The Random Thoughts Thread

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Oxnard Montalvo
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:03 pm

topherH wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:28 pm
Tim Miller and Linda Hamilton admitted they hated the thumbs up ending from T2. They probably hate themselves.
seems like an appropriately corny ending for a movie that also utilized George Thorogood's "Bad to the Bone" without irony.
Slentert wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:01 pm
Sorry, I needed a place to vent about all this.
also, I don't really have any better job-hunting advice than what was already posted. depending on how badly you need money right now, you could also find some volunteer work to a) stay busy, b) pad your resume, c) do something meaningful, and d) hopefully meet more people that might happen to know of some job openings (assuming it comes up in conversation). but, you know, still have relationships beyond such transactions.

that's all I got. in the past I've gotten jobs through a rehab program, the current job I'm at I got on my own but I was still working at one of those jobs beforehand so it wasn't like I didn't have a back-up.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:14 pm

I don't have much to offer than what's already been said here, but I just wanted to wish you the best of luck, Slent :up: Living alone at a young age is never easy, but I'm sure you'll be able to manage it. Just keep on looking.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by topherH » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:15 pm

Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:03 pm
seems like an appropriately corny ending for a movie that also utilized George Thorogood's "Bad to the Bone" without irony.
Really? I've gone back and forth loving the movie and finding it overrated but not once did I ever looked at that part and cringed or wish it wasn't there, it always felt genuine within Cameron's limits as a filmmaker.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:52 pm

I should clarify that I find that stuff corny in an affectionate way. Aliens has a bit of corniness too. they're still very good movies.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by topherH » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:11 pm

Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:52 pm
I should clarify that I find that stuff corny in an affectionate way. Aliens has a bit of corniness too. they're still very good movies.
Yeah but, T2 > Aliens
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Slentert » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:55 pm

Thank you so much for all the advise, everyone. I'm sorry for being such a drama queen about it. I will try to post something actually movie-related soon.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by topherH » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:44 pm

We live in a world where there was hope the new Jumanji movie would be good?
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Sprague_Dawley » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:23 am

Where the ARSE is the Search function?

I can't find shit around here.

ps WFT is this shit:
You cannot use certain BBCodes: IMG
No pics allowed? Or is this some sort of newbie wanker hazing rubbish? ffs
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by The Nameless One » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:55 pm

Sprague_Dawley wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:23 am
Where the ARSE is the Search function?

I can't find shit around here.

ps WFT is this shit:

No pics allowed? Or is this some sort of newbie wanker hazing rubbish? ffs
Sprague fucking Dawley! Dunno bout the img thing, I just [img] tag em
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Thief » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:55 pm

Sprague_Dawley wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:23 am
Where the ARSE is the Search function?

I can't find shit around here.

ps WFT is this shit:

No pics allowed? Or is this some sort of newbie wanker hazing rubbish? ffs
There are two search options located in the upper section of the webpage: one to search within the topic/thread you're in and another one to search in the overall forum.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by undinum » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:00 pm

FWIW the only part of the search function that works for me is bringing up a particular user's posts. Trying to search through those, or from scratch, or in a particular thread, just results in a blank page
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:38 pm

search function usually doesn't work for me. I just go to google and type in "corrierino" + whatever it is I'm looking for
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Slentert » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:57 pm

BTW, I have a job now. I work as a caretaker for a mentally and physically disabled child. The mother only speaks French and Italian, my French isn't that great but we still manage to communicate to each other everything that's necessary. I'll probably have to look for a second job in the future because it's not that many hours, but for now I'll manage.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:32 pm

Good job! I wish you the very best of luck with it.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Slentert » Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:41 pm

Thanks! This might sound awful, but since I usually feel like a worthless human being, it's nice to be able to actually help someone through my work. I still feel worthless, but at least I'm contributing something.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:47 pm

Admittedly, I've had a couple instances similar to that in the past. It really sucks to go through that, and I don't have a lot of advice to offer, but the best advice I can give is to keep sticking to what you enjoy doing as I find that it really helps on darker days.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Slentert » Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:52 pm

I mean, I'm used to the feeling, and it has been worse before, so I guess I'm fine. I don't want to complain too much about it.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Kenji » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:56 am

Every so often I think about the brief period of my childhood when it seemed like Hollywood wanted to inject as much Sinbad into my life as humanly possible with Houseguest, First Kid, and Jingle All the Way. I guess three films in two years only seems like a lot when you're a kid. Pretty sure watching Houseguest was the hardest my brother and I ever laughed at anything, even topping The Shinning and Homer Badman. We were definitely confusing "talking quickly" with "actually funny."

