: We all want you to pan the films from the latest rematch.
I try to write trash about them, but my efforts to sustain the rancor always peter out.
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"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Colonel Kurz » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:43 pm

YouTookMyName wrote:but my efforts to sustain the rancor always peter out.
I bet you'd have less trouble with that if reviewing Return of the Jedi.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:49 pm

Colonel Kurz wrote: I bet you'd have less trouble with that if reviewing Return of the Jedi.
That rancor dies every time I watch. I keep thinking sometime it will be smart enough not to stretch out on the floor beneath the portcullis, but it's just a stupid big lug.

I hear Thanksgiving leftovers being readied for supper. It's just a normal day in Nederlands, isn't it?
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Colonel Kurz
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Colonel Kurz » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:52 pm

Yup. Neither thanks nor giving.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by dreiser » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:15 am

Colonel Kurz wrote: We all want you to pan the films from the latest rematch.
YouTookMyName wrote: I try to write trash about them, but my efforts to sustain the rancor always peter out.
Heyooo...!
"I hate the dark, the sharks liars. And the stems of cherry..."

Like Someone in Love (Kiarostami, 2012) 4/10
Killing Them Softly (Dominik, 2012) 2/10
The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm (Pal/Levin, 1962) 6/10
The Dark Past (Mate', 1948) 7/10
New Rose Hotel (Ferrara, 1998) 3/10
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Colonel Kurz » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:35 pm

dreiser wrote:


Heyooo...!
I'm reading you.
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:54 pm

My original plan called for the 2003 review to be posted today, but I've been running a couple days behind on everything. That's part of the reason the Pan Multimatch has two months to complete, according to my calendar. I never have had (or made) the time to pull frame grabs from the 2003 Peter Pan film because VLC won't run all the way through on auto-grab the way it does on the other films (where I've been using auto-grabs) because for some reason at every chapter it starts over with number one. It overwrites the first chapter's still frames while the second chapter plays! So I'll have to manually grab frames from that film. That requires more attention-focusing from me. I think I get more useful frames that way, but the auto-grabs have been working out fairly well. And because it's kind of energy-sapping, and I can't do anything else while I watch the movie, I put it off.

Anyway, I have laundry to do today, and there is a lot of additional work for my regular part-time jobs this time of year. Some of that additional work has been driven into my normal (only) day off, Saturday, and I'll be spending the time I might have had for Pan frame-grabbing and review writing doing those work tasks.

My revised plan called for an essay to be posted alongside the review today, but that's not going to happen! Suddenly 8-9 weeks to write about these three films seems way too short. But at last I'm reading the original play! :D

Maybe I can grab frames this evening after all the work is done...if I can stay awake. :shifty:
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Quite-Gone Genie » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:15 pm

Something I used to do when I took screenshots (something I've stopped doing for some reason) was to have a small notepad handy to jot down the times at which I wanted particular images, so finding them later would be a simple matter.
"So, you see, he was condemned to walk in darkness a quadrillion kilometres (we've adopted the metric system, you know)..."
The Devil, The Brothers Karamazov
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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by YouTookMyName » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:21 pm

Quite-Gone Genie wrote:Something I used to do when I took screenshots (something I've stopped doing for some reason) was to have a small notepad handy to jot down the times at which I wanted particular images, so finding them later would be a simple matter.
I've done that in the past, too, but VLC isn't that precise in terms of finding times and I found I was doing more work trying to save work! So I also quit, and went back to frequent typing of Shift-S while I watch. Until I discovered auto-grab, that is.

I've never really investigated the power of VLC or what kind of control you can exert. Learning about the auto-grab feature was simply because a nice person in this thread told me that he uses it.
Gort/YTMN left the forum due to trolling on August 25, 2018.
I had fun. Thanks for reading!

"The wealthy and powerful always remind us that cream rises to the top.
What they fail to acknowledge is that pond scum also rises to the top.
And there is a lot more pond scum in the world than there is cream.
If you become rich and powerful, I hope that you will be cream rather than pond scum." --YTMN

Rematch Resurrection Catalog for Rounds 1-4 New post 180721 -- YTMN's Remake Rematch Thread.
Thread Resurrected 21 Jul 2018. Thread abandoned 1 Aug 2017. Thread COMPLETE 25 May 14 (2d time!)


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Re: YTMN Presents a Remake Rematch Thread

Post by Quite-Gone Genie » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:28 pm

YouTookMyName wrote: I've done that in the past, too, but VLC isn't that precise in terms of finding times and I found I was doing more work trying to save work! So I also quit, and went back to frequent typing of Shift-S while I watch. Until I discovered auto-grab, that is.

I've never really investigated the power of VLC or what kind of control you can exert. Learning about the auto-grab feature was simply because a nice person in this thread told me that he uses it.
Apparently VLC doesn't have a frame-advance function because of some algorithm that allows it to be as versatile as it is when opening just about any media file type.

I only now know of the magic of Shift+S and this "Scene Filter" that I'm looking up right now.
"So, you see, he was condemned to walk in darkness a quadrillion kilometres (we've adopted the metric system, you know)..."
The Devil, The Brothers Karamazov
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