I'm not sure why I feel compelled to talk about Sinbad. There has to be some significance here. Maybe the word Sinbad is just fun to say.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Stu » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:23 am

Slentert wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:57 pm
BTW, I have a job now. I work as a caretaker for a mentally and physically disabled child. The mother only speaks French and Italian, my French isn't that great but we still manage to communicate to each other everything that's necessary. I'll probably have to look for a second job in the future because it's not that many hours, but for now I'll manage.
Way to go, Slent!
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Oxnard Montalvo » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:49 am

aye, congrats! and best of luck 'cause that sounds way harder than the jobs I was doing when I was your age.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Slentert » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:37 pm

Oxnard Montalvo wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:49 am
aye, congrats! and best of luck 'cause that sounds way harder than the jobs I was doing when I was your age.
Thanks!
Like I said, it's not that many hours, which makes it manageable.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Thief » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:48 pm

Slentert wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:57 pm
BTW, I have a job now. I work as a caretaker for a mentally and physically disabled child. The mother only speaks French and Italian, my French isn't that great but we still manage to communicate to each other everything that's necessary. I'll probably have to look for a second job in the future because it's not that many hours, but for now I'll manage.
Woohoo, congrats! I'm glad and I'm sure you're making a difference for that child.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by DaMU » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:17 pm

Management's been fuckin' up my company for the past two years, so now a bunch of us are successively resigning same day and moving to a better company, and they are panicking, and it is glorious.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Torgo » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:36 pm

Since I'm on Designing Women season 6, I hope it's a hasty transition.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by DaMU » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:59 pm

lol
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by DaMU » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:56 pm

There's some sort of meme or something that's basically, "Oh no, it's the inevitable consequences of my actions" or something like that.

Is anybody familiar? Is this a thing? I remember something like this.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Rock » Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:59 am

DaMU wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:56 pm
There's some sort of meme or something that's basically, "Oh no, it's the inevitable consequences of my actions" or something like that.

Is anybody familiar? Is this a thing? I remember something like this.
I'm not aware of such a meme, but that does sound like the template for 90% of Guardian op-eds. "I was a direct contributor to [awful thing]. Now we must stop [awful thing] at all costs."
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by DaMU » Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:26 am

Found it.

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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by topherH » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:46 pm

I feel like we're building up Bong Joon Ho up to some unspeakable status. Like when you watch his movies now, people won't like them out of spite.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by DaMU » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:42 pm

topherH wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:46 pm
I feel like we're building up Bong Joon Ho up to some unspeakable status. Like when you watch his movies now, people won't like them out of spite.
Already happening. Stock in Bong is falling. It's time to re-invest in Ha Nong-Jin, Kim Ji-Woon, and Kim Ki-Duk.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Slentert » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:05 pm

topherH wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:46 pm
I feel like we're building up Bong Joon Ho up to some unspeakable status. Like when you watch his movies now, people won't like them out of spite.
Yeah, that's often the problem with these sort of things. Film Twitter is already turning him into some kind of meme like they did with Herzog and Lynch (though both of those kinda leaned into it).
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by topherH » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:50 pm

DaMU wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:42 pm
Already happening. Stock in Bong is falling. It's time to re-invest in Ha Nong-Jin, Kim Ji-Woon, and Kim Ki-Duk.
I have no idea who these people are, DAMU. My film expertise has only advanced so far.
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Z |Gavras, 1969| -
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by topherH » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:52 pm

Slentert wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:05 pm
Yeah, that's often the problem with these sort of things. Film Twitter is already turning him into some kind of meme like they did with Herzog and Lynch (though both of those kinda leaned into it).
Twitter is insane.
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Z |Gavras, 1969| -
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by DaMU » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:39 pm

Film Twitter is great because you can see stuff like Scott Derrickson being super-excited for Sam Raimi taking the next Dr. Strange, or Chris McQuarrie offering screenwriting advice, or film critics eagerly introducing newbies to new Korean films, and also it's terrible because of so so so so so much else.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by topherH » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:24 am

What?! I didn't know Spielberg had a daughter.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Thief » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:14 pm

He has four!
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Stu » Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:05 am

This is mostly a repost from Apex Predator's thread, but it's part of a sort of personal thesis I've been developing lately, so I'll post it in here as well; plots holes, on their own, don't ruin movies, because, since plot/premise logic never fundamentally make a film, they never fundamentally break them either. I mean, no one comes out of Raiders Of The Lost Ark saying "Hey, that movie was so exhilarating; the plot made so much sense!" No one comes out of Alien saying "That was so terrifying; the implied backstory behind the Xenomorphs was so logical!". No one comes out of The Godfather saying "That movie was so dramatic; the logistics of the war between the other Families and the Corleones were so clear and un-confusing!". No, they come out of those movies praising them because their plots/premises are a means to an end to what truly makes movies great, which are the underlying feelings they ultimately leave us with, whether they be excitement, horror, dramatic effect, or something else, regardless of whatever holes (which exist in almost every movie ever made, regardless of their overall greatness) exist in them. But, it's supposed to make sense when people try to flip that logic around, and act like plot holes are all of a sudden a make-or-break deal for movies, and having too many of them can completely negate the underlying sensations that those films produce (like in the case of all the nit-picks about A Quiet Place, one of the most prominent recent targets of the Internet's glass-all-empty mindset), the thing that actually determines whether a movie is good or not? I don't think so.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:50 am

I think my issue with plot holes doesn't necessarily have much to do with finding the logic in a film to be bad or flawed as much as it has to do with not being able to relate to the characters who don't question their decisions which feel illogical to me. I had this issue with Midsommar. Many of the characters either gave weak reasons or no reasons at all for staying after the
cliff jumping
scene and I had immense difficulties with relating to the characters in that film. As a result, I was really disappointed with it. As you say, films aren't made by the logic behind their plots/premises, but these issues can sometimes effect other aspects which can make it hard for me to stay engaged in films I have these issues with.

From my reading of the conversation, it seemed like Tak and Wooley weren't able to connect to the POV of the characters who, for instance, didn't bring up the idea of living next to the waterfall. And, if you can't relate to their decisions or motivations, then it's true that their decisions are going to fall flat. I feel like this is a reasonable and fair argument. I don't agree that the shotgun blast is a flaw as I said in Apex's thread, but I understand why people took issue with why they didn't live near the waterfall given that they didn't provide any reasons as to why they shouldn't live there, even though the film worked well enough for me.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:09 pm

Stu wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:05 am
This is mostly a repost from Apex Predator's thread, but it's part of a sort of personal thesis I've been developing lately, so I'll post it in here as well; plots holes, on their own, don't ruin movies, because, since plot/premise logic never fundamentally make a film, they never fundamentally break them either. I mean, no one comes out of Raiders Of The Lost Ark saying "Hey, that movie was so exhilarating; the plot made so much sense!" No one comes out of Alien saying "That was so terrifying; the implied backstory behind the Xenomorphs was so logical!". No one comes out of The Godfather saying "That movie was so dramatic; the logistics of the war between the other Families and the Corleones were so clear and un-confusing!". No, they come out of those movies praising them because their plots/premises are a means to an end to what truly makes movies great, which are the underlying feelings they ultimately leave us with, whether they be excitement, horror, dramatic effect, or something else, regardless of whatever holes (which exist in almost every movie ever made, regardless of their overall greatness) exist in them. But, it's supposed to make sense when people try to flip that logic around, and act like plot holes are all of a sudden a make-or-break deal for movies, and having too many of them can completely negate the underlying sensations that those films produce (like in the case of all the nit-picks about A Quiet Place, one of the most prominent recent targets of the Internet's glass-all-empty mindset), the thing that actually determines whether a movie is good or not? I don't think so.
I think you've got it halfway right. Plot holes don't matter, just so long as they're not so glaring as to rip the tender fabric of the hypnagogic state of the experience of film. Anything so glaring as to throw us out of that state is a problem. Ditto for scene continuity. If you didn't notice that the elven leaf broach was reversed in some shots of Lord of the Rings, it didn't really matter, did it? So long as we don't notice the missing details, they don't really matter. And indeed, the art of good story telling involves knowing what to leave out.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Stu » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:39 am

Popcorn Reviews wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:50 am
I think my issue with plot holes doesn't necessarily have much to do with finding the logic in a film to be bad or flawed as much as it has to do with not being able to relate to the characters who don't question their decisions which feel illogical to me. I had this issue with Midsommar. Many of the characters either gave weak reasons or no reasons at all for staying after the
cliff jumping
scene and I had immense difficulties with relating to the characters in that film. As a result, I was really disappointed with it. As you say, films aren't made by the logic behind their plots/premises, but these issues can sometimes effect other aspects which can make it hard for me to stay engaged in films I have these issues with.

From my reading of the conversation, it seemed like Tak and Wooley weren't able to connect to the POV of the characters who, for instance, didn't bring up the idea of living next to the waterfall. And, if you can't relate to their decisions or motivations, then it's true that their decisions are going to fall flat. I feel like this is a reasonable and fair argument. I don't agree that the shotgun blast is a flaw as I said in Apex's thread, but I understand why people took issue with why they didn't live near the waterfall given that they didn't provide any reasons as to why they shouldn't live there, even though the film worked well enough for me.
Well, I went into much greater detail about this in Apex's thread, but just to make this quick, they shouldn't have explained any reasons for why they didn't live near the waterfall because those were already very self-evident to us (they had no safe, long-term shelter in the area, and no way to construct one safely/quietly).

Anyway, I haven't seen Midsommar yet (and likely never will, for obvious reasons), but that does sound like a fair criticism, as it reminds me of the fundamental reason why I never really enjoyed Inglourious Basterds, because I couldn't relate to those characters either (although that had nothing to do with the logic of their decisions, but because they were sorely underdeveloped in general), so that helps reinforce my point that holes don't ruin a film merely on their own. Don't get me wrong, illogical character decisions can get on my nerves, like the stupid, inconsistent characterization of Sarah in The Lost World, where the film literally has her warning a character not to light a cig because the dinos will be able to smell it from miles away, but then a while later, she attracts a T-Rex to her tent because she left her jacket still soaked in the blood of the T-Rex's child hanging out to dry right above her; ugggh.

That being said though, that one moment wasn't the fundamental flaw of TLW for me, and, while it did get on my nerves, it still wouldn't have been a good movie without that moment of stupidity, and I think the over-emphasis we see online on plot holes in the CinemaSins era is because some people are unwilling to compartmentalize to the degree that they need to, and they want to judge a 90+ minute film based solely off of one or two moments that didn't work for them, rather than the actual whole. It's sort of like the reaction to Illud Divinum Insanus, where Metalheads were solely focusing on the Electronic/Industrial half of the record, and acting like that made it a bad album on the whole, when the rest of it was actually the kind of pretty kick-ass Death Metal you'd expect from a classic Morbid Angel release.
Oh yeah, and at the risk of going off into an unnecessary tangent, your complaint about Midsommar doesn't surprise me, as I had a similar issue with that moment in Hereditary when Steve, for some reason, casually avoids telling Annie about the desecration of her mother's grave, which makes no sense, as, if he did it to avoid upsetting her, how much more upset would she be if she found about it some other way (like, say, firsthand from visiting the gravesite herself), and then found out that he kept it a secret from her? And, if he did it just because he doesn't like dealing with conflict, then that just makes him look like the world's most apathetic asshole, even though that obviously wasn't the film's intent at all; this isn't him just putting off fixing a leaky faucet, movie. It's a decision I honestly think makes less sense than any of the "holes" in A Quiet Place, and it's a reinforcement of that film's tendency to not follow up on certain implications, like the way that Annie publically remarks on how many strangers showed up to her mother's funeral, but then just never bothers to follow up with any of them in private and ask them how they actually knew her mother (which would've been a much better way of introducing Joan into the plot), or the decision to cast an actress with an obvious hereditary condition that leaves her physically disfigured (the ethics of which is its own can of worms), but then it just never factors into the story, nor is it even remarked upon once, which is like if the "666" was discovered on Damien's scalp in The Omen, or witnesses noticed Regan's bed levitating in The Exorcist, or Wendy saw "Redrum" in the mirror in The Shining, but then no one reacted to these phenomena, and they never came into play in any of those films' plots at all; what the hey, huh?
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Stu » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:43 am

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:09 pm
I think you've got it halfway right. Plot holes don't matter, just so long as they're not so glaring as to rip the tender fabric of the hypnagogic state of the experience of film. Anything so glaring as to throw us out of that state is a problem.
Just for the sake of discussion, could you detail an example of an experience-ruining hole in a film?
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:51 pm

Stu wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:43 am
Just for the sake of discussion, could you detail an example of an experience-ruining hole in a film?
Films worth remembering (and thus that come easily to mind) that have plot holes were obviously not ruined by them. It is hard to remember the faceless horde of bad to mediocre films that we forgot because they were, after all, forgettable. I can think of one film experience off the top of my head that was ruined by plot holes. High Tension (2003) has a twist that is not possible given what we saw happen earlier. I was enjoying the film and would have enjoyed it to the end had I not been ejected by the ending.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:23 pm

Stu wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:39 am
Well, I went into much greater detail about this in Apex's thread, but just to make this quick, they shouldn't have explained any reasons for why they didn't live near the waterfall because those were already very self-evident to us (they had no safe, long-term shelter in the area, and no way to construct one safely/quietly).

Anyway, I haven't seen Midsommar yet (and likely never will, for obvious reasons), but that does sound like a fair criticism, as it reminds me of the fundamental reason why I never really enjoyed Inglourious Basterds, because I couldn't relate to those characters either (although that had nothing to do with the logic of their decisions, but because they were sorely underdeveloped in general), so that helps reinforce my point that holes don't ruin a film merely on their own. Don't get me wrong, illogical character decisions can get on my nerves, like the stupid, inconsistent characterization of Sarah in The Lost World, where the film literally has her warning a character not to light a cig because the dinos will be able to smell it from miles away, but then a while later, she attracts a T-Rex to her tent because she left her jacket still soaked in the blood of the T-Rex's child hanging out to dry right above her; ugggh.

That being said though, that one moment wasn't the fundamental flaw of TLW for me, and, while it did get on my nerves, it still wouldn't have been a good movie without that moment of stupidity, and I think the over-emphasis we see online on plot holes in the CinemaSins era is because some people are unwilling to compartmentalize to the degree that they need to, and they want to judge a 90+ minute film based solely off of one or two moments that didn't work for them, rather than the actual whole. It's sort of like the reaction to Illud Divinum Insanus, where Metalheads were solely focusing on the Electronic/Industrial half of the record, and acting like that made it a bad album on the whole, when the rest of it was actually the kind of pretty kick-ass Death Metal you'd expect from a classic Morbid Angel release.
Oh yeah, and at the risk of going off into an unnecessary tangent, your complaint about Midsommar doesn't surprise me, as I had a similar issue with that moment in Hereditary when Steve, for some reason, casually avoids telling Annie about the desecration of her mother's grave, which makes no sense, as, if he did it to avoid upsetting her, how much more upset would she be if she found about it some other way (like, say, firsthand from visiting the gravesite herself), and then found out that he kept it a secret from her? And, if he did it just because he doesn't like dealing with conflict, then that just makes him look like the world's most apathetic asshole, even though that obviously wasn't the film's intent at all; this isn't him just putting off fixing a leaky faucet, movie. It's a decision I honestly think makes less sense than any of the "holes" in A Quiet Place, and it's a reinforcement of that film's tendency to not follow up on certain implications, like the way that Annie publically remarks on how many strangers showed up to her mother's funeral, but then just never bothers to follow up with any of them in private and ask them how they actually knew her mother (which would've been a much better way of introducing Joan into the plot), or the decision to cast an actress with an obvious hereditary condition that leaves her physically disfigured (the ethics of which is its own can of worms), but then it just never factors into the story, nor is it even remarked upon once, which is like if the "666" was discovered on Damien's scalp in The Omen, or witnesses noticed Regan's bed levitating in The Exorcist, or Wendy saw "Redrum" in the mirror in The Shining, but then no one reacted to these phenomena, and they never came into play in any of those films' plots at all; what the hey, huh?
I don't have the energy to read through the entire discussion again to see if my counterpoint was brought up in the discussion, but even though It's been a while since I've seen it, I was thinking they could've just bought a tent at a store, like one in the city they were in at the beginning. Obviously, you can't build an entire house as it would make too much noise as you brought up in the discussion, but I think there's more options you can choose from. More simpler ones. Again, I wasn't too bothered by this, but I think an argument can definitely be made here.

I wouldn't skip Midsommar just because you didn't like Hereditary; assuming that's your reason, that is. It's still worth watching as it has some areas it nails exceptionally well. I mean, I didn't care for The Seventh Seal, which was the first film I saw from Bergman, but the other films I've seen from him are all really great to perfect.

As I said though, I think not being able to relate to the characters in Midsommar also goes back to the plot holes with the film, meaning that I wouldn't have had that issue if it wasn't for the plot holes which took me out of the film. So, technically, the plot holes are part of what ruined the film as they caused me to have other issues with the film. I think that's an example of plot holes ruining a film as, without them, my issues with the film would be non-existent.

With Hereditary, I admit it. I don't get your criticisms. If your argument is that the film could've used another round of editing and that it's still pretty good in spite of those issues, I can get behind that. I just don't think that what you mentioned is substantial or significant enough to dislike the film. They just don't strike me as major issues as much as minor issues or nitpicks, especially in light of how well-crafted the film is in other areas.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:32 pm

Stu wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:05 am
But, it's supposed to make sense when people try to flip that logic around, and act like plot holes are all of a sudden a make-or-break deal for movies, and having too many of them can completely negate the underlying sensations that those films produce (like in the case of all the nit-picks about A Quiet Place, one of the most prominent recent targets of the Internet's glass-all-empty mindset), the thing that actually determines whether a movie is good or not? I don't think so.
I can't speak to others who have criticized A Quiet Place, and I'll take your word for it that there are people who are saying it's a bad movie or that it's entirely "ruined" by the plot elements we've discussed.

But I would say that my point of view on the film is far from "glass all empty". I have/had many nice things to say about the film. I wrote positively about it when I first viewed it. I think I gave it a B or B+ type rating.

It is true for me that having a certain number of issues with a film (not restricted to plot holes) does eventually push me out of the reality of the film. And once that happens, yes, any emotions or intellectual engagement I would have from the film falls flat for the most part. And I am hard pressed to think of (or recommend) a movie as being "good" if I was disengaged for a significant portion of it. To that extent, plot holes (or other issues) can be make-or-break.

I'm sure that there are people who went in to watching A Quiet Place ready to hate it just because it had gotten praise. No doubt. And I'm equally sure that there are people who take more delight in criticizing and tearing down art than appreciating it and seeing it for the good that it has. But I'm in neither of those groups, and painting everyone who took issue with the film with the same brush is a bit reductive.

I told you in the other thread that my friend just cannot take seriously films/TV that incorrectly portray CPR (and further the purpose and effect of delivering a shock to someone's heart). I am familiar with both CPR and AED usage and I constantly see that it's being done wrong and I just don't care that much. So is she right and I'm wrong? Am I right and she's wrong? Every individual viewer has an independent experience of being immersed in a film and we can't police whether or not someone fails to connect with a film for the "wrong" reasons.

I'll give you some examples of "experience ruining" plot holes/issues (though that phrase is really dramatic--more like "pulled me out of the film, probably won't recommend it or rewatch it"):

1) Won't name the title. Mystery/thriller film. A masked killer is offing people. There are several sequences where we see the masked killer. He has very distinct eyes. They are so distinct that I realize which actor (because of course the killer is someone the detective knows, right?) it is. Only later in the film we find out the killer is a different character. A character who doesn't even have the same color eyes. I'm waiting for them to realize their mistake. Nope. We are supposed to get that this is the killer. This bothers me TREMENDOUSLY. Years later I read on the IMDb trivia page that in order to confuse the audience, Distinct-Eyes-Actor sometimes played the killer even though his character wasn't the killer at all. I totally call shenanigans on this and it does make me think negatively about the film.

2) This is a plot issue and not a plot hole. To me a plot hole is a direct contradiction of fact within the film's universe. This is an example of a plot element making no sense to me. Major spoilers! In the film Teeth at the very end we see that the main character is
traveling around, willingly having sex with men so that she can emasculate them with her vagina teeth. There are several reasons why this makes zero sense to me. It's presented as being empowering. But she is not protected in any way from any non-vaginal sexual assault. I mean, sorry to be graphic, but not all sexual assaults are penis-in-vagina, which is what she's apparently banking on. She doesn't have super strength. There's nothing to stop her from being physically hurt or overpowered by two or more men. And that's if you're willing to accept the idea that a young woman would be okay with having sex with scary/gross men just for the opportunity to mutilate them. This isn't a plot hole. The character is making a choice. But it's so obviously problematic to me that I can't take it seriously and as a result I don't have very positive feelings toward the film.
3) In Darkness (MAJOR SPOILERS!) In the final act of this film
we learn that the main character is not actually blind. Let's set aside that she's able to pass really, really well for a blind person. This revelation makes at least two sequences make zero sense. You could argue that she'd always "act blind" even when she's alone because that way she'll always be in the habit of it. So, for example, she'd act blind in the shower or other times when she is alone. You could even say, "Well, maybe she's paranoid and thinks someone might be watching her, so she has to always act blind." I'll accept that. But in two different sequences she acts blind even though it could blow her cover. She drops something on the floor and needs to pick it up. It's clearly in her line of sight. Why does she continue to grope for it on the floor?! There's literally no reason, and her delay in picking it up means that she is almost caught by some really dangerous people. It's a scene intended to fool the audience, but it makes no sense within the film itself.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Stu » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:05 am

Popcorn Reviews wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:23 pm
I don't have the energy to read through the entire discussion again to see if my counterpoint was brought up in the discussion, but even though It's been a while since I've seen it, I was thinking they could've just bought a tent at a store, like one in the city they were in at the beginning. Obviously, you can't build an entire house as it would make too much noise as you brought up in the discussion, but I think there's more options you can choose from. More simpler ones. Again, I wasn't too bothered by this, but I think an argument can definitely be made here.

I wouldn't skip Midsommar just because you didn't like Hereditary; assuming that's your reason, that is. It's still worth watching as it has some areas it nails exceptionally well. I mean, I didn't care for The Seventh Seal, which was the first film I saw from Bergman, but the other films I've seen from him are all really great to perfect.

As I said though, I think not being able to relate to the characters in Midsommar also goes back to the plot holes with the film, meaning that I wouldn't have had that issue if it wasn't for the plot holes which took me out of the film. So, technically, the plot holes are part of what ruined the film as they caused me to have other issues with the film. I think that's an example of plot holes ruining a film as, without them, my issues with the film would be non-existent.

With Hereditary, I admit it. I don't get your criticisms. If your argument is that the film could've used another round of editing and that it's still pretty good in spite of those issues, I can get behind that. I just don't think that what you mentioned is substantial or significant enough to dislike the film. They just don't strike me as major issues as much as minor issues or nitpicks, especially in light of how well-crafted the film is in other areas.
Here's the post where I went into the most detail about why it wouldn't have been practical for them to live next to the waterfall, if you're interested. Anyway, I'm not saying that it's a 100% certainty that I'll never watch Midsommar, it's just not particularly likely in the near future, considering that I don't have much time these days to watch even movies I'm actually interested in, plus the fact that its critical average on RT is at least 7 points lower than his other movie, which I obviously didn't like in the first place (although I am like you in the sense that, while The Seventh Seal was my first Bergman, and I didn't think much of it either, I still watched Persona for the first time last year anyway, and ended up liking it a lot).

At any rate, I feel that your complaint still backs up my theory about plot holes on their own not fundamentally ruining movies on the whole, the key words being "on their own", because it sounds like the thing that hurt that film the most for you was how unrelatable the characters were, which is something that can be caused by implausible character decisions, but also by having underdeveloped characters, so that's the real fundamental flaw with the film, regardless of which individual factor caused it.

And my complaints about Hereditary weren't to make the point that it was ruined by any plot holes (because I obviously don't take that stance on any movie), I made them because, besides it being fun to complain about that movie, they help make my overall point about part of the movie's real crippling flaw, which was how sloppy Aster's fundamental approach to it was, as it felt like a random smorgasbord of genre cliches, images, and setpieces in search of a coherent experience (which he basically already admitted was the case), without any sense of coherency or control to it, and those ignored implications are just a smaller symptom of the film's overall sickness. I didn't even detail all of them, either; what about
the way both parents are shown to be hyper-aware of Charlie's allergy, but then both of them forget her Epipen not just once, but twice, but the second time they forget, the movie just glosses over that detail when it clearly should've been a much bigger deal?
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Ergill » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:12 am

I agree, Stu. I also don't like Hereditary because Aster is very, very Jewish!

*wink*
*wink*
*wink*

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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Takoma1 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:34 am

Stu wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:05 am
I didn't even detail all of them, either; what about
the way both parents are shown to be hyper-aware of Charlie's allergy, but then both of them forget her Epipen not just once, but twice, but the second time they forget, the movie just glosses over that detail when it clearly should've been a much bigger deal?
That's actually . . . very accurate.

Picture this:
you are on a field trip, responsible for 24 children, most of whom have parent chaperones. For a large part of the trip, parents and children are allowed to leave on their own to wander around, including going to get lunch. 15 minutes after everyone disperses, you realize you still have your medical bag, with ALL THE EPI-PENS/INHALERS, including one for a child who has a very serious food allergy. In a panic, you call the parent. "I have [child]'s Epi-pen!" you say. "Do you want me to run it over to you?!". And the parent replies, "No, we're alright. He knows what to eat and what not to eat."

A shocking number of people with serious allergies do not carry their epi-pens with them. They are also expensive and they have a limited shelf life, so many families only own one or two: one lives at school and the other lives at home and often does not travel out of the house.

It doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't bring it to a funeral. It also doesn't surprise me that in the tense exchange getting Peter to take Charlie along to the party she doesn't tell him to remember to get the epi-pen (if he would even normally take it along).

If you're going to nitpick anything from that whole sequence it should be that Peter fails to call 911. When someone is going to be administered an epi-pen, which Charlie clearly is, you immediately call 911. It's a basic part of epi-pen procedure and something the whole family should have taken to heart. Among other things, they sometimes have to administer a second dose and a person having had a hit of it needs medical monitoring.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Stu » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:07 am

Melvin Butterworth wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:51 pm
Films worth remembering (and thus that come easily to mind) that have plot holes were obviously not ruined by them. It is hard to remember the faceless horde of bad to mediocre films that we forgot because they were, after all, forgettable. I can think of one film experience off the top of my head that was ruined by plot holes. High Tension (2003) has a twist that is not possible given what we saw happen earlier. I was enjoying the film and would have enjoyed it to the end had I not been ejected by the ending.
I have heard that criticism of High Tension's big twist before, but I haven't seen it for myself yet, so I can't comment; the closest thing to a movie-destroying plot hole I can think of would be the twist at the end of Unbreakable, where we're supposed to believe that
Mr. Glass, an incredibly brittle character who earlier couldn't chase down another man without breaking his entire body in the process, was somehow the criminal mastermind behind all these not-so-natural disasters, and that he somehow also did them all single-handedly. Then the movie just yada-yada-yada texted us out, as if M. Knight couldn't wait to just get it all over with.
That being said, however, at the most it's just 5 minutes (if even that) of a 107 minute film, one that, up to that point had an intriguing premise, an incredibly haunting tone, and a unique, amazing sense of style, so, ludicrous or not, the bad twist hardly makes Unbreakable a bad movie in my eyes.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Melvin Butterworth » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:21 am

Stu wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:07 am
I have heard that criticism of High Tension's big twist before, but I haven't seen it for myself yet, so I can't comment; the closest thing to a movie-destroying plot hole I can think of would be the twist at the end of Unbreakable, where we're supposed to believe that
Mr. Glass, an incredibly brittle character who earlier couldn't chase down another man without breaking his entire body in the process, was somehow the criminal mastermind behind all these not-so-natural disasters, and that he somehow also did them all single-handedly. Then the movie just yada-yada-yada texted us out, as if M. Knight couldn't wait to just get it all over with.
That being said, however, at the most it's just 5 minutes (if even that) of a 107 minute film, one that, up to that point had an intriguing premise, an incredibly haunting tone, and a unique, amazing sense of style, so, ludicrous or not, the bad twist hardly makes Unbreakable a bad movie in my eyes.
I think you're right that we're much more forgiving of so-called "cinema sins" than YouTube movie nitpickers would have us believe. Especially if it is just one bad turn.

I do think that the enjoyment and quality of a film can be harmed by glaring errors and that we want to do as much a we can not to try the patience of the audience. In most cases, however, I think it is a lot more like your experience of Unbreakable than it is like my experience of High Tension. I think that a big reason for this may be that a film with a lot of problems with internal logic typically has a lot of other problems and is thus just regarded as a "bad movie." In these cases there is so much wrong that we don't chalk it up to anything in particular.

Naming a film that was fantastic until one plot hole emerged is harder to do, because I think that you are correct that this stuff doesn't matter nearly as much as we usually pretend it does. If it is a good film, then it is a good film, albeit with a flaw.

I think this quotation is relevant,
In fact, in the “Making of Jaws” feature-length documentary, available on the DVD and Blu-ray, novel author Peter Benchley recounts his conflict with Spielberg over the ending of the book versus the movie:

I said “Steven, that is completely unbelievable. It can’t happen. A shark does not bite down on a SCUBA tank and explode like an oil refinery.” He said, “I don’t care.” He said, “If I have got them for two hours, they will believe whatever I do for the next three minutes because I’ve got them in my hands, and I want the audience on their feet screaming at the end, ‘Yes, yes! This is what should happen to this animal!’”… Reality may be great and truth may be wonderful, but none of it holds a candle to believability…. His ending brought people to their feet, screaming.
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Re: The Random Thoughts Thread

Post by Popcorn Reviews » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:46 pm

Stu wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:05 am
Here's the post where I went into the most detail about why it wouldn't have been practical for them to live next to the waterfall, if you're interested. Anyway, I'm not saying that it's a 100% certainty that I'll never watch Midsommar, it's just not particularly likely in the near future, considering that I don't have much time these days to watch even movies I'm actually interested in, plus the fact that its critical average on RT is at least 7 points lower than his other movie, which I obviously didn't like in the first place (although I am like you in the sense that, while The Seventh Seal was my first Bergman, and I didn't think much of it either, I still watched Persona for the first time last year anyway, and ended up liking it a lot).

At any rate, I feel that your complaint still backs up my theory about plot holes on their own not fundamentally ruining movies on the whole, the key words being "on their own", because it sounds like the thing that hurt that film the most for you was how unrelatable the characters were, which is something that can be caused by implausible character decisions, but also by having underdeveloped characters, so that's the real fundamental flaw with the film, regardless of which individual factor caused it.

And my complaints about Hereditary weren't to make the point that it was ruined by any plot holes (because I obviously don't take that stance on any movie), I made them because, besides it being fun to complain about that movie, they help make my overall point about part of the movie's real crippling flaw, which was how sloppy Aster's fundamental approach to it was, as it felt like a random smorgasbord of genre cliches, images, and setpieces in search of a coherent experience (which he basically already admitted was the case), without any sense of coherency or control to it, and those ignored implications are just a smaller symptom of the film's overall sickness. I didn't even detail all of them, either; what about
the way both parents are shown to be hyper-aware of Charlie's allergy, but then both of them forget her Epipen not just once, but twice, but the second time they forget, the movie just glosses over that detail when it clearly should've been a much bigger deal?
You made some good counter points in that post, but I still feel like they could've spent much more time there than they did in the film. Maybe not live there, but spend more time than they usually did (such as spending most of the days there and going back to the house at night). I can't imagine this being a worse scenario than their current one. Apparently, the scene of the father showing the waterfall to his son was the first time he saw the waterfall. I can understand anyone being confused by this.

For what it's worth though, I think you're probably right that plot holes aren't substantial enough to ruin a film on their own and that I'm probably overestimating their impact on a film. I still feel like you can criticize a film for them, but I wouldn't say that they're substantial enough to ruin a film. I haven't seen High Tension, so I can't comment there, but I don't have any other to name examples offhand where I was enjoying a movie and then a plot hole or several plot holes ruined the experience for me.
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